patrick.net

Man. Me and you sound like twins or something because I too am into audio, working on cars, and tinkering in the garage. The thing is that I didn't have to buy to have these things. I rent a large 4 Bdrm house in the East Bay for about $1,750 with another housemate who's seldom home. We have a garage, a long driveway ( room for 4-5 cars) and a sizable yard. The thing about your audio comments is that buying a house doesn't mean you're going to be able to suddenly crank up the volume: You're going to have neighbors and they're likely going to get pissed if they hear thudding bass all day. I also have a sort of cut-off time when I stop working on cars if it involves things like grinders, air wrenches, and other loud things... which means most of the time I quit by 9:00PM. I'm also careful to make sure that if I'm working with things like carb cleaner, oil, or whatnot that I do a careful job of cleaning those things up. I have a fairly large stereo out in the garage too. But I seldom crank the thing up that loud and I turn it off by 7-8PM.

Basically we rent what you would like to buy and as far as I'm concerned if you plan on staying in a major metro area that as crammed with people as the Bay Area, you'll have limitations as far as what you can realistically do. I say this because I grew up in a rural area where we NEVER gave a second thought about working on things in the shop until 2:00AM. I felt like I had a lot more freedom in that kind of environment: You can own a big chunk of land far from the neighbors for cheap, build whatever you want, when you want, and basically have a little piece of paradise to yourself. Out here I feel that even if you own a home, you really don't "own" it per say because 10-20 feet away is another house right up next to yours and as such you have to constantly remain reasonably quite and courteous for the sake of your neighbors.

This is one of the many reasons we're probably moving out of here once we've saved a big enough stack of cash to buy our own chunk of land somewhere else- maybe 10-20 minutes out of some 2nd tier smaller metro like Nashville, Austin, or whatnot.

Good points. I can definitely see how living around here can put serious limitations on projects. When I was using my parents' garage for projects (I still can if I drive there, but I feel bad making a mess in there), I had similar rules about power tools & noise.

If I did have my own garage around here, part of the plan would be to strip it to the studs & install some heavy acoustic damping materials on all sides & in the rafters. With some time, money & effort you can definitely build yourself an acoustically isolated space. It will be a bit expensive, but it is an option if you own (or the landlord is OK with you doing it).

For now, I am considering a membership at The Sawdust Shop in Sunnyvale. You pay monthly dues and get to use a fully equipped shop with more tools than any individual would ever fit into a garage. Another option I have considered is renting a U-Store type space & using it as a workshop. A number of them around here have small bathrooms & a little office...if I could get a few people in on one, it would be a great alternative. Those places are usually pretty far from houses, so noise would be less of an issue too.

In mid 20s, married, with a dog. Have been renting since graduating college. Would like a yard and privacy and ability to update without having to change things back the way they were. Rates are super low and rent is increasing yearly (even though I fight it). It's a PITA to keep moving each year to find a cheaper place to rent from.

I live in central Florida area.

When I have been a renter at various points, I have done many of those things. It's easy enough to have a yard or detached walls as a renter -- just rent a house. I think the exception would be landscaping-type things (e.g. I'd plant some fruit-bearing trees, for example). However, it's possible to do such things in planter boxes, as friends of mine have done.

To ryan7013's point, it's not impossible to be a longer-term renter. When I have rented, I have signed leases longer than 1 year, and certainly even stayed somewhere more than 1 year even as month-to-month for a significant period of time.

I've been fairly lucky with my renting and working on cars situation. My previous place didn't have a garage. But it had a couple of parking spaces and believe it or not I restored a 55' Ford over the course of a summer in one of the spots- no garage of nothing. The Landlord was fine with it as long as I kept it cleaned up. The same goes for my current landlord. In fact I sometimes help him fix his cars. I still work on most of my cars outside in the driveway because there's more ventilation and room.

Now- to directly answer your question about "Why I want to buy", well it basically comes down to a few things- some of which I will unashamedly admit to.

1: I hate debt and so does my Wife. So the idea is to buy a house outright for cash. Hence the plan to move away from here. Doing so would enact a plan in which suddenly jobs and careers would become less important and the requirement to make a high income becomes unnecessary. With no house or car payments ( I keep cars forever) We would have very little in terms of monthly expenses. The house in this sense would basically provide the means to cut out a major monthly expense. My target max price is between 150-200k.

2: Yes... I sort of like the idea of owning a house. Sort of a nice "Cozy" feeling. That said- and going back to No.1, buying one here in the Bay Area would scare the crap out of me. The prices means having a relentlessly due payment, one that would be due every month and one that would likely be a lot more than what I am paying in rent. But owning- as in I actually own the house- is a nice idea.

3: I collect a lot of junk. I like the idea of having a permanent place to display it. In the back of my head I have this fear that someday when we move- its going to be a nightmare because over the past 8 years we've amassed a LOT of junk. Moving that will be a big undertaking. It would be nice knowing that since we own the house, all the stuff in it is somewhat permanent.

If I live in a place where it's cheaper to buy than rent, it is nice to have the personal space and avoid the hassle of moving. Also having the personal space means that you can design and maintain your livable space like you want without any landlord restrictions.

I do not like getting into huge debt which is why I hate 30 yr mortgages. With a 10 or 15 yr mortgage, if I have the ability to service the debt in a meaningful fashion - then that debt is productive and helps me get to the future where I don't have to pay rent at all. When I try to see if the mortgage on a 10-15yr loan covers the rent, I don't find any houses that are desirable LOL. The whole real estate market is tilted towards ensuring you get into long-term debt.

austrian...just because you get a 30 year mortgage doesn't mean you have to take 30 years to pay it off...

Hey Edvard2 - good idea I am 20 minutes outside of Nashville now - 2 houses (1 rental) on 8 acres. Have lived in apartments and houses in bay area and LA for 20+ years so I feel I have a good comparison.

Primarily when married with kids it is more about day to day conveniences of life and financial. Buying settles you in to a commute, school zone, predictable places to get your stuff done. Predictable payments, enjoyment of the home when you can adjust it to suit you and know the investment is yours. I think it is age related too...mid 40's you just don't want to have to keep starting over anymore. That might be boring to a single person in their 20's.

I did earlier on get the benefit of trying on different lifestyles that came with moving just about every 2-5 years though it does come at a price. Every time you move the old furniture and decorations don't quite fit and you end up spending a lot to get the place to your taste from house to apartment to house again.

It's cool to think back on how fun it was to live in an apartment in Marina del Rey but in the 1990's renting a 2 bdrm apt was $1250 - you can imagine what it is now...over $2k. Lifestyle factors are more important than the money though I think.

ryan7013 says

just because you get a 30 year mortgage doesn't mean you have to take 30 years to pay it off...

that's true, you can try and pre-pay. But what I'm trying to say is that house prices are valued with the assumption that a 30-yr mortgage will be taken (that being the most common). Prices tend to remain at elevated levels. the fact that Americans don't mind paying interest for their entire life-span has been exploited to the fullest!

Not sure why you think you need to buy a loan to have any of that I do that in my rental now. it's all in you head folks. move if the landloard won't let you live the way you want.
Debt is Slavery.

bmwman91 says

For me, my reasons for wanting a SFH & worrying (probably too much) about it are, in no particular order:
1 - Garage as a workshop for a)loudspeaker building & b) woodworking
2 - Garage for car projects
3 - No attached walls...for making proper use of reason 1a. A 150lb subwoofer that hits -3dB at 12Hz is what some family members have nicknamed "the lease-breaker."
4 - A yard & long-term residence for pets (cats, probably).
5 - A yard & long-term residence for kids (GOD HELP ME IF I CHOOSE THIS SOMEDAY!)

Just because you own a loan doesn't mean you can do any of this HOA suck
think out of the box and if the box is holding you down then move to one that allows you to do what you want.
debt is slavery

some of you folks just love debt i think. Actually the VA JAy JAy loves debt. keeps the pole right where they want them ,.......working, tired, controlled.
debt is slavery
be free.

Americans don't mind paying interest for their entire life-span has been exploited to the fullest!

...true...and a renter will pay rent for their entire life span also unless they can find someone with a paid off house to move in with!

Katy Perry is wise.

I will add a small bit of wisdom for the 20 something males. If you are considering a woman for marriage look at her mother. If the mother is fat, she will get fat also after marriage probably. Its genetics and learned.

But that being said, my 'backup retirement plan' is to live with a fat girl in her paid off house! lol. (I'm serious - it should be very easy to arrange this if you are a dude over 60 who has his shit together except maybe not financially. Its beats being homeless or working at walmart....-maybe- lol).

Katy Perry says

some of you folks just love debt i think. Actually the VA JAy JAy loves debt. keeps the pole right where they want them ,.......working, tired, controlled.

debt is slavery

be free.

There is some truth here. I wouldn't mind renting a house with some other people, but my fiancee is not on-board with that. She also balks at the idea of renting a house since it is generally more costly than renting an apartment, and she doesn't see the point in paying any rent that is even close to a mortgage. Basically, everything is a compromise. I live in an apartment & have to concede some lifestyle bits, but I get a 6 minute bike ride as a commute and somewhat reasonable rent. The alternative would be to pay much less rent in a house where I could do more of what I want, but then have to spend a LOT more time commuting. It is what it is, and I am OK with this. I'd rather have more free time to pursue all the other hobbies that don't require a garage than spend hours driving every week, which would detract from my time & energy for garage-hobbies anyway.

F-it, I am renting a storage space for use as a workshop! I hate the idea of debt, particularly when corrupt banks that manipulate the government to everyone's detriment would sell my down payment, that they gave me 1% APY on (at best), back to me at 4%+.

Pockyclips, if that is true then I guess my fiancee will still be pretty attractive when she is 50. Hopefully you are right.

renting a storage space to use for toys/hobbies sounds great.

especially in this downturn it might be more affordable (vacant commercial everywhere)

Also one item to consider is possibly renting an entire/or most of a garage from someone you trust. I am doing this for way cheap and my only complaint is the long distance from my crappy apt.

Espcially if you know any single women who own a home, they do not normally fully utilize the garage (unless they are hoarders)

Good point. For now, the closest safe garage I know of is my parents' garage. I like visiting them, but I do try not to "use them" for their garage. It is sort of a crappy drive on weekdays anyway.

None of my friends in my age group (26-30) own anything with a garage either. I think that a lot of people these days are fine with a carport, and no yard to maintain themselves.

There are many storage spaces around. I will check pricing...

The reason we prefer ownership as opposed to leasing is called the "BUNDLE OF RIGHTS"
What Does Bundle Of Rights Mean?
A set of legal rights afforded to the real estate title holder. The bundle of rights includes the right of possession (the property is owned by the title holder), the right of control (the owner controls the property's use), the right of exclusion (the holder can deny people access to the property), the right of enjoyment (the holder can use the property in ANY legal manner) and the right of disposition. (sell it, rent it, farm it, paint it, etc.)

I need a garage too !

I personally never cared about houses until 2001, at which time, my longtime landlady (started renting from her at 18) lost her mind and started doing really weird shit...long story.

It was a great place while it lasted -- a large brick prewar flat above an old florist shop across from a 7-11 (yeah!). After 5pm weekdays, I could crank up the hi-fi and engage in all manner of clang and clamor I fancied until 7AM the following morning. Weekends were all mine. It was a blissful environment for subsistence and I got a lot of good work done in that building. In all those years I honestly never ever thought of buying a house. Whenever someone occasionally suggested it, I all but recoiled. It seemed pedestrian -- the first step toward Dullsville. When I left my building for the last time, I kissed the walls.

It wasn't until I had to start shopping around for other more compromising rentals that I thought about actually buying. Mostly, I no longer wanted to have my living situation subject to the increasingly strange and sudden whims of another human being.

Sadly, my wife and I had the cruel misfortune of having our careers and salaries hit stride just as the bubble started inflating -- so much so that it seemed like the growth in housing costs each year were pegged to the growth of our combined remuneration and savings power. It was very bizarre and frustrating, as this was before I had even the vaguest understanding of asset speculation or credit bubbles. Long story less long: I held off buying, despite the behest and tortured math of friends and colleagues because it just didn't make sense to me at all. The whole mania surrounding housing really grossed me out. It felt like Amway or something.

Anyway, the things I want from a place are the same today as they were way back then, and that is basic control over my domicile. I need a space where I know I won't show up from work one day and discover a work crew bricking in a window. I also fancy the stability a permanent residence allows for starting large involved projects. Among other things, I like restoring old musical instruments and fucking around with old cars (another commenter mentioned having an old '55; I had a '55 Ford Victoria up until three years ago) and it doesn't really do to have an eviscerated automobile in the garage when your living arrangements are one rent hike away from being upended. I've been lucky, but I don't like to bank on luck.

Finally, the look and feel of a place is important. You realize this most when you come back to a place from a trip; if you don't feel glad to see it as the stinky taxi cab pulls up out front, then it's probably not a very energizing environment -- which means it's probably not an environment which helps your gears turn or puts you in the right mood to do whatever it is you like to do. I've lived in some hovels where I didn't even want to listen to certain albums. Sorry if that sounds like NAR claptrap, but yeah, atmosphere is important.

So, yeah. All that.

For me, owning a home for many reasons:

1- garage and yard for projects, keeping new cars safe and clean
2- privacy
3- tax benefits
4- more quiet than apartment
5- more space

SJ says

For me, owning a home for many reasons:

1- garage and yard for projects, keeping new cars safe and clean

2- privacy

3- tax benefits

4- more quiet than apartment

5- more space

Can you do those while renting a house instead of buying the same?

1) More living space - A 1200 ft2 apartment with attic and no garage. it gets crowded quick when you have kids (and all the stuff that comes with them). Plus an extra bedroom would be nice.

2) Land (a want, more than a need) so I can do what I want. Tell the kids to run around out back and not have to worry (as much) about them. Grow a garden Gabey. Have a place to hang out and entertain guests. I can't explain why - but I've always wanted a nice big chunk of land to call my own.

That's really it. Sure I could rent a house, but most of the ones in my area are people trying to cover their ridiculous holding costs, so buying wouldn't cost that much more than renting an equivalent space.

That said, buying will more than double my current monthly outlay, but of course, if I were to buy, I'd have twice the space.

I'm closer to buying - but its still darn hard to pull the trigger. When your committing that much cash, time and effort, you want it to be as close to "perfect" as possible. A "starter" home does not make economic sense in my market. When I do buy, it's going to be a place I'm in for the long haul.

I've hit the point where I want to buy. Mostly because the majority of rental housing stock is not all that nice, and I'm getting tired of low-end kitchen appliances, cheap carpets, thin walls, and no ability to change anything.

Most recently I tried renting a condo unit and it's been a cut above the standard rental housing, but now the owner wants to sell the place (asking price is way over what I am able to pay, sadly).

So rather than go through it all over again I am looking very seriously at buying. I'm sick of not having control over where I live.

I only bought because I moved from San Diego to a rural part of North Carolina. I couldn't believe how cheap it was out here and plenty of land. I have a garden and a nice house that has a cheap price. Rents are higher than my mortgage. If a big collapse happens, the house is cheap so I fall at a lower rate. My primary driver for buying was rents. It was break even when I did my calculations from Patrick's website.

my first house was bought because i couldnt stand being able to hear neighbors through the walls the apartment.
and every time a new neighbor moved in it was a crapshoot as to how their lifestyle would impact me.

yes you can rent a house but living in somebody elses house you can never get too comfortable.

For example Im remodeling my laundry room/work shop and im thinking of install some of those nice husky tool cabinets like these here
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202600938/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Its hard to do nice stuff like this when your renting youre kind of forced to live with the hand your dealt.