patrick.net

Exactly. This isn't the free market capitalism we were sold on. This is collusion and cronyism. Unfortunately, because it's funded through offshore capital flight, we Americans have less control over the process than we should, but that doesn't mean we're powerless. We just need to get our heads in the right place and figure out who our enemies really are.

OK, maybe the USPS needs to raise prices and downsize. Fine. Still a screaming bargain for consumers, and it's basic national infrastructure and doesn't even consume any tax money.

My point is that FedEx and UPS have a big motive to kill the US post office so that you absolutely must pay them $10 for what cost you less than 50 cents before.

When they are done bribing Congress, you will have to pay over TWENTY TIMES as much to send a simple letter.

That's why this corruption is so profitable.

I see your point Patrick, but the USPS is fighting a losing battle. Besides the lobbyists, technology is working against them as that chart shows above.

On that note, almost all I seem to get in the mail is bills and junkmail anyhow.

Oy! My point here is that the USPS is not the problem. Double the cost of sending a letter, consolidate some post offices, not a big problem.

Letting FedEx and UPS twist our laws to force you to spend twenty times as much to send a letter, now that's a big problem.

You will still need to send letters. Will you be allowed to send a letter at a reasonable rate, or will you be milked like a captive cow by some company that paid a huge bribe to trap you by law?

Do you approve of letting whoever pays the biggest bribe eliminate their competitors by law, so as to raise the price you must pay for some essential service?

Oy! My point here is that the USPS is not the problem. Double the cost of sending a letter, consolidate some post offices, not a big problem.

Letting FedEx and UPS twist our laws to force you to spend twenty times as much to send a letter, now that's a big problem.

I have no clue why people in general can't grasp this.

Do you approve of letting whoever pays the biggest bribe eliminate their competitors by law, so as to raise the price you must pay for some essential service?

tts says

I have no clue why people in general can't grasp this.

Perhaps there are better examples of this at opensecrets?

Industry Total
Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $2,204,027,124
Insurance $1,577,725,579
Electric Utilities $1,487,339,178
Business Associations $1,232,513,899
Computers/Internet $1,206,517,827
Oil & Gas $1,150,840,111
Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $1,010,365,149
Education $1,002,954,368
Hospitals/Nursing Homes $947,933,537
Civil Servants/Public Officials $910,330,244
Real Estate $887,650,246
TV/Movies/Music $878,307,553
Securities & Investment $848,947,340
Health Professionals $839,339,329
Air Transport $793,385,436
Misc Issues $707,991,179
Automotive $661,658,283
Telephone Utilities $648,194,289
Telecom Services & Equipment $632,520,248
Defense Aerospace $577,895,869

Yes, pretty much every line on there is intended to force you to pay more for something by preventing competition.

Why would they spend so much lobbying money if they could not ultimately get more than that amount back by trapping consumers?

Even if you disagree about the post office, the whole system is rotten with money.

The answer is publicly funded elections and a ban on campaign contributions, IMHO.

ptiemann says

interesting and off-topic, or?

I think this is exactly how the housing bubble got out of control. Congress was bribed to greatly expand bozo lending, and to look the other way as Wall Street packaged those loans for resale.

Even if you disagree about the post office, the whole system is rotten with money.

For the record I'm not against the post office. I'm just realistic about its prospects.

In fact, I think the demise of the USPS is kind of sad... one factoid I sort of recall is that it was a large part of the federal government when it was first established. Clearly it played an important role in our country's history.

From my own perspective, I rarely send anything through the mail unless I'm paying a bill, so I guess I'm just not that fired up about this particular issue, relative to others related to legalized congressional bribery.

Congress should just put up a sign: "Laws written just for you. Just give us money."

futuresmc says

This is collusion and cronyism.

We have not even gotten to the lawmaker and bank nexus. Seriously we are living in the world's strongest democracy and all the laws are made through the bribe paid by some special interest group. People have their say only once, on the election day.

My point is that FedEx and UPS have a big motive to kill the US post office so that you absolutely must pay them $10 for what cost you less than 50 cents before.

I couldn't agree more. When Congress takes bribes, corporations get a huge return on their investments.

There is absolutely no justifiable reason for FedEx or UPS to be lobbying Congress for anything. I mean maybe you could justify something like an energy company lobbying to search for more oil, but a freakin' postal company?

This is why any lobbying effort should result in an automatic anti-trust action. Then it would no logger be profitable for corporations to bride politicians.

Every corporation on that list should be broken up under anti-trust laws. I can understand unions having the right to lobby because they represent people, not corporations. And no I don't buy the crap about corporations being persons.

I agree the Post Office gets a bad rap as an example of failed big government, when in reality, it's been an amazing and profitable public service for decades!

But I don't think there is any saving the Post Office... People say you still need to send letters? Really?! Why?

I can't think of one good example of why i would need to send a letter other than for wedding invitations... And as a man, good riddance, I would have loved to have told my wife we are sending an EVITE because the postal service isn't around anymore :)

All bills can be paid on online.. And if we didn't have a postal service.. I wouldn't do business with a company that required me to mail anything. Mail-in-Rebates would prove useless... but that would be easy to phase out. Unemployment checks are already going to DEBIT cards..

In the very near future everything you need will and can be sent to your IPHONE. Your smartphone will pay your bills, be your credit card, (no need for credit cards in the mail... just download a credit card app).

The Post Office will be phased out or transform into a govt version of FEDEX/ UPS. Delivering physical packages that can't be opened on a smartphone.

doesn't even consume any tax money

Patrick,

You're delusional if you think the post office doesn't cost any tax money. Where do you think they get the money to operate at a loss? This is how all loser government projects are funded, instead of letting the market let them go bankrupt or bought out. Instead we get cries of Oh Noes! We can't let them default! We can't let the evil companies get bigger!

When in actuality it's the government that takes bribes to create monopolies.

Basically the only way competition survives is the government monopolies are so screwed up it gives private companies an edge. Ala FedEx and UPS.

Your point about bribery is a good one though, except this one is more in line of the wealthy looking American going through Mexico and getting bogusly stopped in customs and sent for five years without due process to Mexican jail because he's too dumb to realize he had to bribe the customs official. In this case, thankfully, the American companies are a little smarter.

I really don't know why you think politicians are little fluffy bunny rabbits that if we could only keep the nasty bribers away from, things would be okay. Politicians and governments are more like Mexican customs officials.

Here is where I always see the problem when a debate like this comes out.

Both the sides have very valid positions. The lobbying money is a big problem for obvious reasons as stated by prior posters. The Post Office also has huge issues (pay and benefits as well as a rapidly declining reliance on snail mail).

Now for the problem politically....... The right will point out the Post Offices non viable financial situation and propose solutions that fit their ideological bent. The left will ignore the structural issues and propose solutions(in the guise of half baked legislation that will just cause more problems) based on their ideological bent. NEITHER party will acknowledge that there is a solution outside of their ideological boundaries. I am not knowledgeable enough to know the solutions myself, but i can sure spot political posturing. And I must say political posturing is RAMPANT IN BOTH PARTIES. This phenomenon also filters down to the citizens in our country, as sycophants for both parties will rally to the cause of their political beliefs instead of engaging in critical thought about the subject.

The Post Office debate is just one of many issues where this process is repeated over and over again (Defense spending, the economy, Wall St. regulation, social safety nets, health care so on and so forth).

To be honest, I have stopped caring and now have only 1 goal. My goal is to assure my immediate family will survive this relatively unscathed, as my "faith" in the system is at an all time low.

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies" Groucho Marx

"Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But I repeat myself" Mark Twain

By my math that's over $2 Trillion in bribes since 1989.

Technically there is a provision in the Constitution that states we have to have a post office. Technically I think that the census has to be sent that way.

But mail volume has dropped dramatically. It isn't so much about lobbying but as technology has moved on the need to use the post office has shrank.

For example schools use email as the official communication..if they used mail it would take much longer. Social security in the future is going to be a direct deposit. The symbolic waiting for a ss check will be a thing of the past. If you think of 12 pieces of mail times tens of millions of people on it that's quite an amount being taken off.

The other aspect that needs to be mentioned is that towns and cities cannot tax property that the federal government owns. If we downsize the post office it means that towns and cities will make more in taxable revenue in the long run. Even if it is a few houses where a post office was the property taxes will help. Most post offices I see are generally in good spots (they had to be in order for them to work efficiently) even if some were turned into pizza shops and banks that still would generate more money for local governments than non taxable land.

UPS and Fed Ex can also lobby government for different reasons other than the post office. Both have fleets of planes. They could lobby to lower fuel taxes, they could lobby for new roads, bridges, they could lobby for opening up more to telecommunications etc.

I'm with Patrick, mostly. The bribes of our gov't need to stop, the political campaigns are a supremely expensive joke anyway.

However, I would never support publicly funded campaigns. There must be another way.

Wouldn't you agree modern campaigns are the WORST way to discover who would be an effective leader of any branch of gov't?

Has nothing to do with cost. Only labor and material. You labor for material -> not paper. Paper isn't worth a shit. Well maybe it is. So the way it is your labor for material can be adjusted by paper. That is a really stupid way to go about things. See. You now can't negotiate material or food with your labor. Thats really screwed. The value of the material is adjusted upwards while your labor is devalued. See. paper. If I can come in with MY labor and material and value that against OTHER labor and material. Well then I'm in fucking charge not someone else. See then it is a matter of dickering.

Go to Wal-mart and try to dicker for a lawn chair. Seriously or some food. Well the clerk and managment stare at you. We really don't want your set of crystal glasses for the lawn chair and the food. Well fuck you think. What do you want? Get this stuff, shut up go back to work-cause well if you really thought about it Wal-mart is tied in some way to the place you work at. Exxons tied into Mobil after all. And well Wal-mart is tied into Chase Mannhattan which means that its tied into a whole crapload of other concerns. See. Your labor buddy.

NOT YOUR MATERIAL BECAUSE WHAT YOU HAVE BOUGHT GENERALLY IS NO DAMN GOOD FOR TRADE OR VALUE. ITS OLD CRAP BUSTER.

So they are telling you their goods are worth something and your goods aren't. Don't even bother YOU go back and labor for us. We will credit you a house so you can work for us for the next 30 years. We may even credit you a car. That well by the time you labor over that four year stretch. Running like a go-for 10 hours a day keeping your family in line and in sync for us. It time for you to get a credit for a new car! See. You people live on CREDIT FOR MATERIAL. You really have nothing to trade and in many cases slave-like labor. See all they are telling you is we have the material You labor for it and get us more. It's kind of like the jews in egypt with a hut to stay in and some food. Working for those few extra's they allow adjusted of course for you labor. It's really not funny it's very sad to watch people wasting away thier time slaving for others and not gaining.

If you started at 13 years old instead of going to Duh school and college loans, home loans, credit cards all the other loans that are mearly credit for your future and I mean-way into the future labor for material. Then by the time you were 26 and 27 you would have all kinds of things a home fields filled with food. Well's. Livestock, All the things you need that you would never have to go and beg from these people that prey on you continually. Get your head right. Stop being used. It not very man-like to be a slave.

@ mdovell...

Excellent point on the other side of lobbying. Lobbying is supposed to part of the system. It's how we communicate with our elected officials. However, the bribes and collusion stink the whole system up.

I used to think of lobbying as only one sided. I also used to think ear marks were horrible. However, I learned from Ron Paul that its the moral duty of the elected official to go and get back the overpaid tax dollars of their constituents. Again, the bribes and collusion stink this up.

@ Patrick.....

I'm laughing in the most demented way.

"Well, the silver lining to this cloud is that the campaign donation money is actually spent and put into circulation, rather than being horded in corporate coffers."

If this actually worked, it scares the hell out of me what the bobble-heads would say or do to justify the next infusion.

Were in a very sick and twisted world :/

robertoaribas said: The post office may be self funding, but they are losing piss-loads of money. They have really only 2 options: raise prices or downsize. (or a combination of both).

Wrong! They have only one option. That's a major part of their problem. They are hamstrung by LAW to not raise rates at a rate greater than inflation. UPS and FedEx aren't similarly limited by typically IDIOTIC Congress tricks:

"The 2006 postal reform law, which Senator Collins authored, capped postal rate increases at the rate of inflation, but allowed a narrow exception for extraordinary or exceptional circumstances such as a terrorist attack or catastrophic natural disaster.

Senator Collins’ committee has jurisdiction over the U.S. Postal Service. In January, she filed an amicus brief urging the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit to uphold the PRC’s unanimous decision to reject the Postal Service’s requested rate hikes, which on average, would have increased rates by four to six percent. The Court of Appeals largely agreed with the PRC’s and Senator Collins’ position, but remanded to the PRC the narrow question of how close the causal link must be between a proposed rate increase and the exigent circumstances used by the Postal Service to justify the increase."

The private sector does a terrible job in many areas despite all the hollering by their paid shills. Let's keep usps. It does a pretty good job and provides fair competition for ups and fedex. Imagine what you would pay for services if they privatize state universities, public roads, utilities, national parks. They'd charge, not their cost plus a reasonable profit, but "whatever the market would bear". I shudder to think of the huge fees we'd pay to support their ever insatiable profits and mega-bloated executive pay. Instead, I wish the US would start an oil company, a bank, an insurance company, a medical clinic, and finally break the monopoly of these industries. They'd go wacko. They couldn't stand real competition.

@ Zakrajshek....

The Soviet Union tried your ideas and that didnt work out so well for them.
Everything private runs more efficient and offers a better value than anything ever put forward by government. All private parks, roads, universities are more efficient and have better quality.

The idea of government sounds great on paper, but immoral people always find their way to the top and the people pay either through force, taxes or inflation. The people always loose when they assume government is the answer.

The monopolies are immoral people, not the Free Market system. Kill the Free Market and you will kill incentive and creativity.

^ Norway has a national oil company. They're not communists. They have over $100,000 per household saved up in their national pension plan thanks to that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway

The State of North Dakota runs its own bank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_North_Dakota

They are not communist.

We have Social Security insurance. We are not communists.

England has state-run health system. They are not communists.

No, you do not know what communism is.

Ron Paul Fan says

Everything private runs more efficient and offers a better value than anything ever put forward by government.

Aahh hah ahah ah ha ahaha.

All private parks, roads, universities are more efficient and have better quality.

For those who can afford them.

Ron Paul Fan says

For mail, the Free Market has chosen free email over a the $.44 alternative from USPS. Free Market baby!

You ever send a plain letter with FedEx or UPS? I don't think so. You can count, and you know the difference between $10 and 44 cents.

But what both the right and the left can agree on is that our system of bribery kills the free market and raises prices for everything.

No company needs to serve the customer well if that can just eliminate your cheaper options by law, and trap you that way. Great for profits for the oligarcy though!

Debt-free Renter says

I really don't know why you think politicians are little fluffy bunny rabbits that if we could only keep the nasty bribers away from, things would be okay.

Sure, the money would still try to slither in under the door, but at least we could slow it down a lot. The problem is HUGE and it's clear how to fix it. Publicy funded campaigns and a ban on donations are a good answer.

I do think that a lot of Congressmen really want to to do right thing, but they just don't have a choice with the way campaigns are funded right now. If the other guy is getting big bribes, he has to take that money too or he will lose.

And when he takes that money from Vito Corleone, you know for sure Vito is going to expect a little help with his pet legislation project in return. Who loses? You do.

As for state banks, ND is pretty sweet. Now please show me who the moral people of DC are so they can implement this banking system.

England healthcare is BROKE! I ahve a friend on FB in England, bitching about it as we speak. Again immoral people have screwed it up.

SS is BROKE! its a Ponzi scheme!

We already have a government run bank, its called Goldman Sachs.... with a twist, they OWN the government employees.

If Americans were to ever wake up and realize the biggest enemy is from within, The Federal Reserve. The Fed prints the money to buy the printed bonds, the printed dollars are used for contracts to the people who fund campaigns. We need to turn off the printing presses. Its why Americans are loosing the fight to inflation. The Fed is the single, most destructive thing to Liberty.

Get educated... www.RonPaul2012.com

So if the real cost to mail a letter is $10, then the Post Office is a bunch of morons only charging $.44 The Post Office is only cheap because we pay a ton in taxes and inflation to support it!

England healthcare is BROKE! I ahve a friend on FB in England, bitching about it as we speak. Again immoral people have screwed it up.

LOL. England's NHS is part of the government so it alone can't be "broke".

Prior to the financial crash, UK had a government debt burden of 60%, so they were in better shape than us financially.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=2uW

SS is BROKE! its a Ponzi scheme!

LOL. Yet another rightwing nutjob who parrots rightwing talking points on the internet. This is my surprised face.

Ron Paul Fan says

So if the real cost to mail a letter is $10, then the Post Office is a bunch of morons only charging $.44 The Post Office is only cheap because we pay a ton in taxes and inflation to support it!

No, the real cost to mail a letter is not $10. It's more like 50 cents.

The other $9.50 will be taken from you and handed out as bonuses to people who have defeated the free market system with old-fashioned bribery.

You agree that bribery to eliminate competition is not how the free market should work, right?

Ron Paul Fan says

SS is BROKE! its a Ponzi scheme!

No, it's not broke:

During 2009, total benefits of $686 billion were paid out versus income (taxes and interest) of $807 billion, a $121 billion annual surplus.

It's not a Ponzi scheme either, because it's sustainable indefinitely, and there is no deception involved. The numbers are all public.

The sustainability depends on demographics though. If there are too many old people taking relative to younger people paying in, the surplus will get used up. So for some years the retirement age will have to be raised or benefits reduced. But then after that cohort of old people die off, benefts can be re-instated at the old level.

Anyway, the discussion here should be about our laws being made in return for bribes. THAT is our biggest problem.

Patrick, the reason the post office is going out of business is because they can't raise rates! Why do you think government companies are exempt from inflation?

Where do you think the 5 billion dollars the post office lost last year comes from? It's not from customers!
http://www.postalreporternews.net/2011/07/27/usps-announces-net-loss-of-5-6-billion-after-9-months-into-fy-2011/

Bellingham Bob says

Yet another rightwing nutjob who parrots rightwing talking points on the internet.

Even though he is repeating things that are provably false, mocking him just makes it impossible for him to admit he was wrong.

So it's counter-productive. Please don't do that.

Ron Paul Fan says

As for state banks, ND is pretty sweet. Now please show me who the moral people of DC are so they can implement this banking system.

England healthcare is BROKE! I ahve a friend on FB in England, bitching about it as we speak. Again immoral people have screwed it up.

SS is BROKE! its a Ponzi scheme!

We already have a government run bank, its called Goldman Sachs.... with a twist, they OWN the government employees.

If Americans were to ever wake up and realize the biggest enemy is from within, The Federal Reserve. The Fed prints the money to buy the printed bonds, the printed dollars are used for contracts to the people who fund campaigns. We need to turn off the printing presses. Its why Americans are loosing the fight to inflation. The Fed is the single, most destructive thing to Liberty.

Get educated... www.RonPaul2012.com

Pure piffle.

Anyway, another problem with the USPS is that the congresspeople won't allow them to cut unprofitable offices in THEIR districts. These districts are often in rural areas with few customers, right? So, again the GOP gets its way...complain about how the Government can't do anything right, cut the funding (or add costs) and therefore "prove" it.

Sounds like Amtrak or other Publicly funded endeavors. Starve the beast, indeed. Let the USPS starve their districts' beasts.

Taxpayer says

The solution for that is NOT to redistribute the wealth from those who can afford paying to those cannot afford paying.

Interesting. So when all the wealth is in the hands of 1% of the population and there is no wealth for the other 99%, how do you think this country will look?

Your problem is that you think it's about fairness. It's not. It's about having a functioning economy.

Debt-free Renter says

Patrick, the reason the post office is going out of business is because they can't raise rates!

OK, they should be able to raise rates.

Where do you think the 5 billion dollars the post office lost last year comes from?

Doesn't seem to be coming from taxpayers. You got any evidence to show that it does?

But anyway, do you agree that bribery to eliminate competition is a bad thing for the free market?

Yes mailing is down and letters seem to be thing of the past (along with mastery of the written word) but quite a lot of advertising relies on USPS distribution. Local neighborhood flyers, coupon books, community newsletters etc. Most end up in my rubbish bin but occasionally I'll flip through and take note.

Is the small local business going to start sending flyers via UPS?

Even though he is repeating things that are provably false, mocking him just makes it impossible for him to admit he was wrong.

Ron Paul Fan isn't here to debate. He's here to spread his bullshit.

The Post Office has it's hands tied by CONGRESS. They cannot raise prices or compete without Congressional approval, which is being lobbyed by FedEx and UPS.

If Congress does not allow the Post Office to increase their prices, they run into a deficit and need to be overhauled. Who wins? the privatization groups such as FedEx and UPS.