patrick.net

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

Or we can present the Jesufucks with a baseball bat with a full swing to the tiny little forehead.

hehe, Apoc - you're awesome.

if the words "deviant sodomites" were used to replace "Jesufucks" in the post above, how many more posts of outrage would follow?

Bap33 says

if the words "deviant sodomites" were used to replace "Jesufucks" in the post above, how many more posts of outrage would follow?

That's because "deviant sodomites" haven't been burning people at stakes, torturing them with Judas Cradles, and outright slaughtering non-sodomites the way Christians have been for the past 1700 years. Of course, now that it's Islams turn at bat, perhaps you can see why people are more apprehensive of religion than gay sex.

The rule is "don't pick on the weak". You can do whatever you want to the strong. For example, Apoc could have replaced the word "Jesufucks" with "senatorfucks", "lawyerfucks", "bankerfucks" and "realtorfucks" and no one would complain. However, it would be wrong to use the terms "jewfucks", "negrofucks", and "crackbabyfucks" because these groups have more than paid their fair share of suffering in history. Now if Christians were being thrown to the lions like they were before they acquired power over every Western nation, I could see your point.

The bottom line is that if you run everything, you have to take some potshots from time to time. So, if Christians don't want to be ridiculed for their behavior, all they have to do is give up all the power they have. Fair deal.

The interesting bit to me is what UNSPOKEN needs and fears drive the arguments.

It's hard to hear what isn't said! But it's the most important thing.

If you replace "baseball" with "God" in the comic, what you really have is an argument about the hope for life after death. If you use rational argument to take away that hope, sure, you're going to get a violent response. It won't be justified, but it will be predictable.

Given that some people need that irrational hope to go on, and others prefer painful truth to any kind of self-deception, how can we best all get along?

millions more people have been infected with HIV through sodomite activity than all the witches ever burned by people holding a Bible (they were not Christians). But, I see your point.
That power issue and structure you mention is the Catholic Church, not Christianity. In my opinion.

Cloud says

More internet tough guy talk ... these guys are tough with their Christian bashing.

What you're doing is called 'Ad hominem' logical fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Try again!

Cloud says

I like the story about the universe exploding out of a tiny box.

Yeah, that story actually has enough scientific evidence to back the claims.

That tiny box = big bang singularity (infinite density)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBE_mission

Bap33 says

millions more people have been infected with HIV through sodomite activity

Hemophiliacs also got HIV back in the day before they screened blood. Did God want to punish the hemophiliacs?

Bap33 says

millions more people have been infected with HIV through sodomite activity than all the witches ever burned by people holding a Bible (they were not Christians). But, I see your point.

Which is why the pope needs to stop saying condoms are bad. A lot of Africans are listening to him.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

The catholics could be really cool again if they took up crucifying bankers.

Think of the attendance on Sundays if the mass came with a little bankster crucifixion.

The one time Jesus was cool was when he kicked the money lenders asses.

Given that some people need that irrational hope to go on, and others prefer painful truth to any kind of self-deception, how can we best all get along?

As far as religion is concerned, why is truth painful?
Why can't we be comfortable with the unknown?

In fact, blind belief is painful. Look at all the wars fought in the name of religion.

Given that some people need that irrational hope to go on, and others prefer painful truth to any kind of self-deception, how can we best all get along?

Mortality isn't necessarily a bad thing. Eternal life would be really, really boring. Sure the first ten thousand years are great, but eventually it's like being on vacation with a bunch of Mormons. Plus, can you imagine the kind of procrastination that eternal life would encourage?

@uomo,
what wars were fought for a reason you feel was a good enough reason? ANd what about the reason(s) impressed you so greatly.

please look at the original graphic again. See the ball in the kids hand. In the "shades of gray" world that is the progressive's best friend, that ball is not a baseball. Why would it be called a baseball? Just by it's looks? If it was never used as a baseball, why would it still be called one? Was it created for one specific purpose? Wiat, you can use a ball like that for lots of other games, or as a paper weight, so a progressive can't base the INTENDED use of a CREATION on what it is to be called. Who says that is a baseball, and under what circumstance is it not a baseball, and when is it, and if you use another type/style of ball to play baseball would it too be called a baseball? At this point you will say that we all have a basic agreement on what is what -- a normalcy -- but that same normalcy gets torn to shreads by the deviant army of the progressive left. So, do we embrace normacy or not? Normal American Family behavior? Normal Human behavior? If we do, then do we defend it? Absolutly?

Useing the uber-logic of the progressive left, nothing can be absolute - other than nothing being absolute. (the nothing is absolute part must be an absolute in their world -- weird huh)

back to the opening picture:
So, Person A says to Person B that they have a baseball. In Progressive America, the next step would be for Person C to demand to know why that orb in Person A's hand is called a ball, and moreover, why a baseball. After a four year discussion, the issue is placed before the voting public. The voting public said the orb was a Cricket Ball, not a baseball, and was created to be used as a Cricket Ball, but Person A can use it to play any game they wish and call it whatever they wish. This angers Person C, so they go find funding through George Soros and went to the ACLU and mount a legal attack against Person A and Person B, demanding that they look at all balls equally and never again refer to Cricket Balls or Baseballs ever again. They demand that all balls be seen as equal, and sue every other Person that ever tries to use any other ball for any purpose it was created for. They next form the National Orbophobia Progressive Enclave (NOPE for short), and funnel millions of dollars into the political arena, so as to bring about change in the American education system, and military system, in an effort to change the American normalcy concerning baseball.

In my narrow mind, the religion of progressive liberalism is much more dangerous to man than having a group of like-minded conservatives following the teaching of Chirst, or having a personal relationship with God.

@DAN,
I think Jesus was cool like Fonzie all the time, but I really do agree with the way he expelled those guys working the cash trade at the temples. Those dudes were there selling birds and sheep and other sacrificaial animals so folks could follow the law and atone for their sins. Many folks had to go into debt to swing this weeks sin payment. Jesus ended all that crap. But, don't tell a catholic that.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

Think of the attendance on Sundays if the mass came with a little bankster crucifixion.

I would not merely attend, I would donate big time. I'd buy $10/bag popcorn too.

I would not merely attend, I would donate big time. I'd buy $10/bag popcorn too.

Is this not a little hypocritical? You don't like the church because you say they started wars and killed people who "weren't like them" but then you turn around and would support them if they were killing people that you didn't like? You need to get yourself to the nearest confessional and work through this. You can easily find the closest Catholic church at www.masstimes.org

You're right. That was an evil thought. I should forgive them.

OK, I'll forgive the bankers when they stop screwing over the country with lobbyists, mortgage fraud, and bailouts. Their move.

BTW, I didn't say anything about the Catholic Church starting wars or killing people were weren't like them, did I?

I just had a thought about the bankster F-in we have been getting .... is it right for me to think that the problem is the system that allowed banks to act stupid with our money and lend it to anyone they wanted to? I mean, really, all they did is play a game that had rules wrote by someone in Gov ... just like welfare people are just taking advantage of a system ... kinda the same? a little?

Bap33 says

is it right for me to think that the problem is the system that allowed banks to act stupid with our money and lend it to anyone they wanted to?

Sort of. The lack of regulations is something the Obama admin has tried to address (Dodd Frank). The deregulation (ending Glass Steagal) was a direct cause of what happened.

BTW, I didn't say anything about the Catholic Church starting wars or killing people were weren't like them, did I?

Nah you didn't my bad AGAIN in one week. I will punish myself severely. For the record, though, they have a bad history of fraud, corruption, deceit...so even if you did say it you'd be right.

OK, I'll forgive the bankers when they stop screwing over the country with lobbyists, mortgage fraud, and bailouts. Their move.

I don't think they have the capacity. Perhaps we need to tax campaign contributions at 90%. If we do that and lift any and all caps, we would pay off the debt in short order.

St. Paul says that if Jesus was not raised from the dead, than the whole Christian movement is B.S.

St. Paul, at least, does not advocate blind faith.

If you don't like Christianity, just find the remains of Jesus' body somewhere and the whole thing is proved a hoax.

The first Christians didn't go out into a hostile world saying "you can't prove that God doesn't exist, therefore he does", they went out proclaiming that Jesus was God in the Flesh and had, in fact, come back from the dead.

Maybe they were mistaken. But it is interesting how modern Christians seem to capitulate to belief in a generic "god" that can't be disproven (i.e. the flying spaghetti monster). The first Christians believed in a specific God which had, in their minds at least, acted in recordable human history.

wthrfrk80 says

The first Christians didn't go out into a hostile world saying "you can't prove that God doesn't exist, therefore he does", they went out proclaiming that Jesus was God in the Flesh and had, in fact, come back from the dead.

Unfortunately, we don't know what they said, because the earliest gospels were written decades after the life of Jesus. We don't even know who wrote them. Mark, Matthew, being the authors is based on oral tradition, we have no other works by them to compare style with and the earliest gospels have no byline.

And unlike, say, Caesar, we have no physical evidence or contemporary written accounts of Jesus' life from eyewitnesses. Whereas with Caesar, we have contemporary reports of his life not only from himself, and his supporters, but also his detractors. There were Pagan detractors of the Jesus cult, but unfortunately the originals were 'burned in the fires of righteousness' by Christians once they took power. We only know that they exist because they are mentioned and parts of them are paraphrased by Christian Authors in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries.

But Celsus, an early (150-200AD) critic of Christianity said that Christians simply acted on blind faith without proof, according to Origen, who quoted him as part of a refutation.

So the critique that Christians exhibit blind faith goes all the way back to the Early Church times.

I'm not a biblical scholar, so I can't speak about the authenticity of the gospels.

St. Paul says, in his first letter to the Corinthians,

"if Christ be not risen, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith is also vain"

Maybe later Christians acted on blind faith. But St. Paul doesn't seem to advocate blind belief, at least not to the church in Corinth.

http://danceswithanxiety.blogspot.com/2009/03/luther-on-faith-and-reason.html

And it's very plain that religiousness is no measure of morality.

Eventhough we don't agree with their religious beliefs, that doesn't mean we can be mean to them. Like, calling them names! Grow up!

pikachulove says

Eventhough we don't agree with their religious beliefs, that doesn't mean we can be mean to them. Like, calling them names! Grow up!

Throughout history religion has caused genocide, slavery, rape, torture, horrific murders like burning at the stake. Today, religion is the basis of terrorist attacks and threatens to spark nuclear war. More subtly, the religious are more likely to discard the overwhelming scientific evidence that humans are irrevocable damaging the very habituate on which we depend for existence. Quite simply, religion has been the cause of the greatest evils in history and today threatens our very survival as a species.

Despite this, religion is often given a pass for its immoral, unethical, and often illegal activities. We are told that you must always respect other people's religions no matter what. I say hogwash.

I don't advocate being mean, but there is no reason why religion should be given a free pass for crimes against humanity, children, the powerless, or anyone else. When a woman is "honored killed" because she was raped, that's a bad practice regardless of how religiously significant it is. When a child is denied medical care by the very parents who should be protecting him because of their religious beliefs, that's inexcusable. When brainwashed masses vote in politicians that continue to let companies destroy the atmosphere and literally poison our food (Google methylmercury fish), religion should not be coddled.

If religion, like smoking or endangering children, were less socially acceptable, fewer people would indulge in it. There is a purpose to ridiculing the village idiot. It prevents others from taking on the role.

As religious irrationality becomes less acceptable as an excuse for dumb, false beliefs and bad behavior and policies, our society and the world at large will become free of the bigotry, ignorance, and stupidity inflicted upon us by religion. This is the only way to stop the violence in the Middle East and the gay bashing at soldiers' funerals.

Religion is stupidity. It should not be tolerated. That doesn't mean you have to be mean to people, but you can openly oppose such irrationality and it is your duty to humanity to do so. Never fear to call religion out on its falsehood, foolishness, and evilness.

Bap33 says

millions more people have been infected with HIV through sodomite activity than all the witches ever burned by people holding a Bible (they were not Christians). But, I see your point.

That power issue and structure you mention is the Catholic Church, not Christianity. In my opinion.

Bap33, I'm pretty sure most of those millions of people killed by HIV were the recipients of the virus through heterosexual activity.

could be that you are 100% correct (normally are), but I said "sodomoite", not homo, so I may still be right. Plus, I said "infected" not died, so I may be in the clear that way too.

I was just illustrating how many more people have been put in harms way due to the militant activist sodomite community refusing to be shown as a "most likely" spreader of a disease (circa 1986 or so), in relation to the non-Christian religious types burning 17 or 20 women at the stake. I may have missed my mark a bit, due to my really really bad writing skills ... and obtuse world view (for you bro). lol

Here's one for the gallery: I believe in demons. And I believe demons exist in the physical and the spiritual, just like un-fallen-demons, AKA, Angles. But, Jesus showed us how to cast away demons, not burn the host. Anyways, just sharing.

Broken record,....dead horse...yawn....

The comic that is the basis for this thread is stupid.

Most people who have spiritual beliefs develop them over a life time and they are extremely varied. For one person it might be about a sky daddy for another it might be about dealing with the death of loved ones or hopes for themself "after" death. For others it is some more subtle and complex set of beliefs that they have developed or even just an appreciation for unanswered questions that they prefer to leave unanswered, thus living with what they perceive to be the more truth in their lives than they would have being emotional and dogmatic atheists (see Dan).

But here is the point, and the reason the comic is so stupid. Most, or at least many "believers" (see varied points of view in previos paragraph) have no desire to prove something that they know is unprovable. This might not prevent them from getting in arguments with childish atheists who claim THEY CAN PROVE THE UNPROVABLE, that belief in God in all forms is incorrect.

Whether the guy has a ball is obviously simple to prove based on direct observation.

How ridiculous can you get ?

Again, and I repeat,...yawn.

I'm glad you're anti witch burning. We can agree on that.

You're still off on the HIV thing because most of those infected, living and dead, were infected through non-sodomistic, old fashioned copulation which occurred in exactly the manner taught by the same missionaries who brought them western european religion.

Dan8267 says

That's because "deviant sodomites" haven't been burning people at stakes,

You do remember "Sodomites" come from the biblical story Sodom and Gomorrah. Where the towns folk would assault visitors and sodomize men with mop handles.

The guy who turns out a Prison Bitch would be a deviant Sodomite.

marcus says

Most people who have spiritual beliefs develop them over a life time and they are extremely varied.

Most people who have racist beliefs develop them over a lifetime. That does not make the racist beliefs any less wrong. Nor does the variations of wrong answers make a fundamentally wrong assumption right.

marcus says

or another it might be about dealing with the death of loved ones or hopes for themself "after" death.

Emotional trauma does not make a false belief true. Nor does the emotional trauma justify inflicting further damage on the world by promoting false and bad ideas.

I'm sorry your grandpa died, but that doesn't mean you get to hate fags.

marcus says

For others it is some more subtle and complex set of beliefs that they have developed or even just an appreciation for unanswered questions that they prefer to leave unanswered

The complexity of a wrong argument does not make it less wrong. The most complex argument for the square root of two being a rational number is still wrong.

If people want to leave questions unanswered, that's fine. Saying god did it does not leave the question unanswered but rather answered incorrectly. Of course, if people just used god as an excuse not to study nature, faith would not be dangerous. The problem is as soon as people believe in a god, they start believing that god wants them to do things, usually really bad things.

marcus says

thus living with what they perceive to be the more truth

There were plenty of politicians and American citizens who "perceived" Iraq as threatening the United States with weapons of mass destruction and ties to Al Queda. That incorrect perception resulted in the deaths of over a million people and the suffering of countless others. When your perception results in war, torture, and oppression, your perception should be challenged and refuted.

marcus says

emotional and dogmatic atheists (see Dan).

There is no such thing as a dogmatic atheist despite your childish attempts to brand atheists as such. Furthermore, my arguments are grounded in reason whereas yours make feeble emotional appeals to distract from the real issues and facts.

marcus says

Most, or at least many "believers" (see varied points of view in previos paragraph)) have no desire to prove something that they know is unprovable.

They don't "know", they "believe". Just because you are absolutely sure of something, doesn't make it true. See Iraq's WMDs and ties to Osama.

CaptainShuddup says

You do remember "Sodomites" come from the biblical story Sodom and Gomorrah. Where the towns folk would assault visitors and sodomize men with mop handles.

The Bible, including the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is a complete work of fiction. Many of the stories were written by assholes with political agendas trying to make their opponents look bad.

For example, in America we glorify the myth of the farmer, which does not exist today. But back in Biblical times, farmers were hated by hunter-gatherer nomads. That's why Cain, the farmer, couldn't please god with his sacrifice but Able, the nomad, did. It's why Cain was made out to be the murderer of Able. Agriculture killed nomadic life by allowing people to settle down and build towns and cities.

And ancient nomads hate cities. People end up with free time, which nomads never have because they barely manage to exist day to day. Jealousy and economic competition results in made up bullshit stories like Sodom and Gomorrah, which were the ancient equivalent of America's small towns in the heartland.

There's a reason why ancient cities were built one on top of the other. People would turn to agriculture and build a city. Then nomads, jealous of the city's economic success and security, would make war against the city to pillage and take over the city. Then the conquerors became farmer city dwellers, and the next group of nomads would repeat the cycle.

The nomads didn't always win. They usually lost. But when they did win, the old city would be destroyed and a new city would be built on its ruins.

marcus says

For others it is some more subtle and complex set of beliefs that they have developed or even just an appreciation for unanswered questions that they prefer to leave unanswered, thus living with what they perceive to be the more truth in their lives than they would have being emotional and dogmatic atheists (see Dan).

For clarification of what I mean by "dogmatic atheists:"

Non belief of various degrees could probably be broken down more than this, but for the simplicity of making my point I will just try to label two poles.

Normal healthy atheists: Don't believe in God, period. They may have opinions about the good and bad of religious history, but little emotion, ego, or "charge" and certainly no need to proselytize, and for the most part have a 'live and let live' attitude toward believers (but possibly disdain for fundamentalists).

The dogmatic Atheist: They take it to an entirely different level. MAny are literally children, who stroke eachother on the internet and are like Sudden Clarity Clarence ( http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3q3sgx/ ), feeling that they are having profound insights, when they share obvious inconsistencies or contradictions that crop up in religion. It's so easy, and so adolescent. They are on a crusade, apparently to make the world a better place by selling the idea that religion is evil and that God in any conceivable form does not exist (oh, ad some even claim they can prove it !! LOL). Above all what you hear when listening to them is a religious emotional zeal, but also an arrogance and self righteousness that you will rarely hear even from the most dogmatic fundamentalist.

Ready ?

marcus says

Normal healthy atheists

Translation: If you don't agree with me or at least shut up and tow the line, you're a deviant.

Marcus, you talk about atheist exactly like Bap33 talks about gays. And you are just as full of shit and for the exact same reasons.

Bap33 irrationally considers any homosexual to be deviant, abnormal, and unhealthy. Marcus irrationally considers any vocal atheist to be deviant, abnormal, and unhealthy. You both have issues with people coming out of the closet. You both also have take your arbitrary and unfounded opinions and present them as inalienable truths as if your opinions were natural law.

marcus says

selling the idea that religion is evil

The whole of history demonstrates in painful detail that religion is evil. Current events continue to confirm this fact.

marcus says

(oh, ad some even claim they can prove it !! LOL).

Given any definition of god, I can either prove that god does not exist or that people don't worship and take moral direction from that god. I have done that extensively on other threads.

Feel free to attempt to find fault in any of the proofs I have submitted. They are available for the entire world to view. However, your constant assertion that the existence or non-existence of god is unprovable coupled with your cowardly refusal to even attempt to contradict my proofs indicates that you do not even believe your own arguments.

If you want to debate the proofs against various gods, I'll gladly take you on one-on-one in a new thread. But I suspect you far too much of an intellectual coward to accept this challenge.

As a rationalist, I have nothing to fear. The worst case scenario is that you actually do prove that god proofs/disproofs are impossible, in which case I come out ahead by learning something. However, I doubt that will happen.

You see, I don't actually give a rat's ass whether or not god exists. But I do care that the truth, whatever it is, prevails and that lies are not used to commit acts of evil. Atheism is a conclusion, not a presumption. That is how atheist differ from the faithful. You never seem to be able to grasp this simple concept. Perhaps you were dropped as a baby. I don't blame you. I blame your parents.

I rest my case.

marcus says

I rest my case.

Resting your case after the opposition has destroyed it is a foolish move.

Put perhaps you'd rather comment in this thread.

In any case, it is nice to see that you are consistent in your strategy:
1. Make a wild and unfounded assertion.
2. Call the opposition childish.
3. When the opposition replies like an adult, run away!

http://www.youtube.com/embed/hcy40pvGIGQ
That is all, class dismissed.

According to Marcus, George Carlin is an "unhealthy childish crusader". Who are you going to believe, George Carlin or Marcus? I'll go with Carlin any day.

I've argued with you before Dan.

Dan8267 says

in which case I come out ahead by learning something

I'm quite certain you aren't going to learn anything from me Dan. At least not in any immediate way that would be reflected in a forum conversation.

I'll give you one small argument then I'm out of here.

Dan8267 says

Atheism is a conclusion, not a presumption.

Maybe. But only by presuming that you totally understand what all forms of adult spiritual belief can take, can you debunk them. Your conclusions are based on a straw man argument of what adult religious belief is.

Your "proof" may accurately address some believers, but is unable to touch others.

How do you begin to supposedly understand what it is that for example this Episcopalean Bishop believes ? Logically, wouldn't you have to understand his belief before you could disprove it ?

He describes his belief as "walking in to the mystery."

http://www.youtube.com/embed/6AfFcAmx-Ro&feature=relmfu

Dan8267 says

According to Marcus, George Carlin is an "unhealthy childish crusader". Who are you going to believe, George Carlin or Marcus? I'll go with Carlin any day.

Generalizing about most institutional religion is a far cry from your arguments about any form of spiritual belief.

It's the difference between thinking that religion should be better versus thinkng that it needs to not exist and that we all need to be atheists.

"When it comes to God's existence, I'm not an atheist and I'm not an agnostic. I'm an acrostic. The whole thing puzzles me."
- George Carlin, When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops?