patrick.net

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says

Whould you say the nature of man has been pretty consistant over the last few thousand years?
The question is too vague to answer, particularly what is meant by the nature of man. The human brain has not changed significantly in the past few thousand years, however, culture and paradigms have changed greatly and these things affect human behavior.

Are you suggesting there is no "nature" to man(generic)?

Randy H says

Even Bap33 is a secular humanist, though I doubt he realizes it.

I am a complicated person! lol
I can only promise you this: God is.
I have spent long nights on my knees on the floor in deep meditation and prayer -- looking for something, anything, and believe it or not, there is something there.
I'm still a scumbag, but I am a believer.

I'm going to get a rusty old halo, skinny white cloud, and second hand wings full of patches.

Bap33 says

I understand the facts to suggest that the first written accounts of ANYTHING are from Sumer.

Myths don't have to be written down.

Bap33 says

cmon dude, I said spiritual, not religious. Religion is not the answer.

Fine then, leftists can be quite "spiritual" as well. Just look at the nuns who were criticized by the Vatican for spending their time helping the poor instead of fighting gay marriage.

Bap33 says

special nature in the context of my post, meaning different than the known, historic nature of man.

OK, clear as mud now.

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says

Then consider how the life expectancy drops with every generation from Adam. This symbolizes the distancing of man from god, the source of life.

wrong. But, sounded good.

Feel free to argue the point with theologians. It's just a fairytale anyway.

Bap33 says

Are you suggesting there is no "nature" to man(generic)?

No, but if you want to discuss the nature of man productively, you have to write very precisely and define exactly what you mean.

Bap33 says

Randy H says

Even Bap33 is a secular humanist, though I doubt he realizes it.

I am a complicated person! lol
I can only promise you this: God is.

Dan8267 says

Noun

S: (n) humanism, secular humanism (the doctrine emphasizing a person's capacity for self-realization through reason; rejects religion and the supernatural)

So then god rejects religion and the supernatural. Isn't that ironic, don't you think?

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says
Then consider how the life expectancy drops with every generation from Adam. This symbolizes the distancing of man from god, the source of life.
wrong. But, sounded good.
Feel free to argue the point with theologians. It's just a fairytale anyway.

man lived about the same amount of time, with the longest living coming many gererations after Adam. The age of man was cut shorter after Noah went sailing.

Dan8267 says

So then god rejects religion and the supernatural. Isn't that ironic, don't you think?

God can be defeated not with irony, but with iron:

"And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

thunderlips11 says

God can be defeated with iron.

"And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

Holy shit! Kurse is god?

It all makes sense now... Jesus must be the Hulk. You don't want to see Jesus mad.

thunderlips11 says

God can be defeated with iron.

At least Cybermen require gold to take down.

Dan8267 says

Take Adam and Eve. They were banished from paradise for eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Can you see the symbolism. Babies are innocent and know nothing of good and evil, so they are happy in paradise. As a child grows into adulthood he learns of good and evil and thus is banished from the paradise of ignorance.

True. But I think the story is about the fruits of consciousness, and the burden that comes with it.

The couple eats from the tree of knowledge, that the snake (who is not Satan, by the way) says that, if eaten, "your eyes will be opened and you will be like us."

The God who put the tree in the garden is immediately found sewing animal skins together for their post-Eden life. He has helped them to attain a conscious mind.

The price for their consciousness is to work and have pain in childbirth. Things, I think it would seem to people from that era, that the animal kingdom without our consciousness do not have to "suffer".

HEY YOU says

BTW, Does anyone have any proof a spirit?

Yes.

So if I can prove there is not infinite anything, then does that destroy god?

I think - maybe - that:
you can split any line infinitly small
you can increase any line infinitly big
fractals are the same, infinite small, infinite big.
Energy seems to me umlimited in heat and cold, it' just that atoms and matter have issues at some levels of both hot and cold.
But, I do look forward to your next post.

leoj707 says

HEY YOU says

BTW, Does anyone have any proof a spirit?

Yes.

A classic Islay malt. Good choice.

A line cannot split infinitely small unless it is also infinitely large. Otherwise it is bounded by constraints, and at some level of arbitrary smallness it will cease to be divisiable. And a line cannot be infinitely large because *infinitely* means it will exceed the contraints of the universe unless the universe is also infinite. If the universe is finite, then the line would consume the universe and the entire universe would only be the line. If the universe is infinite, then everything has already happened and causality is broken.

If there is were really a hell, then it would surely be an infinite universe.

Randy H says

at some level of arbitrary smallness it will cease to be divisiable

lol. no.

Here's how I see the Hell that God tosses Satan in:
Bottomless Pit: The center of the earth
Unquenched fire: The center of the earth
Darkness: Also, the center of the earth

And, as you know, Satan was cast down to earth and given dominion over it. What do you think?

I think "The Satan Pit" was a great Doctor Who episode.

I imagine that falling into a black hole would be another rendition of Hell given that the experience of the person falling in would be one of agonizingly near-infinitely long crossing of the event horizon.

But I still hold that a line is not infinitely divisiable. You're one for literalism and observation over Jedi mind tricks, bap33. So, you should be able to demonstrate the infinite divisibility of a line for me. Just do so 10^100 times for a 1cm line and I'll call that infinite and believe you.

lol

Religion is an excellent form of mind control, for the masses of course, gotta look somewhere for the answers to the little things in life that scare people.

Randy H says

A line cannot split infinitely small unless it is also infinitely large.

What are you talking about ?

These questions were considered long ago by Aristotle and Zeno.

If you start with a line segment one inch long, I don't care how many times you cut it in half, say n times, the resulting length will be an actual nonzero length of exactly 1/(2^n) inches (one over two to the nth inches).

If we can't measure one trillionth of one trillionth of one trillionth of an inch, does that mean that such a small length does not conceptually exist ? I guess this does get tricky if we are talking about actual physical space, but certainly conceptually on a number line we can express lengths as small as you wish.

That is, at least mathematically speaking, infinitely small is easy to grasp, and is not questioned.

But the topic has some depth to it. Rational numbers versus irrational numbers, countably infinite versus uncountably infinite.

Randy H says

A line cannot split infinitely small unless it is also infinitely large. Otherwise it is bounded by constraints, and at some level of arbitrary smallness it will cease to be divisiable. And a line cannot be infinitely large because *infinitely* means it will exceed the contraints of the universe unless the universe is also infinite. If the universe is finite, then the line would consume the universe and the entire universe would only be the line. If the universe is infinite, then everything has already happened and causality is broken.

The axiom of choice would beg to disagree

Randy H says

But I still hold that a line is not infinitely divisiable.

Oh, prey tell, give me the smallest segment on the line from zero to one.

Is .99999999999999...(repeating) equal to one ? If so, than please tell me what is the number that comes right before one ?

And if one represented one inch, what would be the distance between these two "adjacent" numbers ?

Would it be zero ? Well, maybe. But then we do not have the ability to name two such adjacent numbers. For any two arbitrarily close numbers you can come up with, I can easily list infinite numbers that are between them.

Infinity is one of those areas where the empirical may not support the conceptual. Mathematics allows for many concepts which are entirely abstract and exceed the constraints of the physics of the universe. That doesn't mean math is truth and those aspects of the universe are simply undiscovered/undiscoverable. It also means that some math exceeds reality and qualifies as well structured, rational imagination. Infinity is one of those concepts.

Substitute "time" for "line" in your theorem above and suddenly you can no longer rely upon dividing a segment of time 1/2^n because time cannot be smaller than a single chronon.

If nothing is actually continuous, then infinity is reduced to "countable infinity" which simply means it's finite, but really f'ing huge.

So if I hear you correctly, you are saying that "reality" might be an extremely high definition digital computer program (as in the matrix)?

Just kidding.

Randy H says

If nothing is actually continuous, then infinity is reduced to "countable infinity" which simply means it's finite, but really f'ing huge.

I don't get what you're trying to say. I do get that you are trying to agree with Aristotle. Sure, if you want to talk about the number of stars or grains of sand, these things would seem to be finite.

But infinity is simply a concept. Zeno argues basically that motion is impossible without infinity because to get from point A to point B would would have to cross a point C that is half way between A and B. Then to get from point C to point B you would have to cross a point half way between those.etc, etc. Without crossing infinite points you can not get from A to B. REmember, this is how the rabbit loses to the tortoise.

THere are logical paradoxes that try to counter zeno. These are fun and prove only that arguing about infinity can lead to paradoxes about paradoxes.

I get your point about abstraction. And that in reality infinity is not so easy to fathom. This is why we have axioms (or postulates). I have never even seen an axiom that states that infinitely small intervals of time or space exist. But physics and even the idea of using continuous functions to describe reality implies such axioms.

About countable versus uncountable.Countably infinite would be for example the number of integers or rational numbers, because we can come up with a plan for counting (or listing them if you prefer), where as the irrational numbers are uncountably infinite. Both are truly infinite. It's just that the latter is a much larger infinity. (I know, weird, right?).

Speaking of Mythical entities being powerless against certain materials (a recurring theme in Indo-European mythology), how about things they are attracted to?

"But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord." --Leviticus 1:9

Modern religionists should explain why their all-powerful, timeless, benevolent god cares for a good barbeque. Seems to me a being that existed forever, needs no sustenance, etc. wouldn't have much of a use for a grilled steak.

In fact, this Yahweh cat is alot like Ba'al, Apollo, or Thor in enjoying a little piece of meat presented by his followers from time to time. Looks like over time, this "King of the Mountain" Sky God eventually encompassed all the other Gods, did away with his wife, Astarte/Ashtoret/Ishtar, and become more abstract over time.

This line from Leviticus is an artifact from a previous era when Yahweh, in his original form, was much like any other Indo-European deity. As society became more complicated, they changed their God(s) to fit the times.

Hence, in a society experiencing Euhemerism*, Cosmopolitanism, and Alienation, God was again modified to have an only begotten son whose message was not just to Hebrews, but to the Entire World, who was made to fit into a real time and place, and was a PERSONAL savior rather than one who brought benefits to all society in general.

* Euhemerism is the process of putting mythological beings into a set time and place on Earth. In the early Roman empire, Hercules, Perseus, and other mythological beings, once thought to have existed in a nebulous time and place were given a physical, historical existence in a time and place on Earth and their stories rewritten as actual events.

bdrasin says

A classic Islay malt. Good choice.

I do enjoy a good Islay. At any given time 1/3 to 1/2 of the whisky on my shelf is Islay.

Of course, I always keep Lagavulin stocked.

thunderlips11 says

God was again modified

Another modification would be the preference for cash over BBQ.

And speaking of BBQ and spirits one of my favoite spirits this summer has been Ardbeg Uigeadail it has a strong smoky finish with hints of BBQ and it pairs well with... well, BBQ.

leoj707 says

I do enjoy a good Islay. At any given time 1/3 to 1/2 of the whisky on my shelf is Islay.

Have tried to acquire a taste for them. Don't get it so far, unless it's all about not drinking too much because the flavors are so strong. A lot of peat, right ?

Randy H says

time cannot be smaller than a single chronon.

That's just a theory.

thunderlips11 says

Looks like over time, this "King of the Mountain" Sky God eventually encompassed all the other Gods, did away with his wife, Astarte/Ashtoret/Ishtar, and become more abstract over time.

Yes, it is interesting how Romney's faith of Mormonism has woven the god wife back into the mix with Joseph Smiths "doctrine of Heavenly Mother." Actually in the Mormon faith god has many wives, as will all Mormons -- er, Mormon men that is -- who are deemed worthy enough to achieve godhood themselves.

marcus says

Have tried to acquire a taste for them. Don't get it so far, unless it's all about not drinking too much because the flavors are so strong. A lot of peat, right ?

Yeah, a lot of peat and smoke.

To get used to them I think that it helps doing tastings with non-Islay malts to have a flavor reference point, and yes drinking slow.

Even so it is just not to some peoples taste. A buddy of mine gave me a Lagavulin with 80% left because he just could not finish the bottle.

I tried a less expensive one a year or two ago ( Laphroaig 10yr ) that I still haven't finished.

leoj707 says

Another modification would be the preference for cash over BBQ.

ROTFL

Yes, Yahweh has now taken on the aspects of Mercury, Plutus or Cai Shen.

marcus says

I tried a less expensive a year or two ago Laphroaig that I still haven't finished.

The Laphroaig 10 year I am guessing? I do enjoy it but it is getting close to my tolerance level for drinking straight whisky. Not the best Islay to start on.

The 18 year is much better and by comparison not as heavy on the smoke. Also, the Laphroaig Quarter Cask is a fun change with some additional character from being finished in the smaller cask.

Nerds with Doctor Who and Sim City references, and Whiskey Afficionados. Man, I love this site.

Randy H says

A line cannot... is broken.

What are you smoking and how much does it cost?

marcus says

Is .99999999999999...(repeating) equal to one ? If so, than please tell me what is the number that comes right before one ?

As someone who claims to be a math teacher, you should know that second question is meaningless as the real numbers, like the rational numbers, are of the second order of infinity and the "comes right before" question applies only to countably infinite (1st order infinity) or finite (0 order infinity) ordered sets. That's basic abstract algebra.

I don't know how this thread got off tracked to math and physics, but here are a few facts.

In a continuous space like the mathematical space used in Euclidean geometry, a line segment can be divided in half an arbitrary number of times. A line segment has finite length by definition and is infinitely divisible by the following technique.

Create two circles at either endpoint of the segment with a radius equal to the sequent. Bisect the line segment by drawing another at the two points where the circles intersect. Repeat as many times as you like, even to infinity.

The physical universe, however, is discrete on the quantum level. Matter, energy, space, and time all occur in discrete quantities. For example, the smallest unit of length with any meaning in the classical sense is the Plank Length. And the smallest unit of time, the moment if you will, is the Plank Time, which is the time it takes light to travel the Plank Length in a vacuum.

I would argue that the universe is deterministic even though its not fully predictable and that true randomness does not exist even though the concept is useful in statistical analysis of physical phenomenon. And yes, technically the universe does satisfy the definition of a computer. Put that does not imply that there is a programmer or a purpose to its calculations.

thunderlips11 says

Modern religionists should explain why their all-powerful, timeless, benevolent god cares for a good barbeque. Seems to me a being that existed forever, needs no sustenance, etc. wouldn't have much of a use for a grilled steak.

Why can't a super being enjoy a good bit of meat, no doubt with a glass of scotch? Sounds good to me!

Dan8267 says

As someone who claims to be a math teacher

Okay well, of course I ignored you again the other day because of your obnoxious personality (again).

I unignored just now, because of a bet I had with myself. Will he be:

1) adding to the conversation

2) restating something I said

3) just trying to mix t up with me again - basically criticiszing or in some way asserting again that I'm an idiot.

I predicted correcltly that it would be #2, #3 or a combination of both.

For the record, you are wrong, rational numbers are countably infinite. Since by definition a rational number can be expressed as a quotient of two integers, it's easy to set up a two dimensional matrix or maybe I should say lattice with a description of how you will "count" them.

Irrational numbers are (as I said) uncountably infinite. SO of course the real numbers which include both rational and irrational are uncountably infinite.

To get an idea how much bigger the one infinity is than the other: If you were able to randomly select a real number, the probability that it would be a rational number is zero. That is, there is a zero chance that the number would be rational.