patrick.net

Bellingham Bill says

But most people have to commute into town every day, and 17 / 9 is a bitch of a commute so most families are stuck in the valley. And if you're stuck in the valley, Cupertino is in the sweet spot beween the shittiness of San Jose and the enclaves closer to Stanford.

I actually grew up in Boulder Creek (one of the most beautiful places on earth btw) and my mom still lives there. Parents bought a house there in ~1962

I used to work in Cupertino and there's actually a reasonable short cut off of hwy 9 to sunnyvale/saratoga rd.

That being said, yes, if the commute wasn't so long I'd live back up there in a hearbeat. It's a totally different lifestyle; you can still ride dirt bikes and shoot guns :)

there is no real "Downtown" in Cupertino. its all stripmalls.

At least Mo'vew and S'vale has Castro and Murphy with some excellent restaurants,decent bars, farmers market, and free live music in the summer.

This is getting a little silly. Cupertino is not expensive solely because of some Borg Collective of Asians with suitcases full of dragon gold (thanks Serpentor, funny term). It may be a factor, but it seems like people are fixating entirely too much on the fact that Asians make up much of an expensive area. Would people on here be hemming & hawing if it was overpriced but crammed full of white folks? Probably not.

Why?

Because it is old news. Us cracker folks have been doing our very best to wage class warfare on everyone else since forever. Now that Indians & Asians are getting some small pieces of that pie, it is suddenly some big deal. White kids were all encouraged to "express themselves" and pursue degrees in useless liberal arts degrees, and the Asian kids were all kicked in the ass from birth to be scientists, lawyers & doctors*. Now that those kids are adults, it is really any surprise to see who has money?

*I am not advocating the "tiger parent" bullshit I hear about. There is a healthy medium between that and naming your kid something dumb like Brayden & letting him wear women's clothes if he feels like he wants to. One turns your kid in to a pot smoking robot that lives in your basement indefinitely, and the other turns him into a status-seeking robot that worries way too much about how they compare to everyone else, knows how to make lots of money, and has NO idea of how to live a life.

Not that impressive.

Chinese Immigrants in the United States

http://www.iowaimmigrationeducation.org/index.cfm?nodeID=22246&audienceID=1&action=display&newsID=7623

Demographic and Socioeconomic Overview •Over one-third of all Chinese foreign born in the United States arrived in 2000 or later.

•Almost two-thirds of Chinese immigrants in 2008 were adults of working age.
•Chinese immigrant women outnumbered men in 2008.
•Chinese immigrants were much more likely than the foreign born overall to be naturalized US citizens.
•Three of every five Chinese immigrants in 2008 were limited English proficient.
•Most limited English proficient Chinese immigrants spoke Chinese, Cantonese, or Mandarin.
•Nearly half of Chinese foreign-born adults had a bachelor's degree or higher.
•Chinese immigrant men were less likely to participate in the civilian labor force than foreign-born men overall.
•Over half of employed Chinese-born men worked in services; management, business, and finance; other sciences and engineering; and information technology.
•One-third of employed Chinese-born women worked in services and in management, business, and finance.
•Chinese immigrants were about as likely to live in poverty as natives.
•Chinese immigrants were more likely than other immigrants to own their own home.
•About one in six Chinese immigrants did not have health insurance in 2008.
•Over one-third of native-born US citizens of Chinese ancestry spoke Chinese at home.
•About 420,000 children under age 18 resided in a household with a Chinese immigrant parent.

The parts of Cupertino I've been to it just bothers me that there are like no trees.
Have you ever seen the movie Goodfellas. Remember the place he ends up in the end? I could swear he's in Cupertino...

Today everything is different.

There's no action. I have to
wait around like everyone else.

Can't even get decent food.

After I got here I ordered
spaghetti with marinara sauce...

...and I got egg noodles with ketchup.

I'm an average nobody.

I get to live the rest of
my life like a schnook.

toothfairy says

I get to live the rest of
my life like a schnook.

Welcome to pretty much most of Santa Clara County... from Palo Alto to Milpitas down to So San Jose. After living here for 15-20 years its pretty much all the same.

Hi All,

It's interesting to read these perspectives, given my strong interest in Cupertino. Ultimately, we are not buying there mostly because we would like access to jobs in SF and not just mid peninsula.

I thought I would just point out one thing from the Chinese perspective. Some of us require access to strong after-school Chinese programs, in addition to good schools, so our children may grow up getting a good grounding in Mandarin Chinese. This does factor in to the demand for towns like Cupertino and others, at least, for me.

Disclaimer: I am not advocating buying a house in Cupertino. Just answering OP's question from my perspective.

Cupertino prices are down recently, but not by much. Here is my perspective on why the Cupertino prices will never crash. It is conveniently located - close to 280, 101, 85. Great shopping - WholeFoods, Target, Marina/Maxim markets etc, Tons of excellent restaurants. Tons of schools with great API - just go to an open house in Faria or Portal to see the droves of interested (Indian, Russian, Middle Eastern AND Chinese - not just Chinese) parents there. Tons of afterschool enrichment and tutoring centers catering to families that want to supplement the public school curriculum (or lack of it). Tons of tech companies with job prospects in the neighborhood. I can think of more if I had more time to come up with positives.
Cupertino has become an enclave and a "Fortress". I see a lot of successful Indians move in there frequently as well as Asians. A lot of them wear T shirts that proclaim the virtues of VMWare, Google, Facebook, QCom, AAPL, CSCO, NTAP etc. I am assuming that they must work in the tech field with high paying jobs and great prospects even in this economy. The good private schools here cost $20K - $30K per child (sometimes more - see Harker fees). So, if you had multiple kids, it makes economic sense to buy in Cupertino and send your kid to the Faria, Portal, Lincoln or Garden Gate etc schools which boast to be as good as any top notch private school. In fact it works out cheaper to buy a house there than to pay private school fees for 2 kids. And many people in California are disillusioned with the public school system, so they trust only public schools deemed "the best". The cream of the crop in the tech world live in the bay area and they are from backgrounds where a great education (not just arts and crafts and sports, but ALSO excellence in science and math) is considered the foremost goal for their kids and they are willing to pay what it takes to get it. They will not lose money if the bubble bursts - because for them, their other option would have been to buy a house in a lousy neighborhood (where the crash would be bigger) and they would have paid for private schooling in order to make up for the poor schools there. And the public schools in cupertino are asking for parent contributions so that they can keep the Arts and Sports programs going (and the parents gladly contribute) even though the schools lack the budget for them.
Renting in Cupertino to get into public schools is not cheap - 2 bedroom apartments cost $2700 per month in Cupertino city and SFH cost $3000+ easily (check craigs list).
So, if you are waiting for the prices in Cupertino to drop, you might as well wait for the tech companies in Silicon Valley to shut down and all the tech workers to emigrate to Asia and then it will happen.

Cupertino Smupertino. Palo Alto is where everyone wants to be (apparently). WTH is wrong with people; buying 500 sq ft rat shacks for $1.15M.

I give up. All this talk of housing bottoming and prices going down in the peninsula is just plain crazy talk.
http://www.redfin.com/CA/Palo-Alto/1820-Ash-St-94306/home/595737

I just need to find a 1/1 listed for 1.2M or more. That will teach these wannabes.

Serpentor says

Do you think Cupertino is the center of the fucking universe? Do you really think millionaire commie tycoons really want to live near high tech? There are plenty of schools with a ton of immigrants in other areas of the world.

Let me repeat what I wrote many times to educate your freaking newbs
The vast majority of the immigrants in Cupertino did NOT come from Millionaire families. The worked hard, worked in high tech and saved to get to where they are. The price increase of the fortress areas happened because of the housing bubble cause by loose lending standards. This includes Crapertino.

I never said Cupertino is full of only millionaires. Why are you so angry?

I think many people who have posted in this thread, including Bayhousehunter's great response show that Cupertino has plenty of attributes that will keep it more expensive than other communities in the Bay Area.

I think prices will come down, but I don't see a 65% crash like some of the extreme bears are claiming.

Have a nice day!

Serpentor says

Do you think Cupertino is the center of the fucking universe? Do you really think millionaire commie tycoons really want to live near high tech? There are plenty of schools with a ton of immigrants in other areas of the world.

Let me repeat what I wrote many times to educate your freaking newbs

Please chill.

That comment got two dislikes. One more and it goes into moderation. I have to admit it is deliberately insulting.

what? only 2 dislikes? I thought there'd be more Haterz

Goran_K says

I think prices will come down, but I don't see a 65% crash like some of the extreme bears are claiming.

well I don't think 65% crash likely either. But even a modest 15%-35% drop is a quite a few years worth of rent in those parts and will wipe out equity in a lot of people.

Like i said, I really don't give a rats ass about Cupertino prices. What gets under my skin is people who don't know crap about a certain culture act like experts and repeat the same myths over and over again without any proof or data.

Serpentor says

Like i said, I really don't give a rats ass about Cupertino prices. What gets under my skin is people who don't know crap about a certain culture act like experts and repeat the same myths over and over again without any proof or data.

(read this with a strong Texan accent)

But I heard that them Gout Cow people are been movin in & taking all the jerbs! It was on the internets, so its gotta be true. All dem damn people, look different, can't trist em.

Really, what kind of people let their cows have Gout just to send dem kids to a school?!

lol

Serpentor says

lol

They did take our jobs in more than one way... you cant have expensive workforce because of housing. High Tech industry cant absorb high costs given the deflationary nature of the business.

The inbalance has caused plenty of job losses over the past 10 years all because someone's pathatic ego warrants $1M house in Cupertino, Palo Alto, Menlo, etc etc. High home prices and rents dont work around here...

Yes! they took our jobs away!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/13/BUG91PO3US1.DTL&ao=all

Q: So are those really challenges?

A: Unequivocally, yes. Not only to the CEOs in the boardroom, but to any family you talk to in their living room. What we hear time after time from CEOs as well as frontline employees is how incredibly difficult it is to come here and stay here. That truly does have an impact on a company's bottom line when the cost differential is so much higher here than it is in other regions around the state, nation and globe, or the ability to recruit top talent is also impacted.

You mentioned housing. It probably is the top concern we hear about in Silicon Valley from both CEOs and employees in terms of local issues. Does that have an impact? Let me put a finer point on it.

Hewlett-Packard and Dell are the top two computer-makers in the world. Corporate headquarters for HP are located in Palo Alto and Dell is in Round Rock, Texas. Obviously, they both have people and facilities around the globe.

In those two communities where their corporate headquarters are and where a lot of research and development takes place, the median resale price for a home in Palo Alto is about $1.6 million. In Round Rock, Texas, it's about $180,000, except the home and property are bigger.

We hear from HP all the time that a huge deterrent to the ability to recruit and retain people anywhere near Silicon Valley is the housing issue. We don't hear that from Dell, which is also a member company, about their operations in Round Rock. It does continue to plague us and we will continue to sound the alarm.

Cupertino, CA: 63.3% Asian

Round Rock, Texas: 4.1% Asian

It's a myth to think that all asians are wealthy high tech workers. we have about 2x as many Asians in Oakland than Cupertino.
and you see elderly Chinese standing in the soup lines wrapped around the corner every morning.

As far as Round Rock Texas the problem with a low barrier to entry on housing prices is there's no exclusivity. You may be a Dell executive living in your 180k house and you could easily find that your next door neighbor works part time at the local Walmart.

This thread just seems disconnected from the question. There are definitely areas with fundamental supply and demand dynamics which result in higher prices. Cupertino might be one of those places.

No Bay Area neighborhood has yet returned to a pricing level that is not sustained by loans of money equaling many times incomes. The system supporting the very high loans was loans turned into pools of money in which institutions and individuals could invest more money. That support systems broke down even though I'm sure it still exists to some extent.

So prices will continue to find the balance between supply and demand fundamentals and the increase caused by adjacent investing. Some of the debate here is aimed at the supply and demand fundamentals that might be at play. It's helpful to understand that supply and demand fundamentals don't chance very quickly. Not much has changed in Cupertino. It's not like what's happening in North Dakota. So prices will continue to fall closer to the supply and demand fundamentals thinking they are still being affected by mortgage practices and the adjacent money changing practices.

I think there is enough money to fuel the bubble in small enclaves with good schools. Many tech couples are DINK (dual income no kids) making entry level salaries + bonus of > 200K. At my stage low to mid thirties this number crosses 300K for most couples I know.

On top of this people buy more house then they need around 4X income and in good school districts. And thats why the 1million per home rate is becoming sort of standard for anything in MV, Cupertino and PA.

Agree that Cupertino has nothing interesting going on like university ave, castro or santana row..but these folks are more in piano lessons and after school programs so they probably are in a stage of their lives that they dont care.

toothfairy says

It's a myth to think that all asians are wealthy high tech workers. we have about 2x as many Asians in Oakland than Cupertino.

Yeah,but the ones in Cupertino are the rich ones financed from black money in Shanghai. LOL. This whole Chinese thing never goes away. Every few weeks someone attributes these prices to the rich Asians.

justwantaniceplacetostay says

On top of this people buy more house then they need around 4X income and in good school districts. And thats why the 1million per home rate is becoming sort of standard for anything in MV, Cupertino and PA.

I agree that if people are willing to spend their entire lives in massive amounts of debt so that at the end of their lives they have enough money to feel like they did okay, the economy will continue to grow, get propped, at the expense of these people and to the benefit of the people who have enough money to loan them.

You've stated gross incomes and then multiplied those as a way of determining house prices. I don't understand why anyone thinks this is reasonable. I don't know about you, but I don't get to spend my gross income on anything. So using that number to determine affordability of anything is only a great sales job by people with enough money to loan it out with interest.

Goran_K says

I think prices will come down, but I don't see a 65% crash like some of the extreme bears are claiming.

A 15% drop in Cupertino housing is at least a 65% drop in wealth for many families that bought during the hype. Remember that leverage thingy. Even in Cupertino people haven't built up any equity these last 5 years. I don't know about you, but losing any money at all pisses me off.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Even in Cupertino people haven't built up any equity these last 5 years.

RentingForHalfTheCost,

Forget about it. Some people here will never get this.

bubblesitter says

toothfairy says

It's a myth to think that all asians are wealthy high tech workers. we have about 2x as many Asians in Oakland than Cupertino.

Yeah,but the ones in Cupertino are the rich ones financed from black money in Shanghai. LOL. This whole Chinese thing never goes away. Every few weeks someone attributes these prices to the rich Asians.

pretty soon they'll be attributing Palo Alto prices to NBA money. LOL
LINSANITY!

justwantaniceplacetostay says

I think there is enough money to fuel the bubble in small enclaves with good schools. Many tech couples are DINK (dual income no kids) making entry level salaries + bonus of > 200K. At my stage low to mid thirties this number crosses 300K for most couples I know.

On top of this people buy more house then they need around 4X income and in good school districts. And thats why the 1million per home rate is becoming sort of standard for anything in MV, Cupertino and PA.

Agree that Cupertino has nothing interesting going on like university ave, castro or santana row..but these folks are more in piano lessons and after school programs so they probably are in a stage of their lives that they dont care.

Go to Citydata.com. the number just don't support your statement. Yes its a high income area, but the vast majority of families make less then 150k, dink or not.

toothfairy says

It's a myth to think that all asians are wealthy high tech workers. we have about 2x as many Asians in Oakland than Cupertino.

Oakland isn't seen as a desirable city to live in except in the hills. The school district itself performs poorly overall.

It's not really a great comparison.

justwantaniceplacetostay says

I think there is enough money to fuel the bubble in small enclaves with good schools. Many tech couples are DINK (dual income no kids) making entry level salaries + bonus of > 200K. At my stage low to mid thirties this number crosses 300K for most couples I know.

I agree with this. There's only 38 houses for sale right now. The fact that the median income is $119k means nothing. All you need is 38 couples making a good chunk of money, and all of the houses currently listed are gone. Since 2009, lending standards have been extremely strict, so you know everyone who has bought since 2009 has had to qualify for these $1M+ homes. Chances are those people are making $300k+ or have a lot of cash.

tiny tina says

Chances are those people are making $300k+ or have a lot of cash.

If you see the daily commute, its no wonder many actually live in San Jose and Fremont. They also are dual income no kids. For $1M dollars, instead of a 1100 sq ft shack in cupertino or Palo Alto, you can actually get a home in So San Jose, like SilverCreek.

http://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Jose/5450-Arezzo-Dr-95138/home/1319283

toothfairy says

As far as Round Rock Texas the problem with a low barrier to entry on housing prices is there's no exclusivity. You may be a Dell executive living in your 180k house and you could easily find that your next door neighbor works part time at the local Walmart.

Why should there be exclusivity today, when none existed for decades in SV before.

tiny tina says

Chances are those people are making $300k+ or have a lot of cash.

Strange thing about DINKs making over 300k. Many of them will not survive together. The job stress on top of the stagnant house prices have forced many to split. That percentage does anything but help the house prices. Best case one person takes over the house and is now paying off a 600-800k mortgage with a 150-200k salary. I know many in this situation and I almost went there myself years ago. DINK can be a negative as well as positive, nothing is set in stone in this market.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Strange thing about DINKs making over 300k. Many of them will not survive together.

In the case of SV,historically factual .. you have a 50/50 chance and the divorce "always" gets nasty over assets and alimony.

Serpentor says

Go to Citydata.com. the number just don't support your statement. Yes its a high income area, but the vast majority of families make less then 150k, dink or not.

Number of families with income > $150+: Cupertino:
17.2% (2,453)
California:
7.3% (611,270)

Number of families with income > $200k: Cupertino:
25.7% (3,654)
State:
7.2% (601,155)

42.9% makes above 150K.

http://www.city-data.com/income/income-Cupertino-California.html#ixzz1mVpLDwPM

That is based on census data in 2009 which is surely understated and a lot higher in 2012.

In any case, Cupertino is hardly a dink's area. It has the highest concentration of families with kids by far in California.

SFace says

49.4% makes above 150K.
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/income/income-Cupertino-California.html#ixzz1mVpLDwPM
That is based on census data in 2009 which is surely understated and a lot higher in 2012.

lol!
How do you count 3-4 unrelated unmarried professionals renting rooms in a house (house sharing) each earning pretty good money, but not enough to rent their own home.

Answer: many are not families...

nationality, would be foreign citizen i take it ?

Or do you mean by race...

If your thinking Chinese Citizen.. that would be troubling,
since its illegal to do so as is with many other foreign nationalists.

would have had better luck buying land in Northern Louisiana.
Natural Gas deposits are paying out some rich royalty...

As far as the Asians in Cupertino... stupid and foolish to buy as we are unable to maintain rich salaries to keep these prices high enough.. what do these rich asians expect next years appreciation.. 10-15-20%.. really really stupid...and when the micro bubble in Cupertino pops.. I sure wont pay for thier mistake.

E-man says

To me, the people that buy in Cupertino are hard working professionals, who are doing well, but not rich yet. The rich live in Palo Alto

The working professionals live in many parts of the county, I have my payroll records, for the past 30 years, that atest to that fact.

The "rich" dont live in PA.. there are better places like Woodside, SilverCreek, Saratoga & LG Mts. A 1000 sq ft shack is hardly a millionairs mansion. I have known CEOs, CFOs, VC, for the past 30 years and none live in PA.

This will take some time to unwind, but unwind it will and these same foolish Asians buying into Cupertino will suffer some pretty big hits to so called home wealth.

http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/americas-most-affluent-neighborhoods.html

FunTime says

I agree that if people are willing to spend their entire lives in massive amounts of debt so that at the end of their lives they have enough money to feel like they did okay, the economy will continue to grow, get propped, at the expense of these people and to the benefit of the people who have enough money to loan them.

You've stated gross incomes and then multiplied those as a way of determining house prices. I don't understand why anyone thinks this is reasonable.

From what I have seen, most people get peer pressured or wife pressured into living in debt and thats what keeps prices like this. Hoping this supply will run out. In the last 2 years all the new recruits into my department have bought homes few months after starting work. Many with 120K plus salaries using FHA loans as well.

I think the safe mortage rule for banks was 3X annual gross not net income.

Cupertino is a brand for the brand conscious. If you come into money and you have friends and family overseas, you want to tell them that you live in a place with a name they would recognize and go "oooh s/he's done good for themselves!" without saying out loud "look at me, I'm a rich bastard". The brand conscious would never live somewhere so pedestrian like Milpinis. Who knows how long the Coop will retain its cachet. A rash of high profile murders or even worst- bad test grades, or if Oakland all the sudden becomes the rage... but the point is that it does have appeal so if buyers consider it North 90210, then folks will pay for it by any means necessary including pooling family money together.

I attended De Anza College back in the days when I was young, dum, and full of gum. Cupertino never struck me as anything special and the only place I gravitated to during those days was the el cheapo Miyake Japanese restaurant when I got tired of eating ramen and chilling at my friend's swanky house next to De Anza. He wasn't particularly hard working or high scoring, in fact he was a lazy bum just like me which made it all the better since he and I would go crazy over Wing Commander and the day we set up an ethernet network using COAX cable (none of that RJ-45 nonsense) to play Warcraft will be a glorious day forever etched into my neural circuit.

When the tech boom hit and I came into some money, I never even considered buying in the Coop. As a matter of fact, I wanted to git the flock out of the Bay Area completely. My reasoning was that the whole Northern Hemisphere was getting inundated by too many male engineers and it seemed like such a frackin sausage factory. I had a few female friends who thought they were 8's but were really 6's because of all the attention they got. And the converse applied- because I'm a guy, I had to lower my number by 1 or 2 due to overcrowding. That meant if I wanted to get any game, I would have to go dancin with the coyotes. Long story short, I escaped the GitNo Bay and am in the process of trying to live happily ever after, but that's hard to do because the only thing that would really make me complete is if I had my own pet Orc.

Sorry I went off topic. All this talk of Cupertino had me reminiscing of days bygone...