patrick.net

yea ... good luck with that. What if you're wrong?

As for the splinters from the same branch .... I too see it as man making a pile of junk from something very simple. I do not see it as a pile of junk that man is having trouble putting together ... it's the opposite.

The only Bible based reason I can recall, that explained all of the different "paths" to God being "ok", went something like this: Each person will seek God in their own way, and it is not up to you(others) to judge them or cause them to doubt their path ("dont be a stumbling block") .. God will do what he will do. Some will be called to swap from Church X to Church Z, and back and forth. Think of it a little like having someone paint by the numbers. But, changing the color that each number stands for. And then, changing the locations of the different numbers themselves, with the end result being the exact same picture, with the same exact colors in the exact same places, only getting there by a different process. Kinda like that. Or, like a blind guy going through a maze, following a bell sound ... while a def guy is going through the same maze following the blinking light, while the blind and def guy is following the thumping vibration coming from the bell with the blinking lights that is making thumping vibrations. 3 guys, 3 paths, one bell. Any chance that helps?

That might be a good analogy. I just don't see why God didn't make a clearer revelation. If God really wants to reveal himself to people, then why allow such confusion? Why allow us to be blind/deaf and stumble through the maze in the first place?

I want to believe. But the simplest explanation is that Christianity is just another religion invented by humans.

The various religions of the world contradict each other. The denominatons within Christianity contradict each other: predestination vs. free will, infant baptism or no, salvation by faith vs. works, real presence of Christ in the eucharist or no, etc. They can't all be right. They could all be wrong, but they can't all be correct.

To those who say "well you're only talking about those silly evangelical/fundamentalist Christians", I say to you: you're full of shit too. Liberal pseudo-Christianity is a totally different religion than historic Christianity. There's a big difference between the theology of Paul, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, etc and liberal Christianity. Liberal Christianity is believing in somewhere between zero and an infinite number of gods; and believing somewhere between everything and nothing. In other words, it's just bullshit. It isn't right...it isn't even wrong! At least the evangelicals make specific claims about the real world. Those claims have been shown to be false, but at least they are "testable" claims.

Bap33 says

yea ... good luck with that. What if you're wrong?

But, Bap -- what if you are wrong?

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wthrfrk80 says

Will the bureaucracy that is the "true" mouthpiece of God please stand up?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/WnsLzHYRtts

Well for me its more about the earth. I have no religion. Have dabbled in the past. I am very sad. For any people that live according to rules written for them. It should be more of what you think is true. Especially not of synthetic culture. The earth will help you.

Believe it or not you actually belong here. Not a religion. The earth is real and of many substance. It feeds you. Houses you. Grows your childern. It even grew your spouse. No religion did that. No God does that. People get curious. How do I breath? How do I walk? Once again all from the earth.

I see endless worrying about food and housing. The earth no matter who tells you different. Is the source. Not God. Not Wal-Mart. Not Religion. Not people telling you THEY are the source. So stick to whats real. There are things you don't screw around with on the earth. They do things of course. Like lead. Lead does something for the earth. Not ment to be taken. You leave it alone. That brings up science. Science can be very dangerous. Science gave you bullets, napalm, oil (obvious). Steel (very dangerous). I hate science and scientists. They are nerdy little killers in my opinion. Not very smart either. They need to leave things alone. I don't like them at all. Freaks of nature. That don't really like the earth or people.

It gave you medicine. Thing is with that not many people get sick. The earth takes care of you that well. You can even take away a lot of the sick that screw around with things ment to be left alone.

I could show you right now how to build a house. Takes no wood (wood is very complicated). You don't even need to use tools. It would last you 30-40 years. But then again you live on the same earth. You need to start recognizing that and stop living in outer space.

You need to recognize to you only LIVE on the earth. Your not ALL THAT. You just have been taught to think you are. That there are things on the earth MUCH GREATER THAN YOU. In short humans are small dots on a really big earth. In short you need to respect things greater than you. You do that it just might be a little more friendly around here.

http://youtu.be/a3HemKGDavw

rAmbLe oN

Artimus...what are you talking about?

In regards to what wth?

Any of it. Are you saying I should "worship" the earth?

I'm not sure what worship means. I believe its latin for "Whore-Ship" See the Romans had "Whore-ships" sailing all over the Mediterranean. I don't think you can "Whore-ship" the earth, no.

Bizarre...

Yup. That ain't all there was a lot of confusion. When a whore-ship tried to dock in a fishing village. Thats when the fishermen started calling them hookers. See a hooker was a fisherman on a boat. Not all fishermen were hookers. Some put the catch in the hold. Some did this. Some did that. The women that came to the side of the boat. They nicknamed "hookers".

http://youtu.be/1BDJt30FmzI

ArtimusMaxtor says

I'm not sure what worship means. I believe its latin for "Whore-Ship" See the Romans had "Whore-ships" sailing all over the Mediterranean. I don't think you can "Whore-ship" the earth, no.

Nope, while l love a story about prostitution, it is actually from "worth" not "whore", and "ship" was not referring to a literal nautical sailing vessel.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=worship&allowed_in_frame=0
worship (n.)
O.E. worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (W.Saxon) "condition of being worthy, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship). Sense of "reverence paid to a supernatural or divine being" is first recorded c.1300. The original sense is preserved in the title worshipful (c.1300). The verb is recorded from c.1200.

ArtimusMaxtor says

Yup. That ain't all there was a lot of confusion. When a whore-ship tried to dock in a fishing village. Thats when the fishermen started calling them hookers. See a hooker was a fisherman on a boat. Not all fishermen were hookers. Some put the catch in the hold. Some did this. Some did that. The women that came to the side of the boat. They nicknamed "hookers".

Yeah, not quite right either:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=hooker&searchmode=none

hooker
"prostitute," often traced to the disreputable morals of the Army of the Potomac (American Civil War) under the tenure of Gen. "Fighting Joe" Hooker (early 1863), and the word might have been popularized by this association at that time (though evidence is wanting). But it is reported to have been in use in North Carolina c.1845 ("[I]f he comes by way of Norfolk he will find any number of pretty Hookers in the Brick row not far from French's hotel. Take my advice and touch nothing in the shape of a prostitute when you come through Raleigh, for in honest truth the clap is there of luxuriant growth." letter quoted in Norman E. Eliason, "Tarheel Talk," 1956).

One early theory traces it to Corlear's Hook, a section of New York City.

HOOKER. A resident of the Hook, i.e. a strumpet, a sailor's trull. So called from the number of houses of ill-fame frequented by sailors at the Hook (i.e. Corlear's Hook) in the city of New York. [John Russell Bartlett, "Dictionary of Americanisms," 1859]

Perhaps related to hooker "thief, pickpocket" (1560s), but most likely an allusion to prostitutes hooking or snaring clients. Hook in the figurative sense of "that by which anyone is attracted or caught" is recorded from early 15c.; and hook (v.) in the figurative sense of "catch hold of and draw in" is attested from 1570s; in reference to "fishing" for a husband or a wife, it was in common use from c.1800. All of which makes the modern sense seem a natural step. Cf. Fr. accrocheuse, raccrocheuse, common slang term for "street-walker, prostitute," lit. "hooker" of men.

The family name Hooker (attested from c.975 C.E.) would mean "maker of hooks," or else refer to an agricultural laborer who used a hook (cf. O.E. weodhoc "weed-hook").

ArtimusMaxtor says

I'm not sure what worship means.

Oh, so now that we got all the "whore-ship" business out of the way I can help you out here:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worship

worship
noun
1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5. ( initial capital letter ) British . a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually preceded by Your, His, or Her ).
verb (used with object)
6. to render religious reverence and homage to.
7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).
8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.
9. to attend services of divine worship.
10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.

As you can see consistent with the etymology.

I hope this helps.

Son, Jesus, doesn't need your forgiveness.

Not really, You left out the Latin. Try doing a search on Whore ships in the Mediterranean. I hope this helps. Or try Whore ships of the Roman Empire.

ArtimusMaxtor says

Try doing a search on Whore Ships in the Mediterranean. I hope this helps.

You are going to have to send me a specific link. "Whore Ships in the Mediterranean" Google search did not have any results similar to your story (on the first page at least).

An interesting story, but the "whore-ships" are moot. They have nothing to do with the etymology of the word "worship".

Not really. Just because its not on the web does not mean it's not true. I mean they weren't like ocean liners filled with whores. Just small vessels filled with hookers for the officers in the Roman Army.

hook·er
2    [hook-er]

noun Nautical .
1.
Slang . any old-fashioned or clumsy vessel.

2.
any fishing vessel working with hooks and lines rather than nets.

I've got to go now. Leo your a pretty nice guy. I won't belabour the point. Just to say you just might know Rome and all the Catholic BS. Don't get me wrong, once again. Its a great place to have a drink and meet a babe. Its a great social organization. However its not unlike them to pull BS like that. I know to many and have been there. I actually consider you sane. Some of that stuff that comes with that "Church" I just don't know. I don't have a "religion" some of the stuff they do seems very strange.

ArtimusMaxtor says

Not really. Just because its not on the web does not mean it's not true. I mean they weren't like ocean liners filled with whores. Just small vessels filled with hookers for the officers in the Roman Army.

OH, yeah don't get me wrong. The story is believable, I am just not sure on the etymology of the words "hooker" and "worship". Prostitutes following military is an age old tradition. I think that the French Foreign Legion is the only "modern" western military that still has dedicated prostitutes.

ArtimusMaxtor says

I actually consider you sane.

Thanks.

NP Leoj. I noticed your list of all the religions. Really comprehensive. The Catholic Church is actually due to dealmaking. Some would not be so suprised at the players. It's soothing pablum to people who otherwise not have a God or an end to look forward to as they drudge their lives trying to be good for the bitter end. For the perpetrators of religious hoax. So they can make out with things like cheap labor. While the believers sit there and patiently take it. I consider that a rotten trick on people.

Our ancestors might understand the deals struck. Like I say not such a nice thing to do. We that are considered counter-culture. Or actually people that are not fooled. Find that being ruled by moray's that are part of a fake religion. Outrageous.

Which actually then includes us in religion as counter-culture. I don't much care for that.

See thats what I noticed. How can you include people. That have their own way of life. In religion. That aren't for the most part, part of any BS religion. Because they aren't stupid enough to be in religion.

My point is they organize religious people. Whole country is filled with churchs. Some people find that amazing. I find that a well behaved labor force, draftee's, good citizens without a thought to themselves. Working for others once again. Quietly. Taking out debt that makes them owe for a lifetime. Which their shitbag church's never bring up as usury.

I'm going to be the friend. I have always been. Didn't start yesterday. Goes back decades. If your organized in any way. If any of those organizations you may belong to get recognized on the debt merchant owned media. Or are affiliated with the ones tha dot get recognized. LOOK OUT. Because the people that engage in that kind of stuff (see above) are skilled manipulators and they are just screwing you.

See the game is hope against hope be a good boy till the next ruling. That disperses the angry and quells anger. So what you thought. Is true. I hate to see my good friends being jerked around and made fools of. If your categorized as religious or something of. Thats basically what they do with you. Also, really keep an eye on your "spokesmen" you might just have some really swift bastards in there doing that for them. Not really high level people. Just people doing it for the cash or the ones they owe or for a jobbie.

You'll go along with what they want in one form or another hoping against hope for a favorable ruling. When you don't get it. You will entrench yourself further in your selection of THEIR part of the system. Democrat, Republican or Independent. Divide up and have at it. They love that. The religious argument getting even larger. Giving religion even more validity. Which it does not deserve. The people that engage in doing these things to the populace are diabolical, no doubt.

Take note comes at primary time. When they run their phoney business. The one thing they have a hard time keeping down. That really makes them squirm. Is a minority in charge of a majority. Has never happened unless artificially induced in the history of the world. If you can ever get yourself out of the device. That they have so cleverly put you in. Just like all the people caught in the device of religion. You'll see. What suffering patiently is all about. Thats really setting yourself free.

So get ready for a little pander'n. A little song and dance possibly. If even from your part of the world. Be good. Cause you know things. They don't want you to know. They will just haul out the old routine anytime things get rough on them. Thats what really happened.

I'm not so easily caught in a trap. What you will see is maybe you have not been good. Therefore. In addition you must understand in order to validate religion. The little farce must go on and on. In order to keep you in line the same must continue. One always hoping the other one will come to their senses or the argument will be settled. Which never happens. Its just to spiffy a game for them to let to happen.

Can we get back to the topic of Christianity? How did we get to talking about whores on ships?

wthrfrk80 says

Can we get back to the topic of Christianity? How did we get to talking about whores on ships?

Sure I'm game.

Christianity has the virtue of praising the poor while also getting them to stop questioning the continuous forced transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

If Jesus may come at any minute, then the unfairness taking from the poor and giving to the rich doesn't matter!

Better yet, the suppression of critical thought is elevated to the highest virtue. So the poor are explicitly instructed NOT to look for mistakes in what they are being taught. It's called "faith".

I don't have any problem with Jesus Himself. Excellent guy. Almost Buddha-like in wisdom. But the religion is definitely used by the rich to stay rich.

leoj707 says

Confucianism
Cao Dai
Juche
Mohism

Isn't that the political party that runs North Korea? What's the afterlife? Spending all of eternity as a really short guy in elevator shoes watching porn tapes? (I guess there could be worse fates...?)

leoj707 says

Happy Science

I ain't even gonna google that one. For once, I honestly do NOT want to know.

leoj707 says

Sithism

LOL, what?

PS: you forgot Pastafarianism a/k/a Flying Spaghetti Monsterism.

I don't have any problem with Jesus Himself. Excellent guy. Almost Buddha-like in wisdom. But the religion is definitely used by the rich to stay rich.

Not really a fair criticism. Buddhist monks were some of the biggest propagandists for getting Japanese to sign up as kamikaze pilots, and Tibetan Buddhism is historically actually one of the most savage theocracies that's ever existed.

'Course both Christianity and Buddhism have been "syncretized" to the point I doubt Jesus or Buddha would recognize their respective faiths. (Though I do think it is kinda cool that the Ethiopian branch of Coptic Christianity has as one of their main saints...Pontius Pilate, of all people. If I'd known that back in the day, I'd have asked to take that as my saint name at Confirmation time. Of course, the Catholic Church has no Saint Pontius Pilate, but maybe I could've snuck it through. After all, he is a saint, just not a Catholic one.)

Full disclosure – I’m a practicing Roman Catholic.

I also volunteer teaching religious education to 6th graders one day a week.

I’ll tell you what I tell my students… keep seeking truth, and you’ll find it.

More to the point – Christians by definition believe Jesus was “The Christ” the anointed one. The Messiah. What that means we can debate ad nauseam from a theological and historical perspective. In truth, the genealogy of the various denominations is quite interesting. But at the end of the day 1) Jesus was Jewish – what has become Christianity is a convention of his follows – and their attempt to emulate him and implement his teachings. 2) Christians across a wide swath of denominations mostly agree on Jesus’ teachings – that is to say what he said as related in the four “traditional gospels” plus portions of the Gnostic texts, Gospel Q, etc.

Religion is an attempt by man to understand God and answer fundamental questions – who am I? why am I here? How should I treat my fellow man? On a deeper level its an attempt to grapple with what sets us apart from other animals, how we deal with our own motility, and things of that sort.

Even if you think Christianity is a bunch of BS and don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God. I’d still encourage you to study his teachings. If you keep an open mind, you’d be surprised at how much they resonate with you.

Some of the eastern philosophies encapsulate the same spirit. The essence that our time is finite, and we must treat each other with dignity, respect and compassion. Remember – there are many paths, but only one way. Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Zoroastrian – the core tenants are virtual identical – love your god with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. The rest will take its own path from there, but the goal eternal oneness with the creator, is the same. I wish you luck in your search.

Darwin proved that Christianity is BS. There never was a Garden of Eden paradise with no death, and humans are not "special" relative to other life forms. Death and suffering have always been; it was not the result of Adam and Eve disobeying God.

Paul links Christs death on the cross to salvation. Paul says, as in Adam all die, as in Christ so all shall be made alive.

So much for Paul's supposed divine inspiration.

I suppose if Christianity is reduced to "Jesus was a nice wise philosopher who pissed off the authorities and got whacked", then Christianity is "true." But all the stuff about sin, atonement, salvation, and eternal life is BS. Darwin proved that.

The folks in Dayton, Tennessee knew the implications of evolution, so they fought it. Yes, they looked like fools, but at least they knew what they were up against.

I don't have any problem with Jesus Himself. Excellent guy. Almost Buddha-like in wisdom.

The Buddha comparison was kind of a joke. Of course Christians would say Jesus is far superior, so it was a little provocation on my part. Sorry.

But seriously, Jesus and Buddha had remarkably similar teachings about defeating hate with love. A kind of moral judo. Knowledge of Buddhism had made it to Greece and Egypt before Jesus was born, so there could easily have been some adoption in Christianity of Buddhist ideas.

Lumpenprole says

Isn't that the political party that runs North Korea? What's the afterlife? Spending all of eternity as a really short guy in elevator shoes watching porn tapes? (I guess there could be worse fates...?)

Yes, and it is a religion in that the "dear leader" is essentially divine, and revered as such. Many supernatural instances are attributed to him; such as upon his birth winter spontaneously turned to spring. Of course my favorite being that he neither poops or pees.

Lumpenprole says

leoj707 says

Sithism

LOL, what?

PS: you forgot Pastafarianism a/k/a Flying Spaghetti Monsterism.

Damn, I tried deleting the "silly" religions -- i.e. religions that even the followers have never actually believed to be true -- from the list, but it looks like I missed one.

*ah, hemm...*
not that "real" religions have any more evidence to prove their "truth" than a "silly" religion does

leoj707 says

Of course my favorite being that he neither poops or pees.

In Catholic school (3rd grade) we students speculated that nuns do not poop or pee because they were never observed to enter or exit any bathroom.

Lumpenprole says

Not really a fair criticism. Buddhist monks were some of the biggest propagandists for getting Japanese to sign up as kamikaze pilots, and Tibetan Buddhism is historically actually one of the most savage theocracies that's ever existed.

Yes, thank you. This is something that most people don't seem to know or like to forget.

While I am not fan of how the Chinese government chooses to treat people a good argument can be made that the average Tibetan is better off and more "fairly" treated under the current Chinese rule that they were under the opulent theocratic -- and yes savage -- dictatorship run by the Dali-lama. Only after his failure to seize power through violent means the Lama turned to peace, love and Hollywood.

It is amazing to me that people take the Dali-lama so seriously.

leoj707 says

Of course my favorite being that he neither poops or pees.

In Catholic school (3rd grade) we students speculated that nuns do not poop or pee because they were never observed to enter or exit any bathroom.

Funny, perhaps you did not see the large deliveries of adult diapers coming in the back door.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

Even if you think Christianity is a bunch of BS and don’t believe that Jesus was the son of God. I’d still encourage you to study his teachings. If you keep an open mind, you’d be surprised at how much they resonate with you.

I agree that people should at least have some familiarity with the bible, and read it with an open mind.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Zoroastrian – the core tenants are virtual identical – love your god with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Hmmm... see, it is comments like this that make me think you have not been reading the bible with an open mind. When Jesus preaches: hate your family, and he is here to bring the sword not peace, and true followers can drink poison and not be harmed, etc. a person with an open mind does not cherry pick around these teachings and try to explain them away as metaphor. And, don't forget that as a christian if you see your neighbor mowing their lawn on a Sunday you need to rush over there and kill them -- as god's law commands.

Also, if love -- of god, and neighbors -- were such a core tenant of christianity then why are they not in the 10 commandments. In these core christian beliefs god commands your worship, and will punish those that hate him, but does not ask for love. He does however command that you show mercy to others that love him. As far as neighbors go don't commit any erotic thought crime concerning his wife, but nothing about being nice to your neighbor let alone loving them.

I do appreciate your disclosure, and comments, but I just don't think that reading the bible with a truly open mind will have the results that you are hoping for.

The problem is that the bible is a very poor moral guide. The teaching therein can and has been used to support and endorse any behavior. With the understanding of course that the perpetrator of such acts worships El Shaddai, and follows some "minor" rules like don't wear cotton wool blends, or how to properly beat your slaves.

In my moral view probably one of the worst things someone can do is abuse and rape children. If I was god -- which by the way, no one can prove that I am not -- that would be #1 on my list of "thou shall not" commandments. There is no direct prohibition on raping and murdering kids in the bible, but I guess that is all just part of gods plan.

leoj707 says

Of course my favorite being that he neither poops or pees.

In Catholic school (3rd grade) we students speculated that nuns do not poop or pee because they were never observed to enter or exit any bathroom.

Oh, I almost forgot about "Everybody Poops" has been debunked. So maybe the Kim Jung Ill and the nuns have found a way around it.

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2011/03/everyone-poops-debunked.html

Now, “everybody poops” is a conjecture based on the rather shallow theory that everybody eats, and since what goes in must come out, everybody poops. So, what about the male of the moth detailed in Dr. Tatiana's Sex Advice to All Creation: The Definitive Guide to the Evolutionary Biology of Sex by Olivia Judson? This moth lays its eggs in the ears of bats. When the eggs hatch, there is one male and several females. The male incestuously mates with his sisters, who then fly away to find bats of their own, while the male stays behind and dies. Most interestingly, the male is born without mouth parts, and therefore cannot eat. To paraphrase St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 3:10, “If a moth will not eat, he shall not poop.” So much for the brave conjecture.

I've never seen one take a shit. I'm sure it happens way more than we suspect. It's even at the door. There is also another verse in the bible that says "If a moth will not eat. He will not hump" It's a hidden verse. It has to do with eating but than again who the fuck cares.

HOLY SHIT! MIC CHECK.