patrick.net

Dan8267 says

Forcing a Christian prayer on a student should be as offensive as forcing an Islamic or Wiccan prayer on a student.

How can that be if only one person has a problem with it ?

marcus says

How can that be if only one person has a problem with it ?

A group of 200 hard-core convicts escape from prison and establish a town in the foothills. One day a lost woman wanders into that down and is viciously gang raped by the 200 townsfolk. Only one person out of the 201 in the town has a problem with this. That's how it can be wrong even if only one person objects.

Dan8267 says

So, if the majority of red necks in a Georgia town wanted the Confederate Navy flag posted in a high school, but the lone black student felt threatened by it, you're attitude would be "fuck you, bro!"? Can't say I agree.

Perfect analogy.

Majority by most definitions means more than half. MY guess is that almost nobody had a problem with that banner. If there were more than one or two, then I would have a different opinion.

There's no point in my arguing this. Your extremism speaks for itself.

Besides, I have work to do.

Dan8267 says

That's how it can be wrong if only one person objects.

Another perfect analogy.

marcus says

Perfect analogy.

Majority by most definitions means more than half. MY guess is that almost nobody had a problem with that banner.

OK, so let's say that none of the white Georgian townsfolk have a problem with the Confederate Navy Jack and all of them like it. It's still wrong, and it's reasonable for the black student to object to it.

Dan8267 says

Your perception of me does not reflect reality. Nor could your mind comprehend my thoughts. It's best you simply accept that you are incapable of understanding me as I can't dumb down me enough for you to understand.

Choice Dan quote.

You're an extremist, and that's a fact.

marcus says

Another perfect analogy.

Counter-example, not analogy.

Dan8267 says

Man does not need a god to justify his lust for land and riches.

The Jamestown colonist came here without anything and were not for any quest (lust) for land and riches.

Dan8267 says

Counter-example, not analogy.

It would be a counter example, if the situations were analogous.

But then again, I'm not prepared to think at your level, so I'm probably wrong.

Dan8267 says

No, you dumb ass. Saying that someone is an extremist is an expression of opinion

I know an extremist when I see one. And you sir are an extremist.

thomas.wong1986 says

The Jamestown colonist came here without anything and were not for any quest (lust) for land and riches.

The Jamestown colonists didn't found America. If you are talking about the founding of a nation as being a great thing accomplished by Christianity, I would say that's not accurate. If you are talking about a few Christians fleeing other Christians to set up their own little power base, then I'd say that's not a great achievement.

Dan8267 says

The Apollo 8 mission was a product of science, not Christianity. Reciting of Bible passages in space carries no more weight than Yuri Gagarin's quote "I see no god up here.".

As quoted in To Rise from Earth (1996) by Wayne Lee; some websites quote him as saying "I looked and looked and looked but I didn't see God." on 14 April 1961, a couple days after his historic flight, but the authenticity of such statements have been disputed; Colonel Valentin Petrov stated in 2006 that the cosmonaut never said such words, and that the quote originated from Nikita Khrushchev's speech at the plenum of the Central Committee of the CPSU about the state's anti-religion campaign, saying "Gagarin flew into space, but didn't see any god there."

Gagarin himself was a member of the Russian Orthodox Church.

marcus says

I know an extremist when I see one. And you sir are an extremist.

Fine, call me an extremist. I'll call you a terrorist. Deal?

wthrfrk said it really well in another thread.

wthrfrk80 says

Liv4ever, you make a good case for atheism.

Dan, you make a good case for religion.

thomas.wong1986 says

Gagarin himself was a member of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Any the significance of this is? As I said, it bears no weight. Would you give up your belief in your god if Gagarin had said this? Why would I accept Christianity because someone paid by the military with our tax payer dollars read a passage from the Bible in space?

It's irrelevant.

Dan8267 says

If you are talking about a few Christians fleeing other Christians to set up their own little power base, then I'd say that's not a great achievement.

Oh well .. another atheist. Your not getting any sympathy around here.

marcus says

wthrfrk said it really well in another thread.

wthrfrk80 says

Liv4ever, you make a good case for atheism.

Dan, you make a good case for religion.

Hey, if you want to be religious, feel free to worship me. At least, I'm real. Donations are tax-free, right?

thomas.wong1986 says

Oh well .. another atheist. Your not getting any sympathy around here.

I don't ask for sympathy. I ask for reason.

Dan8267 says

Fine, call me an extremist.

The ironic part is that your religiosity and wanting to cram your religion down other peoples throats is what you hate in others. Hmmmm...

Dan8267 says

OK, so let's say that none of the white Georgian townsfolk have a problem with the Confederate Navy Jack and all of them like it. It's still wrong, and it's reasonable for the black student to object to it.

Black College Student Wins Right To Hang Confederate Flag In Dorm Room!

http://www.youtube.com/embed/RvSg0buZiTk

African American college student Byron Thomas has been thrown in to the national spotlight behind his support of the Confederate flag. The 19 year old student at the University of South Carolina Beaufort proudly mounted the banner in his dorm room window because, in his words, “When I look at this flag, I don’t see racism. I see respect, Southern pride… This flag was seen as a communication symbol” during the Civil War. And Byron Thomas is aware of the irony of it all admitting, “I know it’s kind of weird because I’m black

thomas.wong1986 says

Black College Student Wins Right To Hang Confederate Flag In Dorm Room!

Yes, in his dorm. His home. Proves my point.

You can do what you want in your own home, but you can't force others to do what you want.

The girl in this article didn't say people couldn't pray in their homes. She said the Christian prayer shouldn't be public school cannon. And neither is the Confederate Navy Jack in your example. As such, your counter-example doesn't contradict my example.

marcus says

The ironic part is that your religiosity and wanting to cram your religion down other peoples throats is what you hate in others. Hmmmm...

If you cannot distinguish between passionately arguing for or against a position with making death threats to your opposition, then you are an idiot.

What the....

Well I for one am very, very skeptical of things like the inquisition. Religious wars etc. Such things are used to titillate religion "zombies".

I can see it being used by the leaders of a country to "incite" their "religous" population into doing something. The leaders of countries who are usually swindlers of sorts. Way to fast to buy into religious bullshit. They have to know whats real and whats not. Are after property, booty, land something of value.

Books are filled with bullshit of the past. Just look at the bullshit going on today. Leaders of nations are portrayed in some at the very least "righteous cause" That would appeal to either the Humane morals" or "Religious morals" of a person.

I believe that "morals" or real indignation really appears in places where the population as a whole decides to take a cause on with little leadership and overthrow the outrages perpatrated against them. For everyday people to do that takes a lot.

When it swings on a common axis. Like centeralized leadership. Look out there is going to be all kinds of manipulation on many different levels of the population. Another words look carefully at how they are trying to incite different parts of their populations.

That might be what "some" are saying here because they are victims of such incitements. In a sly way by their governments. Then on a very different level by religion itself. Some look at it as simply "education" of people that are programmed to be religious or caught up in such. Even that is done in such a way as to incite religious at the present time. It in of itself may do the same thing.

It would take something like the Vatican coming out and saying look this is what we did. These are the reasons we did it. This is who we did it with and why.

Division is interesting. It alienates. Then again it binds people together in commonality on either side of the division. It brings on a hurried social structure around that comminality. It forms relationships with the people in the division. An entire structure dedicated to the opposition of the other side of the division. It sets up leadership (which you would be very, very suprised to find the dividers usually setting up) So they can "steer" the division wherever they want it to "go". Very few exceptions in that. There can be a binding or seperating of those divisions depending on what purpose they have. In this present case the centrifuge coming apart. Advanced knowledge. Not imparted. Well planned out. Then brought forward.

Dan8267 says

Man does not need a god to justify his lust for land and riches. Sure, it helps. But absent a god, man will find other excuses to slaughter the vulnerable and take their land and natural resources.

So you admit the possibility of "evil" without religion? And the possibility that religion might not be inherently evil, but is often twisted to justify inherent desires for land, resources, money, and power?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/dXYl5NrHPb4

Dan8267 says

I have yet to hear of a single incident in which a community of atheists have threatened or tried to punish a person for being a monotheist.

Maybe not in the USA...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union

Incidents are used to incite. Everyday people. Unless huddled in their oh so secret "division" hold their secrets fast.

People get along. Once I said. I can go anywhere I mean anywhere. In any city on earth and get along with the people in any part of any city. Same holds for you to if you have ever tried.

Reason comes into play. Its for various things. However being with someone not like you demands reason. Reason is an everyday protection. Really its a nice thing to have. It says you have a heart just like me. Sure we have differences. Maturity can work those out really well. Its always good to know when someone is trying to "game" you especially people you don't know. You look at whats coming out at you from a television or newspaper or some report. They are total strangers you never interact with. There is no reason only theirs and your reasoning with yourself. You never get to reason back so their is "no" relationship there. It's difficult in many cases for you to ascertain what they are up to. So you go out an find a "live" person to interact with based off of what someone you can't interact with said. Who's purpose you don't understand or know. Because there is no interaction.

Sure you know Becky from newsland. You see her everyday. Becky dosen't know shit from Shihana about you. You don't know what Becky's up to anymore than know what your best friend is up to at this minute. You don't completely trust your best friend. (you don't want him to think your an idiot). Why in the fuck would you trust Becky (who you can't test) a total stanger to tell you anything true?

The incitement forms once again a very fast combining of a division. They interact. Their social interaction picks up very fast. People fall for this shit every single day. I choose to ignore it for the most part. Seperating bullshit from whats real. It's nessesary because I don't like bringing crap into where my friends are to analyze.

You must also realize that what is true. Is a threat to the people that don't want that truth to be known. They have goals they want to accomplish. It leads to frustration in reaching that goal. You have to recognize that your goals are legitimate also. Your a person on this earth also. The faluire in all of this mentioned. Is no interaction which leads to frustration with one way communication. Your saying HEY I'm not stupid pay attention. I have your best interest at heart. Listen to this. Eliminate the part where they think your dumb and dumber. Then to - I have that ability. Recognize it. Then reason just possibly maybe can begin.... Before you think reason is easily obtained. Its not. Sometimes it requires jolting. Time and time again. Until the realization comes. Hey what we are dealing with here isn't stupidity it is something very, very serious. Time to engage in some human interaction. Because bullshit is not working on a very serious person. That once again has my best interests at heart. Time to let go and reason into a really nice future.

I've never understood how some of the most vocally patriotic people in the US can also be in favor of flying the confederate flag. Flying the confederate flag a seditious act. Making statements like "the south shall rise again" is a seditious act.

thomas.wong1986 says

You do realize the many European settlers who only had faith in GOD brought them to the new world. It wasnt technology, but faith and their religion that brought them here. Was that a move backward or holding society back. NO! And add to that the migration into the west.. all based on faith in God.

And not that long ago explores to the moon quoted the bible...I dont see anyone suing NASA or Apollo crew back in the 1960s for quoting the Bible or seperation of church and state. .

These great human achievements and faith in God is something to be proud of.. It make you proud being an American .. it makes you proud being a Christian.

And faith in god isn't going to get you across the Atlantic ocean or to the moon. If it did, people would have gotten to the moon well before 1969. Put your faith in god if you like, I'll put mine in people.

It is true that some of the original colonists were religious zealots of one sort or the other. Lucky for us the founding fathers constructed a state that is secular and allows us not only freedom of religion, but also freedom from religion. You want to pray, go pray in private. Don't force or drag people into it who want nothing to do with it.

It's just four words she could choose not to say them? Ok, it's just four words, how about everyone else just mentally add them themselves? Are christians not capable of such "strenuous" mental activity?

Christians need to stop confusing not getting their way 100% of the time with religious persecution.

omgbacon says

I've never understood how some of the most vocally patriotic people in the US can also be in favor of flying the confederate flag. Flying the confederate flag a seditious act. Making statements like "the south shall rise again" is a seditious act.

Therefore wearing a Lynyrd Skynyrd T-Shirt is treason...

Do you know of anyone calling any member of LS a biggot or racist, either in the 70s up to today ?

omgbacon says

And faith in god isn't going to get you across the Atlantic ocean or to the moon. If it did, people would have gotten to the moon well before 1969. Put your faith in god if you like, I'll put mine in people.

Ask yourself why they quoted the bible in Space during the Apollo 8 Moon mission ?

omgbacon says

It is true that some of the original colonists were religious zealots of one sort or the other. Lucky for us the founding fathers constructed a state that is secular and allows us not only freedom of religion, but also freedom from religion. You want to pray, go pray in private. Don't force or drag people into it who want nothing to do with it.

Thats not a fact, its only your opinion.. anyone can pray any place at any time, and the Govt cannot prohibit such actions.
Congress in public, starts its sessions with a prayer...

Below is Todays prayer as Congress met to start the day...

http://chaplain.house.gov/

Opening Prayer

02/16/2012
Reverend Patrick J. Conroy, S.J.

Eternal God, through whom we see what we could be and what we can become, thank You for giving us another day.

In these days, our Nation is faced with pressing issues of conscience, constitutional religious and personal rights, and matters of great political importance.

We thank You that so many Americans have been challenged and have risen to the exercise of their responsibilities as citizens to participate in the great debates of these days.

Grant wisdom, knowledge, and understanding to us all, as well as an extra measure of charity.

Send Your spirit upon the Members of this people's House who walk through this valley under public scrutiny. Give them peace and Solomonic prudence in their deliberations.

And may all that is done this day be for Your greater honor and glory.

Amen.

wthrfrk80 says

So you admit the possibility of "evil" without religion? And the possibility that religion might not be inherently evil, but is often twisted to justify inherent desires for land, resources, money, and power?

I've stated many times that religion is evil. Therefore, of course, I believe that evil exists. That does not require me to believe in a god or any religion.

And, of course, there are evil things in the world besides religion. That does not mean that religion isn't evil.

And religion is inherently evil as it requires the suspension of critical thinking an unquestioning following of doctrine, which is exactly why it appeals to power-hungry politicians.

wthrfrk80 says

Dan8267 says

I have yet to hear of a single incident in which a community of atheists have threatened or tried to punish a person for being a monotheist.

Maybe not in the USA...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union

We've already had this discussion. Do I have to post more topless pictures of Tom Selleck? Do a history search if you want to relive that discussion.

Dan8267 says

I've stated many times that religion is evil.

Nice that you have an opinion! But that all it is from an athiest.

PersainCAT says

It would be the same concept as if i were to live in the Islamic areas in Michigan and the school had a painting to Allah on the wall.

Geeze, I don't think so. If there was a painting to Allah on the wall, the Muslims would burn down the building. They would find that highly offensive.

I mean, if you don't know anything about Islam, you should at least know that. If you type in "Allah" in Google Image Search, Google replies, "Oh no, I'm not even going to go there.".

omgbacon says

You want to pray, go pray in private.

That's what Jesus said. Yes, he actually said that.

thomas.wong1986 says

Ask yourself why they quoted the bible in Space during the Apollo 8 Moon mission ?

The same reason we have "In God We Trust" printed on our money even though it's a blatant endorsement of monotheism in violation of the First Amendment. Our stupid ass, short-sighted politicians back in the cold war wanted to use religion to make the dumb-as-shit poor masses think that the United States empire was better than the Soviet Union empire. That way, we, not the Soviets, got to rape and pillage all the natural resources of weaker nations.

Religion: It's useful to the state.

PersainCAT says

Edit** Dan based on the context of what i seen you post it seems like you would think that something like this painting would GOOD to have up on places like school, and universities to teach the dangers of religion as an affront to logical thinking and science and use them as example of the the past stupidities of man. celebrating the culture of the past doesn't mean you are promoting that ideology.

I would like to see an impenetrable wall between church and state. And if that's not possible, then church has to be eliminated by the complete rejection of religion by the masses. No matter how you polish the turd, the story in this posting shows what religion drives people to: hatred, violence, and discord.

However, I do not think the state should get involved in the discussion of religion. Individual citizens should debate the issue with no interference from the state. In fact, the state should not enforce any cultural norms as doing so is a violation of the individual's liberty.

Luckily, religion will eventually disappear from the mainstream. Someday, any person who believes in a god will be viewed as cooky as a person who believes in astrology or card reading.

I know this because statistically as individuals become more educated and scientifically literate, they abandon mysticism. Sure, Isaac Newton believed in astrology and the occult, but he lived in a primitive, illiterate culture and that was the norm. If he were alive today, he would not.

With the Internet delivering practically all of mankind's knowledge to every corner of the Earth, eventually society will change so that politicians can no longer use religion to make war, suppress people, and commit acts of evil.

I do my best to hasten that day because there is a chance that if the world doesn't change quick enough, we'll blow ourselves up or render the planet inhospitable. The good news is that we're getting more enlightened. The bad news is that we're running out of time to get our shit together.

Dan8267 says

That way, we, not the Soviets, got to rape and pillage all the natural resources of weaker nations.

Tell that to a East German, Pole, Romanian, Bulgarian or a Czech.

PersainCAT says

my question is why is a painting on a wall that was done 40 years ago something so offensive if the concepts arent actively taught or people are forced to pray.

Image the painting is porn, but its concepts aren't actively taught and people are forced to have sex. Do you still have to ask why some people would find it offensive despite it's age?

PersainCAT says

How does that mural from a by gone time actively offend an atheist.

I don't find it offensive as an atheist. I find it offensive as an American. I have no problem with religious images and ceremonies in churches or even private industry. However, I object to the public school system being subverted by any religion as it violates my freedom of religion which includes freedom from religion. I object to a single cent of tax payer money being spent promoting any religion or for that matter promoting the end of religion.

Even when I was Catholic and went to a Catholic school, I objected to public schools endorsing religious beliefs. Now I'm an atheist, but as an American, I would still object to a public school endorsing atheism (and no, that doesn't include teaching real science) even though I agree with it. I don't get why this is a hard concept to appreciate.