patrick.net

Dan8267 says

There's a lesson to be learned here, and it's "the religious are not tolerant of others and often become violent when their power is threatened".

I agree the lesson is about religious tolerance.

Here is what the girl says: "I was really taken aback and a little bit hurt by it because it is entitled 'School Prayer,'" Ahlquist says. "It really does kind of make you feel like you don't belong if you don't believe in a heavenly father."

I see she has about as much common sense as the usual atheist of the extremist variety. She did it because she wanted to feel like she belongs. Right.

More like she saw a button and she had to press it.

Dan8267 says

marcus says

I wonder what percentage of the Christians in the community sent death threats or approved of them ?

Sent: definitely a small percentage of the community.
Approved: definitely a large percentage of the community based on the community's treatment towards the girl.

I think it would be easy to see her as a bit of a jerk, without at all condoning the death threats. In fact I see her as a bit of a jerk, and I don't particularly love the idea of having that prayer banner on the wall.

If I was going to fight it, in her shoes, I would have just brought the idea up at the student council, or some other group venue, and see if I could get some support for the idea of taking it down. IF there was a lot of strong objection, then I would back down. IT's not that big of a deal, and besides, it's a positive message.

Only the super religious type of atheist is going to make a big issue of this.

Let's say there's a group of 5 college students and they say let's smoke some weed and get high. But one of them doesn't want to, and objects
to the others doing it. What should he do ?

Should he say live and let live, even though he feels the others are hurting themselves, in a few ways, and just leave them to do their thing ?

Or should he report them to the police, for their own good, and get them arrested. Certainly the law would back him up on that if he did.

I say if he has them busted he's being a jerk, even if he strongly disapproves of that behavior, he doesn't have to impose his ego and his values on them to that degree.

I say a guy who does that is a jerk. Likewise I think the girl is a bit of a jerk.

Let the people have their banner with the positive message that's slightly religious in a general way. You can be their friend even if they are different than you. But because they are very much in the majority, yeah, you can either tolerate their behavior that you don't agree with, or you can take a stand that will turn them off to you.

Jesus says

Mathew 6:5-6
5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

The point: none of these Christians are Christians. If they were they'd do what Jesus tells them and we'd not be bothered by their nonsense.

Dan8267 says

Correction: Being a technologically and scientifically advanced nation means we are much, much more civilized.

Nope long long before that ...

Dan8267 says

if anything, religion has held back society. I stand by that statement, not the one you made.

You do realize the many European settlers who only had faith in GOD brought them to the new world. It wasnt technology, but faith and their religion that brought them here. Was that a move backward or holding society back. NO! And add to that the migration into the west.. all based on faith in God.

And not that long ago explores to the moon quoted the bible...I dont see anyone suing NASA or Apollo crew back in the 1960s for quoting the Bible or seperation of church and state. .

These great human achievements and faith in God is something to be proud of.. It make you proud being an American .. it makes you proud being a Christian.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/AFqnZaja7us

wthrfrk80 says

A lot of technological advancement occurs from warfare and the need to out-gun, out-innovate, and out-build the "enemy"

Read or watch James Burke Connections ( see the TV episodes on YouTube). Add in the Day the Universe Changed.
It wasnt all warfare related and many warfare innovation came from normal day to day ideas.

Kevin says

A 16 year old girl is getting death threats and you don't see the issue?
Personally, I don't really give a damn what myths stupid people want to believe, but they have no place in any taxpayer funded institution

She is thin skinned and WILL NOT make it in the real world if something like 4 dinky years of High School gets under her skin.

At this point she needs to focus on more important things that will enhance here life.. like education.

marcus says

I think it would be easy to see her as a bit of a jerk

So, she's a jerk for standing up for her rights? Is a Christian a jerk for insisting that he be allowed to go to church? Is an African American a jerk for insisting that his vote be counted in an election?

No person sticking up for his or her rights under the Constitution is a jerk, especially when doing so causes him or her to be ostracized. She's brave and should admired.

omgbacon says

The point: none of these Christians are Christians. If they were they'd do what Jesus tells them and we'd not be bothered by their nonsense.

As Forest Gump said, "Stupid is as stupid does.". Christians are what Christians do, not what Jesus allegedly told them to do. Jesus is irrelevant. All that matters is what people have done with the faith. Hell, Paul was more important than Jesus in the success of Christianity in brainwashing the masses.

thomas.wong1986 says

You do realize the many European settlers who only had faith in GOD brought them to the new world. It wasnt technology, but faith and their religion that brought them here.

Actually, it was a giant land grab. Two entire continents populated only by easily conquered, less technologically advanced people. God had nothing to do with the Europeans taking over the Americas. If there had been no religion in Europe at all, ever, the Europeans would still have conquered the Americas simply because they could.

Man does not need a god to justify his lust for land and riches. Sure, it helps. But absent a god, man will find other excuses to slaughter the vulnerable and take their land and natural resources.

Dan8267 says

So, she's a jerk for standing up for her rights?

And what right was that ?

The right to have something removed that virtually everyone didn't have a problem with, and that many liked ?

In my example above, the guy who has his friends busted for smoking weed (breaking the law) has the right to do that. Still, he's a jerk for doing it.

Keep in mind, when I say she's a bit of a jerk, I mean that she is to a vast majority of her classmates. And as I said earlier, she could have just brought it up to see if there are others who agree with her.

I don't care for extremism, although I know that on occasions the extremist adds something to a debate.

In my experience there are extremists such as yourself who have above an above average IQ. But I have never known of an extremist who I would consider wise, balanced or worthy of a lot of respect.

thomas.wong1986 says

These great human achievements and faith in God is something to be proud of.. It make you proud being an American .. it makes you proud being a Christian.

The Apollo 8 mission was a product of science, not Christianity. Reciting of Bible passages in space carries no more weight than Yuri Gagarin's quote "I see no god up here.".

marcus says

And what right was that ?

Freedom of religion. In order to have freedom of religion, you have to have freedom from religion. If you don't have the right to say no, than you are not free to choose.

Forcing a Christian prayer on a student should be as offensive as forcing an Islamic or Wiccan prayer on a student. Don't tell me those hypocrites would stand for that.

marcus says

The right to have something removed that virtually everyone didn't have a problem with, and that many liked ?

You mean something like this?

So, if the majority of red necks in a Georgia town wanted the Confederate Navy flag posted in a high school, but the lone black student felt threatened by it, you're attitude would be "fuck you, bro!"? Can't say I agree.

Dan8267 says

Forcing a Christian prayer on a student should be as offensive as forcing an Islamic or Wiccan prayer on a student.

How can that be if only one person has a problem with it ?

marcus says

How can that be if only one person has a problem with it ?

A group of 200 hard-core convicts escape from prison and establish a town in the foothills. One day a lost woman wanders into that down and is viciously gang raped by the 200 townsfolk. Only one person out of the 201 in the town has a problem with this. That's how it can be wrong even if only one person objects.

Dan8267 says

So, if the majority of red necks in a Georgia town wanted the Confederate Navy flag posted in a high school, but the lone black student felt threatened by it, you're attitude would be "fuck you, bro!"? Can't say I agree.

Perfect analogy.

Majority by most definitions means more than half. MY guess is that almost nobody had a problem with that banner. If there were more than one or two, then I would have a different opinion.

There's no point in my arguing this. Your extremism speaks for itself.

Besides, I have work to do.

Dan8267 says

That's how it can be wrong if only one person objects.

Another perfect analogy.

marcus says

Perfect analogy.

Majority by most definitions means more than half. MY guess is that almost nobody had a problem with that banner.

OK, so let's say that none of the white Georgian townsfolk have a problem with the Confederate Navy Jack and all of them like it. It's still wrong, and it's reasonable for the black student to object to it.

Dan8267 says

Your perception of me does not reflect reality. Nor could your mind comprehend my thoughts. It's best you simply accept that you are incapable of understanding me as I can't dumb down me enough for you to understand.

Choice Dan quote.

You're an extremist, and that's a fact.

marcus says

Another perfect analogy.

Counter-example, not analogy.

Dan8267 says

Man does not need a god to justify his lust for land and riches.

The Jamestown colonist came here without anything and were not for any quest (lust) for land and riches.

Dan8267 says

Counter-example, not analogy.

It would be a counter example, if the situations were analogous.

But then again, I'm not prepared to think at your level, so I'm probably wrong.

Dan8267 says

No, you dumb ass. Saying that someone is an extremist is an expression of opinion

I know an extremist when I see one. And you sir are an extremist.

thomas.wong1986 says

The Jamestown colonist came here without anything and were not for any quest (lust) for land and riches.

The Jamestown colonists didn't found America. If you are talking about the founding of a nation as being a great thing accomplished by Christianity, I would say that's not accurate. If you are talking about a few Christians fleeing other Christians to set up their own little power base, then I'd say that's not a great achievement.

Dan8267 says

The Apollo 8 mission was a product of science, not Christianity. Reciting of Bible passages in space carries no more weight than Yuri Gagarin's quote "I see no god up here.".

As quoted in To Rise from Earth (1996) by Wayne Lee; some websites quote him as saying "I looked and looked and looked but I didn't see God." on 14 April 1961, a couple days after his historic flight, but the authenticity of such statements have been disputed; Colonel Valentin Petrov stated in 2006 that the cosmonaut never said such words, and that the quote originated from Nikita Khrushchev's speech at the plenum of the Central Committee of the CPSU about the state's anti-religion campaign, saying "Gagarin flew into space, but didn't see any god there."

Gagarin himself was a member of the Russian Orthodox Church.

marcus says

I know an extremist when I see one. And you sir are an extremist.

Fine, call me an extremist. I'll call you a terrorist. Deal?

wthrfrk said it really well in another thread.

wthrfrk80 says

Liv4ever, you make a good case for atheism.

Dan, you make a good case for religion.

thomas.wong1986 says

Gagarin himself was a member of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Any the significance of this is? As I said, it bears no weight. Would you give up your belief in your god if Gagarin had said this? Why would I accept Christianity because someone paid by the military with our tax payer dollars read a passage from the Bible in space?

It's irrelevant.

Dan8267 says

If you are talking about a few Christians fleeing other Christians to set up their own little power base, then I'd say that's not a great achievement.

Oh well .. another atheist. Your not getting any sympathy around here.

marcus says

wthrfrk said it really well in another thread.

wthrfrk80 says

Liv4ever, you make a good case for atheism.

Dan, you make a good case for religion.

Hey, if you want to be religious, feel free to worship me. At least, I'm real. Donations are tax-free, right?

thomas.wong1986 says

Oh well .. another atheist. Your not getting any sympathy around here.

I don't ask for sympathy. I ask for reason.

Dan8267 says

Fine, call me an extremist.

The ironic part is that your religiosity and wanting to cram your religion down other peoples throats is what you hate in others. Hmmmm...

Dan8267 says

OK, so let's say that none of the white Georgian townsfolk have a problem with the Confederate Navy Jack and all of them like it. It's still wrong, and it's reasonable for the black student to object to it.

Black College Student Wins Right To Hang Confederate Flag In Dorm Room!

http://www.youtube.com/embed/RvSg0buZiTk

African American college student Byron Thomas has been thrown in to the national spotlight behind his support of the Confederate flag. The 19 year old student at the University of South Carolina Beaufort proudly mounted the banner in his dorm room window because, in his words, “When I look at this flag, I don’t see racism. I see respect, Southern pride… This flag was seen as a communication symbol” during the Civil War. And Byron Thomas is aware of the irony of it all admitting, “I know it’s kind of weird because I’m black

thomas.wong1986 says

Black College Student Wins Right To Hang Confederate Flag In Dorm Room!

Yes, in his dorm. His home. Proves my point.

You can do what you want in your own home, but you can't force others to do what you want.

The girl in this article didn't say people couldn't pray in their homes. She said the Christian prayer shouldn't be public school cannon. And neither is the Confederate Navy Jack in your example. As such, your counter-example doesn't contradict my example.

marcus says

The ironic part is that your religiosity and wanting to cram your religion down other peoples throats is what you hate in others. Hmmmm...

If you cannot distinguish between passionately arguing for or against a position with making death threats to your opposition, then you are an idiot.

What the....

Well I for one am very, very skeptical of things like the inquisition. Religious wars etc. Such things are used to titillate religion "zombies".

I can see it being used by the leaders of a country to "incite" their "religous" population into doing something. The leaders of countries who are usually swindlers of sorts. Way to fast to buy into religious bullshit. They have to know whats real and whats not. Are after property, booty, land something of value.

Books are filled with bullshit of the past. Just look at the bullshit going on today. Leaders of nations are portrayed in some at the very least "righteous cause" That would appeal to either the Humane morals" or "Religious morals" of a person.

I believe that "morals" or real indignation really appears in places where the population as a whole decides to take a cause on with little leadership and overthrow the outrages perpatrated against them. For everyday people to do that takes a lot.

When it swings on a common axis. Like centeralized leadership. Look out there is going to be all kinds of manipulation on many different levels of the population. Another words look carefully at how they are trying to incite different parts of their populations.

That might be what "some" are saying here because they are victims of such incitements. In a sly way by their governments. Then on a very different level by religion itself. Some look at it as simply "education" of people that are programmed to be religious or caught up in such. Even that is done in such a way as to incite religious at the present time. It in of itself may do the same thing.

It would take something like the Vatican coming out and saying look this is what we did. These are the reasons we did it. This is who we did it with and why.

Division is interesting. It alienates. Then again it binds people together in commonality on either side of the division. It brings on a hurried social structure around that comminality. It forms relationships with the people in the division. An entire structure dedicated to the opposition of the other side of the division. It sets up leadership (which you would be very, very suprised to find the dividers usually setting up) So they can "steer" the division wherever they want it to "go". Very few exceptions in that. There can be a binding or seperating of those divisions depending on what purpose they have. In this present case the centrifuge coming apart. Advanced knowledge. Not imparted. Well planned out. Then brought forward.

Dan8267 says

Man does not need a god to justify his lust for land and riches. Sure, it helps. But absent a god, man will find other excuses to slaughter the vulnerable and take their land and natural resources.

So you admit the possibility of "evil" without religion? And the possibility that religion might not be inherently evil, but is often twisted to justify inherent desires for land, resources, money, and power?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/dXYl5NrHPb4