patrick.net

Nomograph says

You only feel marginalized because you haven't been able to achieve success and are looking for someone to blame other than yourself. It's YOUR fault that you didn't go to college. Now you pound out dents for a living and you're looking for somewhere to place the blame. Try a mirror.

LOL! as the youtube video shows, you have people (white and hispanic) who have achieved success, but were denied their annual promotion because it would cause an "imbalance in racial diversity".

Not exactly the idea to encourage any success unless its dictated by the court. How would that motivate anyone, might as well go pound out dents ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IDoqE5ioYHA

There is only one solution to the historic discrimination of the white man by the United States government. We need to intern the Coloreds in separate but equal camps with a policy of apartness. It's what is best for them.

Scagnetti says

Make me a believer! Show me some data. Prove it.

I am speaking from experience and what seems obvious to me.

Question: Why should I have to prove it ?

Why would your default belief NOT be that those differences are due to socioeconomic reasons rather than race? And why would you not require proof to believe otherwise ?

These are good questions if you can comprehend them.

Jeremy says

Straight white males between the ages of 18 and 54. As far as I can tell, this is the only group of Americans that can not form a group to promote themselves or their own advancement within American society. Am I wrong?

Well, isn't Congress, the CEO of nearly every corporation, every university, all the military services, major leadership positions in every private sector category, centuries of clubs like Lions, Elks etc, country clubs, golf clubs, car clubs, motorcycle clubs,movies, TV primarily representing white straight males enough?

Are you just saying you want to be able to have exclusively race based clubs?

Come join me for a round at the golf club some time and I'll show you how marginalized we are. We're doing pretty stupid good, man. I agree with the Louis C.K. ideas and that's been consistent with my thoughts on the marginalization of white men for a long time.

It's probably a sign of advancement that this gets discussed as hard as this discussion is to understand. What little I understand about evolution says diversity benefits humans so it's helpful to promote diversity. Or if you believe in creation, then you must see that God promotes diversity.

FunTime says

Well, isn't Congress, the CEO of nearly every corporation, every university, all the military services, major leadership positions in every private sector category, centuries of clubs like Lions, Elks etc, country clubs, golf clubs, car clubs, motorcycle clubs,movies, TV primarily representing white straight males enough?

Not this argument again, I'm the only White guy I know.

Nomo, I restore cars as a hobby...though working with ones hands is nothing to be ashamed of, which you insinuate.

Again, this thread is not about me, my success, my college degrees, or my critical skills in thinking. I don't need to justify myself to you or anyone else. You don't know me, as such you cannot accurately jusge me. Otherwise you are PREJUDICED (as well as being a racist).

For all you know I could be wealthy, or not. I could be a minority, or not. I could be married to a person of color, or not. I could have advanced college degrees, or not. I could hold lifetime teaching credentials in multiple states, or not. I could own multiple office buildings, or not. I could be CEO of multiple corperations, or not. I could have improved the lives of countless people, or not.

I also recognize the fact that whites are marginalized - you don't. I recognize there is a divisive double standard in existance - you don't. I recognize that a sound currency is necessary for a sound economy - you don't. I recognize inflation steals from the poor - you don't. I recognize that throwing money at every problem in life is not the solution - you don't. I recognize that the more government grows, the more liberty and freedom decline - you don't. I recognize that the rule of law is superior to the whims of man - you don't. I recognize the futility of central planning - you don't. I recognize the sanctity of life - you don't. I recognize that cooperation is superior to force - you don't. I recognize that price fixing distorts the market - you don't. I recognize the destruction of unintended consequences - you don't. I recognize the fact that utiopia doesn't exist - you don't. I recognize my range of critical thinking skills is vastly superior to yours - which is apparently too hard for you to comprehend.

Score as of today: Abe-117 Nomo- 0

FunTime - God doesn't PROMOTE diversity, she CREATED diversity. Big difference.

Honest Abe says

I also recognize the fact that whites are marginalized - you don't.

By "recognize" you mean "have paranoid delusions about".

marginalized: past participle, past tense of mar·gin·al·ize
Verb:
Treat (a person, group, or concept) as insignificant or peripheral: "they marginalize those who disagree"; "marginalized groups".

Man, white people are just so insignificant and peripheral. They have no say in government, business, education, religion, or any other aspect of people's lives. It's so sad what they've done to white people.

Kevin, "Crackers" are not allowed to form groups to promote their own advancement (which was the main point of the original post).

Its not that whitie isn't involved with government, business, education, religion. It's just not acceptable to liberals or other racist groups for whites to form groups LIKE THEY HAVE, to "promote or advance" their own agenda.

You know, NAACP, CORE, Anti-Defamation League, National Black Caucasus, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms. Heck, you even have a racist president calling on black churches for additional black votes. Imagine the firestorm of protest and outrage if Mitt Rommney called on "White churches to encourage white votes".

You deny it (as usual) but having groups like National Association for the Advancement of White People, National White Caucasians, WDPT (whites demanding preferential treatment) would cause riots in America. All the major cities would be in flames. The battle cry would be "Burn Baby Burn"...have you ever heard that before????

Thanks for posting the definition - you validated the premise of the original post.

Hope you overcome your hate and distorted thinking soon. All the best, Abe

Kevin says

Man, white people are just so insignificant and peripheral. They have no say in government, business, education, religion, or any other aspect of people's lives. It's so sad what they've done to white people.

Kevin that's the point, and where you Liberals fall flat on your asses. That is the whole fucking point of democracy and especially the United states. Nobody has any say in business, religion or any aspect of people's lives. It's the liberals that want to crawl up everyone's butt and drive the direction of everything they do.

Honest Abe says

FunTime - God doesn't PROMOTE diversity, she CREATED diversity. Big difference.

So God lacked intent?

Honest Abe says

Kevin, "Crackers" are not allowed to form groups to promote their own advancement (which was the main point of the original post).
Its not that whitie isn't involved with government, business, education, religion. It's just not acceptable to liberals or other racist groups for whites to form groups LIKE THEY HAVE, to "promote or advance" their own agenda.

I really think you've got this backwards. Whitie isn't "involved" in the the groups and organizations you listed. Whitie "formed" them. So then people of other ethnic backgrounds came along and said, "Hey, we want groups too! In fact, we really need them because all of the groups that exist explicitly exclude us." So to say whites/caucasians can't form groups to promote their advancement, or further domination in this case, seems to remember only a couple decades back.

And besides that, are there really groups being struck down? I'm aware of groups of all white men that get formed all the time. Is the point that they're not officially defined as being for white's? Some of the groups that have been formed for other kinds of people are actually not exclusive. Many groups formed for women, appreciate the attendance and membership of men, for example.

Scagnetti says

It's not possible....it has been scientifically proven time and again. The American racial experiment has failed.

So far, right? Are you really giving up? It took us a long time to get here. Do you think we'll figure it out in a few decades? The world is not the way we want it, so let's keep trying to change it.

Scagnetti says

Still, there is a large racial gap. It cannot be overcome by raising a child's living conditions. This experiment has failed.

I would find it helpful if you'd post the source study for your charts. Also, what do you think about the discussions/debate regarding the bias of tests?

marcus says

These are good questions if you can comprehend them.

Here is a general response to your many comments...

Judging from your previous posts, you are obviously an apologist, if not a blatant supporter, of affirmative action. Affirmative action is racist, sexist, and anti-merit. Your justification for it is immaterial to this fact. Even though this policy is all of those things, I never called you racist, sexist, anti-white, or anti-merit, although you continue to label and vilify me. Once again, make your argument, not personal attacks.

You assert the importance of having a diverse society and that we are making "great strides". I pointed out to you that this diverse society you are creating is not merit based, but based on state sponsored prejudice. I will repeat, your justification for it is immaterial to this fact.

I proved it by posting information showing that whites and asians on average had much higher SAT scores. The most competent and qualified college applicants were being rejected in favor of black and hispanic applicants with lower test scores! I had previously posted information about the anti-white and anti-asian admission standards at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. After the posting of the SAT scores showing a difference between the races, you had an EMOTIONAL MELTDOWN!

Next, you took segments of my posts out of context, and argued that "middle-class life" makes a large difference in scoring. I had already acknowledged this as a FACTOR. I am the one who posted the information that showed this remember? Here is the whole of my post that you cut, took out of context, and went on a childlike rant about...

Scagnetti says

Marcus is right in one way. For each race, SAT scores go up the further along a person is on the income ladder. Still, there is a large racial gap. It cannot be overcome by raising a child's living conditions. This experiment has failed.

You then claim to be ignorant of the "experiment" I referred too. After your "cooling off" period, you realized I was talking about whether people are a product of their environment, genetics, or both. After that, you take the contemporary and politically correct view of; all people are exactly the same and only environmental/social factors matter. You pre-emptively state that anyone who has a different view is a racist.

In regards to different groups having different SAT scores you say....

marcus says

But this type of difference can be overcome in just a few generations, or less and is not some sort of deep genetic difference as many racists seem to feel.

I asked you to prove this with some data and you COULDN'T OR WOULDN'T. You have provided no proof for your claim! Maybe it's because, IT HAS NEVER BEEN OVERCOME!

Think about this...

Did you know that the VAST majority of world class sprinters are from African descent? Why is that? Are you going to argue that whites can overcome this deficiency within a few generations with proper training, equal opportunity, and a different culture? Or do you think blacks' dominance in sprinting is just raw innate talent?

The NFL is mostly black and so is the NBA and no one utters a word. Blacks' dominance in these sports is realized. The second you post some SAT scores that show Whites and Asians come out on top, LOOK OUT, Marcus and the bunch that think like him will demonize you. Does anyone see a double standard here? That its ok to be pro-black, pro-hispanic, pro-anything, EXCEPT pro-white?

"There are very few moments in a mans existence when he experiences so much hostility, or meets with so little benevolence, as when he challenges fashionable perceptions of race."

Scagnetti says

No one even bats an eye at this stuff anymore. The NFL is mostly black and so is the NBA and no one utters a word. Their dominance in these sports is accepted. The second you post some SAT scores that show Whites and Asians come out on top, LOOK OUT, Marcus and the bunch that think like him will demonize you. Does anyone see a double standard here?

I don't think you've illustrated a double standard. Your writing suggests that for every occupation in the world, there is equal consideration of every person. Then the best people end up in that position, or the people with the most potential for that position. That's not how it works.

FunTime says

Scagnetti says

No one even bats an eye at this stuff anymore. The NFL is mostly black and so is the NBA and no one utters a word. Their dominance in these sports is accepted. The second you post some SAT scores that show Whites and Asians come out on top, LOOK OUT, Marcus and the bunch that think like him will demonize you. Does anyone see a double standard here?

I don't think you've illustrated a double standard. Your writing suggests that for every occupation in the world, there is equal consideration of every person. Then the best people end up in that position, or the people with the most potential for that position. That's not how it works.

Really? I thought it was pretty apparent. No one is ostracized for saying that blacks are dominant in lots of athletics. Its true. On the other hand, when you prove whites and asians are dominant scholastically and intellectually, you are called a racist and vilified. See the above vitriol. You don't see the double standard there? That its ok to be pro-black, pro-hispanic, pro-anything, EXCEPT pro-white? Really?

Scagnetti, I clearly see the double standard you described, don't know why FT can't. BTW, I've heard that the best way to get accepted into college is to identify yourself as "American Indian". That puts you ahead of Blacks, Hispanics or any other 'Government favored' group.

Hahaha, the double standard so loved and charished by liberals is being defeated and trumped by a new triple standard, hahaha. Libs beaten at their own game - SWEET !!!

FunTime says

Your writing suggests that for every occupation in the world, there is equal consideration of every person. Then the best people end up in that position, or the people with the most potential for that position. That's not how it works.

Yes, I know that's not how it works! That's the problem, highly competent and qualified whites are being passed over for lesser competent and lesser qualified minorities!

Now you're just starting to sound like a silly fool.

Reconcile this statement with the study I posted above that proved how competent individuals were passed over because of the internalized biases of those judging them in favor of more visually acceptable but less competent individuals. I double dog dare you to acknowledge and accept the findings of that study, WITHOUT twisting it's meaning to support your position, which is exactly the opposite.

So the point of your posts is basically "the poor, poor white men", have I got that right? So downtrodden are we, so repressed and maligned and pushed from any power and success that's possibly ours, by those dastardly, undeserving and yet somehow wildly successful minorities. Is that the essence of your thought process here?

Is life still horrible for white men today? The mexican lady who I pay to clean my toilet didn't seem interested in having the discussion.

This is a call to all my White brothers and sisters! It's time to break the chains of oppression and make our way to the land of freedom! I have a dream that one day, all of my persecuted White brothers and sisters will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old spiritual;

Free at last! Free at last!

Thank GOD Almighty, we are free at last!

You go, girl.

Scagnetti says

After the posting of the SAT scores showing a difference between the races, you had an EMOTIONAL MELTDOWN!

If calmly observing that you are a racist idiot is what you call an emotional meltdown then okay.

I never said this:

Scagnetti says

After that, you take the contemporary and politically correct view of; all people are exactly the same and only environmental/social factors matter.

No, but I did say that I think average children's test score differences by race are about socioeconomic factors, rather than race. But hey, I'm just a teacher, what would I know.

I meant it when I said I don't know what experiment you were referring to.I would try to help you get over the obvious emotions you have about these issues, if I thought I could. But that's obviously a lost cause.

This was my best attempt:

marcus says

Why would your default belief NOT be that those differences are due to socioeconomic reasons rather than race? And why would you not require proof to believe otherwise ?

And by the way, before our brief exchange, I did say this.

marcus says

Don't we all at least partially understand the complexity of this? And probably many of us, myself included, have some ambivalence about it when it comes to for example med school or law school admissions.

We really are tribal animals, as said in one of the other threads. Maybe that's why we obsess over skin pigmentation? It's a psychological "us vs. them"?

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

Isn't this what the klan and the militia movement and, lately, the teabaggers were all about?

A friend of mine from Cleveland (former SAP developer, technical manager, runs in executive social circles) told me the Feds are dusting off some of the McCarthy era anti Communist laws to deal with the Occupy movement. People high up in Washington seem to agree that a change in the political climate is coming and have begun preparing for it. Serious, deeply involved Occupiers are being "visited" and told we can't take away their First Amendment rights but if they keep pushing, any hope of them having a normal life or career will end.

So, if you really think about it, the Tea Party folks won. Their efforts resulted in Republicans retaking the House and (probably) the Senate and White House in November. The Occupiers got themselves a TON of bad press, criminal records in a few cases and others will end up branded for the rest of their lives.

It almost feels as though the sixties never ended but that's about to change.

Kevin says

Is life still horrible for white men today? The mexican lady who I pay to clean my toilet didn't seem interested in having the discussion.

It depends upon what part of the country you live in. In the south, white guys still run the show...very much so, in fact. Those also happen to be the fastest growing states in the Union. Texas picked up four Electoral votes from the collective losses of Ohio and Pennsylvania in this past census. For all the crying about a rigged census that we heard from conservatives, it looks to me as though things turned out just as we thought they would.

FunTime says

Scagnetti says

It's not possible....it has been scientifically proven time and again. The American racial experiment has failed.

So far, right? Are you really giving up? It took us a long time to get here. Do you think we'll figure it out in a few decades? The world is not the way we want it, so let's keep trying to change it.

The world is never how the left wants it because they're emotionally weak, unfocused and foolish. That's precisely the reason most of them end up in academia. They have to be protected...but even that is starting to change.

wthrfrk80 says

I had a good friend in college that was Asian. He found it comical when he would walk into an advanced math course on the first day: many would glare at him apparently thinking, "aw crap, there goes the curve!"

He told me there's good reason for that stereotype, though. He said it's probably NOT true that Asians (as a whole) are inherently better at math than the rest. It's that ONLY the smart Asians make it into the U.S. to study math. He put it bluntly, "all the dumb Asians are still back in Asia."

So if you only sample the Asians at U.S. universities, you probably WILL find that they are better at math than the average American. It's not just a stereotype!

They can do math and science but put them behind the wheel of a car and it's scary.

May I never see another white Toyota minivan with a dent in the back of it, ever again.

Personally, I am doing just fine. I am fairly successful depending on how you measure success. I've made between $130k & $160k a year the last 7 years. In the place I work, there is not disparity between my salary and that of the women, blacks, whites, browns, yellows, reds, straights, gays. My original post said "as far as I can tell" and also concluded with the question "am I wrong?" Now of course some of you agree with me, and some of you vehemently disagree. Fair enough. Let me just say, in the microcosm of my own universe, there are subgroups within my agency. "blacks for blacks" , "women for women", "hispanics for hispanics" etc. Why? Why are they allowed to exist at all? They are not marginalized within the workplace AT ALL. We are all treated the same UNLESS I tried to start a pro white group, in which case I would be immediately fired. How are their groups serving the betterment of society or the workplace? And if you have a good argument as to why they serve a positive purpose, then why would my pro white group not serve the same positive purpose???

Oh, and btw, Nomo and Kevin. I am not a victim. I DO feel many of my fellow middle aged straight white males are victimized, however. Beyond that, I just enjoy the discussion. Thanks for keeping it *cough* civil.

kentm says

Reconcile this statement with the study I posted above that proved how competent individuals were passed over because of the internalized biases of those judging them in favor of more visually acceptable but less competent individuals. I double dog dare you to acknowledge and accept the findings of that study, WITHOUT twisting it's meaning to support your position, which is exactly the opposite.

I don't refute your study. I disagree with the viewpoint that STATE SPONSORED ANTI-WHITE PREJUDICE (affirmative action) is a good thing!

Honest Abe says

Kevin, "Crackers" are not allowed to form groups to promote their own advancement (which was the main point of the original post).

Its not that whitie isn't involved with government, business, education, religion. It's just not acceptable to liberals or other racist groups for whites to form groups LIKE THEY HAVE, to "promote or advance" their own agenda.

I agree with you Abe....Lets get this thread back on topic and consider this as a factor in Whites not being able to form racially solid groups....

In Chandler Arizona in 2007, the police described a "Hispanic" male that was a suspect in a crime. The Vice President for the network, KMYL radio, demanded this was "racial profiling" and said the police should have said the man was "dark-skinned" (Nicole Beyer, "Calling Rapist a Hispanic Irks Radio Station," East Valley Tribune, Nov. 10,2007)

In Hillsborough Florida, the local high school editor was going to publish an article on the racial gap in standardized test scores. William Orr, the principal, ordered the article be removed from the paper because even though the article was factually correct, he wouldn't let students self esteem be hurt (Letitia Stein, "School Newspaper Censored" St. Petersburg Times, Oct 24, 2006).

On January 15, 2005, There was a march to celebrate the Martin Luther King holiday. A white police officer was helping to patrol the route of the parade. A snack van was sent out for the hungry officers and he chose a banana to eat. To his amazement, members of the march insisted he was comparing them to apes! The mayor of the city wrote an apology letter! (Sorry About the Snacks," Columbus Ledger-Enquirer (GA) Jan. 28, 2005)

Whites have been conditioned to police their speech and actions because of innumerous incidents like these portrayed in the media, pop culture, and experienced in their own personal lives. Whites know minorities, but blacks in particular, will take offense to almost anything! Whites have been conditioned to be afraid of being called a racist, or prejudiced. They know that they could lose jobs, business contacts, social acceptance, etc. if they are labeled as a racist.

Experiments at the Tufts University and Harvard Business School have proven that White children as young as 10 have this "fear" of appearing racist. They were paired with another subject. One of the subjects had 1 photo of a specific person on it. The other subject had 30 photos of different people. The subject had to figure out what photo the other was holding only by asking yes or no questions. Obviously, asking questions about the race of the individual would significantly narrow down the choices, but the white subject would only do so if his partner was white. If his partner was black, only 10% would ask questions about race. They were afraid to admit they even noticed race! Co-author of the study, Kristin Pauker, said "This result is fascinating because it shows that children as young as 10 feel the need to try to avoid appearing prejudiced, even if doing so leads them to perform poorly on a basic cognitive test".

Although, there is no consequences if minorities don't follow this "racial etiquette".

A black commissioner in Orlando Florida angered the police when she stated that a "white boy" police officer pulled her over. When an apology was demanded she said, "That is how I talk and I don't plan to change" (Mark Schlueb, "Orlando Police Seek Apology for City Commissionars Remarks," Orlando Sentinal, June 20, 2006)

Sharp James, the Mayor of Newark New Jersey was seeking relection in 2002. He described his lighter skinned black opponent as the "Faggot White Boy". Apparently this was socially acceptable because he was elected back into office by the majority-black electorate (Deroy Murdock, "Dems Need to Houseclean," National Review Online, Jan. 6, 2003).

The aforementioned, "racial etiquette" has been instilled in whites since they were children. They also have been indoctrinated with anti-white sentiment and "white guilt" from day one. Whereas non-whites are taught to "embrace" their racial, cultural, and ethnic identities. This is a big factor in forming homogeneous groups.

It's the fucking Irish's fault. They need to pack up their whiskey stained asses and get the fuck out of America.

Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

It's the fucking Irish's fault.

Let's send all of the inferior ungrateful Europeans who aren't white anglo saxon protestants, back to where they belong.

Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

It's the fucking Irish's fault. They need to pack up their whiskey stained asses and get the fuck out of America.

But we don't want the Irish!

Aw, hell...everybody.

See, Jeremy works in a fine establishment which is color blind. He works with all races, nationalities, colors and creeds. No one gets "special treatment" - apparently it works, and everyone gets along just fine.

The key is to give no one preferential treatment. People are allowed to rise to the limit of their abliity

Free at last, free at last, thank god almighty, I'm free at last.

I had a dream where we all sat the same table of social services, and argued over who was the most minority oppressed.

Honest Abe says

See, Jeremy works in a fine establishment which is color blind. He works with all races, nationalities, colors and creeds. No one gets "special treatment" - apparently it works, and everyone gets along just fine.

And that's so rare in the US. If it weren't for those crazy liberals you could probably see this almost anywhere, at least in urban areas where the populations are diverse.

Just kidding. We have that all over the place. Abe obviously lives in some hyper monochrome racist city where people don't even know what actually already happens in the big city.

And Abe doesn't know that people who are truly "color blind" or close to it, don't say so over and over. In fact, that's something that only someone with some serious race issues would say. Abe, in some future life, you will be color blind, when you are very rarely talking or thinking about race.

"The State is the great fiction where everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else".