patrick.net

Honest Abe says

FunTime - God doesn't PROMOTE diversity, she CREATED diversity. Big difference.

So God lacked intent?

Honest Abe says

Kevin, "Crackers" are not allowed to form groups to promote their own advancement (which was the main point of the original post).
Its not that whitie isn't involved with government, business, education, religion. It's just not acceptable to liberals or other racist groups for whites to form groups LIKE THEY HAVE, to "promote or advance" their own agenda.

I really think you've got this backwards. Whitie isn't "involved" in the the groups and organizations you listed. Whitie "formed" them. So then people of other ethnic backgrounds came along and said, "Hey, we want groups too! In fact, we really need them because all of the groups that exist explicitly exclude us." So to say whites/caucasians can't form groups to promote their advancement, or further domination in this case, seems to remember only a couple decades back.

And besides that, are there really groups being struck down? I'm aware of groups of all white men that get formed all the time. Is the point that they're not officially defined as being for white's? Some of the groups that have been formed for other kinds of people are actually not exclusive. Many groups formed for women, appreciate the attendance and membership of men, for example.

Scagnetti says

It's not possible....it has been scientifically proven time and again. The American racial experiment has failed.

So far, right? Are you really giving up? It took us a long time to get here. Do you think we'll figure it out in a few decades? The world is not the way we want it, so let's keep trying to change it.

Scagnetti says

Still, there is a large racial gap. It cannot be overcome by raising a child's living conditions. This experiment has failed.

I would find it helpful if you'd post the source study for your charts. Also, what do you think about the discussions/debate regarding the bias of tests?

marcus says

These are good questions if you can comprehend them.

Here is a general response to your many comments...

Judging from your previous posts, you are obviously an apologist, if not a blatant supporter, of affirmative action. Affirmative action is racist, sexist, and anti-merit. Your justification for it is immaterial to this fact. Even though this policy is all of those things, I never called you racist, sexist, anti-white, or anti-merit, although you continue to label and vilify me. Once again, make your argument, not personal attacks.

You assert the importance of having a diverse society and that we are making "great strides". I pointed out to you that this diverse society you are creating is not merit based, but based on state sponsored prejudice. I will repeat, your justification for it is immaterial to this fact.

I proved it by posting information showing that whites and asians on average had much higher SAT scores. The most competent and qualified college applicants were being rejected in favor of black and hispanic applicants with lower test scores! I had previously posted information about the anti-white and anti-asian admission standards at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. After the posting of the SAT scores showing a difference between the races, you had an EMOTIONAL MELTDOWN!

Next, you took segments of my posts out of context, and argued that "middle-class life" makes a large difference in scoring. I had already acknowledged this as a FACTOR. I am the one who posted the information that showed this remember? Here is the whole of my post that you cut, took out of context, and went on a childlike rant about...

Scagnetti says

Marcus is right in one way. For each race, SAT scores go up the further along a person is on the income ladder. Still, there is a large racial gap. It cannot be overcome by raising a child's living conditions. This experiment has failed.

You then claim to be ignorant of the "experiment" I referred too. After your "cooling off" period, you realized I was talking about whether people are a product of their environment, genetics, or both. After that, you take the contemporary and politically correct view of; all people are exactly the same and only environmental/social factors matter. You pre-emptively state that anyone who has a different view is a racist.

In regards to different groups having different SAT scores you say....

marcus says

But this type of difference can be overcome in just a few generations, or less and is not some sort of deep genetic difference as many racists seem to feel.

I asked you to prove this with some data and you COULDN'T OR WOULDN'T. You have provided no proof for your claim! Maybe it's because, IT HAS NEVER BEEN OVERCOME!

Think about this...

Did you know that the VAST majority of world class sprinters are from African descent? Why is that? Are you going to argue that whites can overcome this deficiency within a few generations with proper training, equal opportunity, and a different culture? Or do you think blacks' dominance in sprinting is just raw innate talent?

The NFL is mostly black and so is the NBA and no one utters a word. Blacks' dominance in these sports is realized. The second you post some SAT scores that show Whites and Asians come out on top, LOOK OUT, Marcus and the bunch that think like him will demonize you. Does anyone see a double standard here? That its ok to be pro-black, pro-hispanic, pro-anything, EXCEPT pro-white?

"There are very few moments in a mans existence when he experiences so much hostility, or meets with so little benevolence, as when he challenges fashionable perceptions of race."

Scagnetti says

No one even bats an eye at this stuff anymore. The NFL is mostly black and so is the NBA and no one utters a word. Their dominance in these sports is accepted. The second you post some SAT scores that show Whites and Asians come out on top, LOOK OUT, Marcus and the bunch that think like him will demonize you. Does anyone see a double standard here?

I don't think you've illustrated a double standard. Your writing suggests that for every occupation in the world, there is equal consideration of every person. Then the best people end up in that position, or the people with the most potential for that position. That's not how it works.

FunTime says

Scagnetti says

No one even bats an eye at this stuff anymore. The NFL is mostly black and so is the NBA and no one utters a word. Their dominance in these sports is accepted. The second you post some SAT scores that show Whites and Asians come out on top, LOOK OUT, Marcus and the bunch that think like him will demonize you. Does anyone see a double standard here?

I don't think you've illustrated a double standard. Your writing suggests that for every occupation in the world, there is equal consideration of every person. Then the best people end up in that position, or the people with the most potential for that position. That's not how it works.

Really? I thought it was pretty apparent. No one is ostracized for saying that blacks are dominant in lots of athletics. Its true. On the other hand, when you prove whites and asians are dominant scholastically and intellectually, you are called a racist and vilified. See the above vitriol. You don't see the double standard there? That its ok to be pro-black, pro-hispanic, pro-anything, EXCEPT pro-white? Really?

Scagnetti, I clearly see the double standard you described, don't know why FT can't. BTW, I've heard that the best way to get accepted into college is to identify yourself as "American Indian". That puts you ahead of Blacks, Hispanics or any other 'Government favored' group.

Hahaha, the double standard so loved and charished by liberals is being defeated and trumped by a new triple standard, hahaha. Libs beaten at their own game - SWEET !!!

FunTime says

Your writing suggests that for every occupation in the world, there is equal consideration of every person. Then the best people end up in that position, or the people with the most potential for that position. That's not how it works.

Yes, I know that's not how it works! That's the problem, highly competent and qualified whites are being passed over for lesser competent and lesser qualified minorities!

Now you're just starting to sound like a silly fool.

Reconcile this statement with the study I posted above that proved how competent individuals were passed over because of the internalized biases of those judging them in favor of more visually acceptable but less competent individuals. I double dog dare you to acknowledge and accept the findings of that study, WITHOUT twisting it's meaning to support your position, which is exactly the opposite.

So the point of your posts is basically "the poor, poor white men", have I got that right? So downtrodden are we, so repressed and maligned and pushed from any power and success that's possibly ours, by those dastardly, undeserving and yet somehow wildly successful minorities. Is that the essence of your thought process here?

Is life still horrible for white men today? The mexican lady who I pay to clean my toilet didn't seem interested in having the discussion.

This is a call to all my White brothers and sisters! It's time to break the chains of oppression and make our way to the land of freedom! I have a dream that one day, all of my persecuted White brothers and sisters will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old spiritual;

Free at last! Free at last!

Thank GOD Almighty, we are free at last!

You go, girl.

Scagnetti says

After the posting of the SAT scores showing a difference between the races, you had an EMOTIONAL MELTDOWN!

If calmly observing that you are a racist idiot is what you call an emotional meltdown then okay.

I never said this:

Scagnetti says

After that, you take the contemporary and politically correct view of; all people are exactly the same and only environmental/social factors matter.

No, but I did say that I think average children's test score differences by race are about socioeconomic factors, rather than race. But hey, I'm just a teacher, what would I know.

I meant it when I said I don't know what experiment you were referring to.I would try to help you get over the obvious emotions you have about these issues, if I thought I could. But that's obviously a lost cause.

This was my best attempt:

marcus says

Why would your default belief NOT be that those differences are due to socioeconomic reasons rather than race? And why would you not require proof to believe otherwise ?

And by the way, before our brief exchange, I did say this.

marcus says

Don't we all at least partially understand the complexity of this? And probably many of us, myself included, have some ambivalence about it when it comes to for example med school or law school admissions.

We really are tribal animals, as said in one of the other threads. Maybe that's why we obsess over skin pigmentation? It's a psychological "us vs. them"?

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

Isn't this what the klan and the militia movement and, lately, the teabaggers were all about?

A friend of mine from Cleveland (former SAP developer, technical manager, runs in executive social circles) told me the Feds are dusting off some of the McCarthy era anti Communist laws to deal with the Occupy movement. People high up in Washington seem to agree that a change in the political climate is coming and have begun preparing for it. Serious, deeply involved Occupiers are being "visited" and told we can't take away their First Amendment rights but if they keep pushing, any hope of them having a normal life or career will end.

So, if you really think about it, the Tea Party folks won. Their efforts resulted in Republicans retaking the House and (probably) the Senate and White House in November. The Occupiers got themselves a TON of bad press, criminal records in a few cases and others will end up branded for the rest of their lives.

It almost feels as though the sixties never ended but that's about to change.

Kevin says

Is life still horrible for white men today? The mexican lady who I pay to clean my toilet didn't seem interested in having the discussion.

It depends upon what part of the country you live in. In the south, white guys still run the show...very much so, in fact. Those also happen to be the fastest growing states in the Union. Texas picked up four Electoral votes from the collective losses of Ohio and Pennsylvania in this past census. For all the crying about a rigged census that we heard from conservatives, it looks to me as though things turned out just as we thought they would.

FunTime says

Scagnetti says

It's not possible....it has been scientifically proven time and again. The American racial experiment has failed.

So far, right? Are you really giving up? It took us a long time to get here. Do you think we'll figure it out in a few decades? The world is not the way we want it, so let's keep trying to change it.

The world is never how the left wants it because they're emotionally weak, unfocused and foolish. That's precisely the reason most of them end up in academia. They have to be protected...but even that is starting to change.

wthrfrk80 says

I had a good friend in college that was Asian. He found it comical when he would walk into an advanced math course on the first day: many would glare at him apparently thinking, "aw crap, there goes the curve!"

He told me there's good reason for that stereotype, though. He said it's probably NOT true that Asians (as a whole) are inherently better at math than the rest. It's that ONLY the smart Asians make it into the U.S. to study math. He put it bluntly, "all the dumb Asians are still back in Asia."

So if you only sample the Asians at U.S. universities, you probably WILL find that they are better at math than the average American. It's not just a stereotype!

They can do math and science but put them behind the wheel of a car and it's scary.

May I never see another white Toyota minivan with a dent in the back of it, ever again.

Personally, I am doing just fine. I am fairly successful depending on how you measure success. I've made between $130k & $160k a year the last 7 years. In the place I work, there is not disparity between my salary and that of the women, blacks, whites, browns, yellows, reds, straights, gays. My original post said "as far as I can tell" and also concluded with the question "am I wrong?" Now of course some of you agree with me, and some of you vehemently disagree. Fair enough. Let me just say, in the microcosm of my own universe, there are subgroups within my agency. "blacks for blacks" , "women for women", "hispanics for hispanics" etc. Why? Why are they allowed to exist at all? They are not marginalized within the workplace AT ALL. We are all treated the same UNLESS I tried to start a pro white group, in which case I would be immediately fired. How are their groups serving the betterment of society or the workplace? And if you have a good argument as to why they serve a positive purpose, then why would my pro white group not serve the same positive purpose???

Oh, and btw, Nomo and Kevin. I am not a victim. I DO feel many of my fellow middle aged straight white males are victimized, however. Beyond that, I just enjoy the discussion. Thanks for keeping it *cough* civil.

kentm says

Reconcile this statement with the study I posted above that proved how competent individuals were passed over because of the internalized biases of those judging them in favor of more visually acceptable but less competent individuals. I double dog dare you to acknowledge and accept the findings of that study, WITHOUT twisting it's meaning to support your position, which is exactly the opposite.

I don't refute your study. I disagree with the viewpoint that STATE SPONSORED ANTI-WHITE PREJUDICE (affirmative action) is a good thing!

Honest Abe says

Kevin, "Crackers" are not allowed to form groups to promote their own advancement (which was the main point of the original post).

Its not that whitie isn't involved with government, business, education, religion. It's just not acceptable to liberals or other racist groups for whites to form groups LIKE THEY HAVE, to "promote or advance" their own agenda.

I agree with you Abe....Lets get this thread back on topic and consider this as a factor in Whites not being able to form racially solid groups....

In Chandler Arizona in 2007, the police described a "Hispanic" male that was a suspect in a crime. The Vice President for the network, KMYL radio, demanded this was "racial profiling" and said the police should have said the man was "dark-skinned" (Nicole Beyer, "Calling Rapist a Hispanic Irks Radio Station," East Valley Tribune, Nov. 10,2007)

In Hillsborough Florida, the local high school editor was going to publish an article on the racial gap in standardized test scores. William Orr, the principal, ordered the article be removed from the paper because even though the article was factually correct, he wouldn't let students self esteem be hurt (Letitia Stein, "School Newspaper Censored" St. Petersburg Times, Oct 24, 2006).

On January 15, 2005, There was a march to celebrate the Martin Luther King holiday. A white police officer was helping to patrol the route of the parade. A snack van was sent out for the hungry officers and he chose a banana to eat. To his amazement, members of the march insisted he was comparing them to apes! The mayor of the city wrote an apology letter! (Sorry About the Snacks," Columbus Ledger-Enquirer (GA) Jan. 28, 2005)

Whites have been conditioned to police their speech and actions because of innumerous incidents like these portrayed in the media, pop culture, and experienced in their own personal lives. Whites know minorities, but blacks in particular, will take offense to almost anything! Whites have been conditioned to be afraid of being called a racist, or prejudiced. They know that they could lose jobs, business contacts, social acceptance, etc. if they are labeled as a racist.

Experiments at the Tufts University and Harvard Business School have proven that White children as young as 10 have this "fear" of appearing racist. They were paired with another subject. One of the subjects had 1 photo of a specific person on it. The other subject had 30 photos of different people. The subject had to figure out what photo the other was holding only by asking yes or no questions. Obviously, asking questions about the race of the individual would significantly narrow down the choices, but the white subject would only do so if his partner was white. If his partner was black, only 10% would ask questions about race. They were afraid to admit they even noticed race! Co-author of the study, Kristin Pauker, said "This result is fascinating because it shows that children as young as 10 feel the need to try to avoid appearing prejudiced, even if doing so leads them to perform poorly on a basic cognitive test".

Although, there is no consequences if minorities don't follow this "racial etiquette".

A black commissioner in Orlando Florida angered the police when she stated that a "white boy" police officer pulled her over. When an apology was demanded she said, "That is how I talk and I don't plan to change" (Mark Schlueb, "Orlando Police Seek Apology for City Commissionars Remarks," Orlando Sentinal, June 20, 2006)

Sharp James, the Mayor of Newark New Jersey was seeking relection in 2002. He described his lighter skinned black opponent as the "Faggot White Boy". Apparently this was socially acceptable because he was elected back into office by the majority-black electorate (Deroy Murdock, "Dems Need to Houseclean," National Review Online, Jan. 6, 2003).

The aforementioned, "racial etiquette" has been instilled in whites since they were children. They also have been indoctrinated with anti-white sentiment and "white guilt" from day one. Whereas non-whites are taught to "embrace" their racial, cultural, and ethnic identities. This is a big factor in forming homogeneous groups.

It's the fucking Irish's fault. They need to pack up their whiskey stained asses and get the fuck out of America.

Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

It's the fucking Irish's fault.

Let's send all of the inferior ungrateful Europeans who aren't white anglo saxon protestants, back to where they belong.

Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

It's the fucking Irish's fault. They need to pack up their whiskey stained asses and get the fuck out of America.

But we don't want the Irish!

Aw, hell...everybody.

See, Jeremy works in a fine establishment which is color blind. He works with all races, nationalities, colors and creeds. No one gets "special treatment" - apparently it works, and everyone gets along just fine.

The key is to give no one preferential treatment. People are allowed to rise to the limit of their abliity

Free at last, free at last, thank god almighty, I'm free at last.

I had a dream where we all sat the same table of social services, and argued over who was the most minority oppressed.

Honest Abe says

See, Jeremy works in a fine establishment which is color blind. He works with all races, nationalities, colors and creeds. No one gets "special treatment" - apparently it works, and everyone gets along just fine.

And that's so rare in the US. If it weren't for those crazy liberals you could probably see this almost anywhere, at least in urban areas where the populations are diverse.

Just kidding. We have that all over the place. Abe obviously lives in some hyper monochrome racist city where people don't even know what actually already happens in the big city.

And Abe doesn't know that people who are truly "color blind" or close to it, don't say so over and over. In fact, that's something that only someone with some serious race issues would say. Abe, in some future life, you will be color blind, when you are very rarely talking or thinking about race.

"The State is the great fiction where everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else".

Nomograph says

Once again, a partial list of organizations dedicated to the advancement of white folk:

* American Third Position Party, is an American political party which promotes white supremacism. It was founded in 2010, and defines its principal mission as representing the political interests of white Americans.

* American Nazi Party, is a neo-Nazi organization based largely upon the ideals and policies of Adolf Hitler's NSDAP in Germany during the Third Reich but claims that it is in conformance with the Constitutional principles of the U.S.'s Founding Fathers. It also supports Holocaust denial.

* Aryan Nations, is a white supremacist neo-Nazi organization founded in the 1970s by Richard Girnt Butler as an arm of the Christian Identity group known as the Church of Jesus Christ-Christian.

Didn't we already go through this?

Scagnetti says

Nomograph's argument is transparent here. Every group he named, is or has been labeled as a white supremacist or "hate" group. He is attempting to label all white groups who are racially solidified as racist. There are black supremacist groups too such as.....

-Nation of Islam
-New Black Panther Party
-United Nuwaubian Nation of Moors
-Tribu Ka
-Nation of Yahweh
-Bobo Shanti
etc. etc.

This does not mean that all black groups are racist. Nor is Nomograph suggesting this. He is saying that....

Nomograph says

The world is filled with double, triple, quadruple, and higher order standards. Many of these multiple standards have evolved or were created for very good reasons.

Scagnetti says

Many of these multiple standards have evolved or were created for very good reasons huh? Since the context of this thread is whites, you must be preaching that whites SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to form a group for good reasons. What are these reasons?

Remember what I said before?

Scagnetti says

It's possible to organize a fellowship of all whites promoting the advancement of "white people". You need to be ready to be called a "racist","nazi", "kkk member" etc. etc. See below......

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

Isn't this what the klan and the militia movement and, lately, the teabaggers were all about?

The anti-white figureheads, pundits, and parrots will come out in force to discredit a group like that any way possible. The most common tactic would be to call the group "racist". It doesn't matter if anything they say is true or not, what matters is the label.

Scagnetti says

It looks like Nomograph has degenerated to the point where he will insinuate that any racially conscious white group is racist, just like I said would happen above. Am I a psychic or do you think this type of illogical reasoning has been used before?

marcus says

If calmly observing that you are a racist idiot is what you call an emotional meltdown then okay.

I would gladly post my SAT scores on here to compare to yours....but you probably would just say I scored higher because of socioeconomic factors!

marcus says

But hey, I'm just a teacher, what would I know.

Exactly!

"Those that can - do. Those that can't - teach!" H.L. Mencken

Scagnetti says

I would gladly post my SAT scores on here to compare to yours

I don't need to see your SAT scores to know your intelligence. And besides, what we are talking about here in part is about irrational emotions.

Scagnetti says

"Those that can - do. Those that can't - teach!"

That quote doesn't bother me. Mencken didn't teach, and obviously was more successful out in the world than in school. Or maybe he was just too self involved to consider teaching(obviously he could have taught some writing classes if he had wanted to. But was successful writing - without teaching - which may be the genesis of the thoughts behind the quote). So?

I've done other things besides teach, and probably will again. I didn't used to have all that much respect for teachers, and I still don't have all that much respect for some of them. I can tell you this though. Until you do it, you have no idea what it's like. That is the challenges, and the difficulties, but also truly enjoyable parts of it.

marcus says

And besides, what we are talking about here in part is about irrational emotions.

Tell me more about your irrational emotions. I may be able to help you.

marcus says

marcus says

Why would your default belief NOT be that those differences are due to socioeconomic reasons rather than race? And why would you not require proof to believe otherwise ?

marcus says

marcus says

marcus says

Why would your default belief NOT be that those differences are due to socioeconomic reasons rather than race? And why would you not require proof to believe otherwise ?

OK, I'll bite. Here is a quote from the leftist NYTimes...

"It is common knowledge that a person's appearance -- height, hair color, skin color, and eye color -- are determined by genes. MENTAL ABILITIES AND NATURAL TALENTS ARE ALSO AFFECTED BY HEREDITY, as is the susceptibility to acquire certain diseases." http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/specialtopic/genetics/overview.html

Marcus, I could post all day on studies, experiments, tests, etc. about this topic. Is that what you want me to do? Remember, last time you couldn't control your "irrational emotions" because I challenged your assumptions with evidence that was unpleasant to your eyes. I think this way because it is logical. All I ask for is an open mind. You ask for blind faith!

I answered yours, now answer mine.

Scagnetti says

Did you know that the VAST majority of world class sprinters are from African descent? Why is that? Are you going to argue that whites can overcome this deficiency within a few generations with proper training, equal opportunity, and a different culture? Or do you think blacks' dominance in sprinting is just raw innate talent?

P.S. ~ I like how the quote stated, "It is common knowledge". HA! As my grandmother used to say, "Common knowledge isn't so common anymore!"

P.P.S. ~ I already acknowledged socioeconomic condition as a FACTOR so don't go trying to put words in my mouth again.

Scagnetti says

I answered yours, now answer mine.

Scagnetti says

Did you know that the VAST majority of world class sprinters are from African descent? Why is that? Are you going to argue that whites can overcome this deficiency within a few generations with proper training, equal opportunity, and a different culture? Or do you think blacks' dominance in sprinting is just raw innate talent?

What's wrong Marcus? Tongue tied?

marcus says

But hey, I'm just a teacher, what would I know.

I'm starting to think that you teach at bartending school!

Folks like Marcus have so much emotional capital invested in their idea that, "all people are created exactly the same", that all critiques of their assumptions are intolerable! It is a proven fact that lots of traits are genetic. Environmental and social factors only go so far. It is SO EASY to point out these obvious things, that any attempt to do so will be countered with the accusation of racism! Just like Marcus and his cronies have done to me all along! Watch him do it again, he can't resist!

Scagnetti says

Folks like Marcus have so much emotional capital invested in their idea that,"all people are created exactly the same"

This is proof of what a dim bulb you are.

I say that AVERAGE under-performance of millions of african americans or latino on SATs are attributable to socioeconomic reasons (ie these groups are disproportionately low income).

And from that he wants to regurgitate some white supremacist talking point that I said every individual is identical.

marcus says

Scagnetti says

Folks like Marcus have so much emotional capital invested in their idea that,"all people are created exactly the same"

This is proof of what a dim bulb you are.

I say that AVERAGE under-performance of millions of african americans or latino on SATs are attributable to socioeconomic reasons (ie these groups are disproportionately low income).

And from that he wants to regurgitate some white supremacist talking point that I said every individual is identical.

Thanks for proving my point! You did exactly what I said you'd do. You can't refute my facts! Nor can you prove your theory! You can only call me a racist. I bet you don't answer my previous question! Are you losing control of your "irrational emotions" again?