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Tenpoundbass
2013 Feb 19, 8:01am
Second, electing a black president does not solve the systemic problems I mentioned.
You didn't outline any systemic problems.
That's like me saying I'm not Rich because I'm not Jewish.
It's an insult to both Jews and non Jews.
Opportunity is one part of a two part unit.
It takes Luck, Experience or Money to take advantage of any Opportunity. Experience and Luck isn't hard to achieve, you just got to put your self out there. You wont gain any experience feeling like a Victim.
I always managed to take advantage of Opportunities soley by Luck or Experience. Mostly Luck, I think me buying this house, was the first time in my life at age 43 where money played a part in me taking advantage of opportunity.
But even then luck had a lot to do with it. I was damn lucky that the market was tanking, and we had an pandering Washington, that was making it easier for me to buy a house, during a time it should have been a lot harder than it was. I mean 3.5% down instead of 20% which has always held me back from buying a house. Except for the bubble years, that was choice.
But I had the money and the steady verifiable income that helped me get the house.
If this were all because I was White, then this would be an all exclusive White neighborhood, which it is not.
CL
2013 Feb 19, 8:12am
You didn't outline any systemic problems.
Aren't the below systemic?
Society is unjust. It is moreso unjust if you're black and in America.
Why is black infant mortality higher in America than in Cuba? Why is black literacy higher in Cuba than America? Why is the rate of incarceration so high here for the black population?
CL
2013 Feb 19, 8:29am
How will we know when it is fixed?
Our president is not white. So what? I will judge him on his actions, not his color.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today!" MLK
I don't judge people by their color but I do judge them by their actions, hygiene, dress, language, and attitude. Sometimes I judge wrong but I do not prejudge simply because of color?
That's great! It would be better if the millions who don't act as you do started. As it is, we are still a long way off.
Maybe we'll know when babies don't die in America simply because they are black. Or when the justice system is colorblind and fair. Or when the Senate doesn't have a dearth of minorities. Or when there are a thousand more black CEOs.
Tenpoundbass
2013 Feb 19, 8:31am
Why is black infant mortality higher in America than in Cuba? Why is black literacy higher in Cuba than America? Why is the rate of incarceration so high here for the black population?
And this holds all black people back how???????????????????????
The town I was born in, men are likely to be killed by their F250 falling off a jack stand, I turned out OK.
CL
2013 Feb 19, 8:42am
Or when there are a thousand more black CEOs.
Would you settle for 900?
In my opinion the oligarchy wants to perpetuate war. Race war, class war, Vietnam, the war on poverty, Afghanistan, The war on drugs, TERRORISM, all of the wars are just an effort to keep us down, keep us fighting, and to profit off the chaos.
And how better to do that than to make the downtrodden kick those "beneath" them on the ladder?
Obama is black.
Obama's family on his mother's side is all white people as far as we can tell.
Obama's family on his father's side is all black people as far as we can tell.
Technically speaking he is just as white as he is black.
Tenpoundbass
2013 Feb 19, 8:52am
Haitians usually don't fare well when their boat sinks or capsizes.
See how many Cubans swim a shore after their boats sink.
In these stories, there's more that swim ashore than parish.
I know I'm being prejudice again.
It is rare when a boat capsizes and even some manage to swim a shore.
Dan8267
2013 Feb 19, 8:54am
America has plenty of racists, they are liberals who support affirmative action laws.
Liberals don't support Affirmative Action as it violates the 14th Amendment just like the ban on gay marriage. Liberals, by definition, believe in equality under law for all citizens. Liberty for all.
Once again, the right fails to realize that American "left" is just an arbitrary set of political beliefs just like the American "right" and neither has anything to do with the philosophy of liberalism, which means the same thing everywhere in the world.
CL
2013 Feb 19, 9:12am
I did some quick Googling and was shocked about the statistics on black infant mortality:
Thanks for that. Yes, it is shocking!
No matter the cause, it can't be called anything but systemic. I don't believe the war on poverty can be blamed, but if it is, I'd change that too.
Seems to me that before the War on Poverty, blacks were slaves. Then were allowed to take menial jobs (the best jobs may have been as porters on cross-country trains). Today they are experiencing high incarceration rates, high unemployment, inferior medical treatment, inferior education, etc.
Better than slavery? Sure. That's a low bar.
CL
2013 Feb 19, 9:23am
o This black/white disparity in infant death rates has either held steady
or widened since 1980
And again, we should note that these children had the MISFORTUNE of being born black in America.
All the Haitians and Jamaicans I know are from upper middle class neighborhoods and future Doctors who work hard.
I've never met a Haitian or a Jamaican in THIS country that feels oppressed by White People or that the system is holding them back somehow.
I don't know about Haitians, but in general, people native to Caribbean countries don't really go to the beach and many never learned to swim. Rather, that's what Americans and Europeans do when they go to those countries.
Haitians can't swim
That seems prejudiced.
RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks
2013 Feb 19, 9:39am
how do these data fit into the common "theories" out there. looks like to me Central/South Americans are leading the homicide chart.
By country
UNODC murder rates most recent year (full table here)
Country Rate Count Region Subregion
Honduras 91.6 7,104 Americas Central America
El Salvador 69.2 4,308 Americas Central America
Côte d'Ivoire 56.9 10,801 Africa Western Africa
Jamaica 52.2 1,430 Americas Caribbean
Venezuela 45.1 13,080 Americas South America
Belize 41.4 129 Americas Central America
U.S. Virgin Islands 39.2 43 Americas Caribbean
Guatemala 38.5 5,681 Americas Central America
Saint Kitts and Nevis 38.2 20 Americas Caribbean
Lesotho 35.2 764 Africa Southern Africa
Trinidad and Tobago 35.2 472 Americas Caribbean
South Africa 31.8 15,940 Africa Southern Africa
Colombia 31.0 14,670+[10] Americas South America
Congo 30.8 1,180 Africa Middle Africa
Central African Republic 29.3 1,240 Africa Middle Africa
Bahamas 27.4 94 Americas Caribbean
Puerto Rico 26.2 983 Americas Caribbean
Saint Lucia 25.2 44 Americas Caribbean
Dominican Republic 25.0 2,513 Americas Caribbean
Tanzania 24.5 10,357 Africa Eastern Africa
CL
2013 Feb 19, 9:48am
how do these data fit into the common "theories" out there. looks like to me Central/South Americans are leading the homicide chart.
By country
UNODC murder rates most recent year (full table here)
Country Rate Count Region Subregion
Honduras 91.6 7,104 Americas Central America
http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/10/homicide-rates
"IT IS famously tricky to compare crime statistics across frontiers. Murder figures are the best of the bunch because the offence is usually reported. According to the first global study on homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, most of the world's 468,000 intentional homicides in 2010 were in Africa (36%) and the Americas (31%), where the murder rate was 15-16 per 100,000 people, more than twice the global average of 6.9 per 100,000. Homicide in most parts of the world has been falling since 1995, but it has risen recently in Central America and the Caribbean. (There are no reliable data for Africa.) The study suggests two broad trends. The first is a link between development and crime. Countries with low scores on the United Nations Development Programme's human-development index tend to have high murder rates and vice versa. But exceptions to this reveal a second trend. Organised crime, drug trafficking, violent gang culture and the prevalence of firearms are also correlated with higher murder rates, even in relatively developed countries. Honduras and El Salvador, which have the highest and second-highest murder rates in the world (82 per 100,000 and 66 per 100,000 respectively), are the prime examples of this. One worrying final thought: sudden dips in economic performance have also been known to increase the homicide rate, usually with a lag.
lostand confused
2013 Feb 19, 12:40pm
Lot of issues all comingle when it comes to race. Before , blacks were slaves and property/chattel. But that era has since long gone. It is the same for women-they couldn't vote and hold many jobs. So intitially these programs made sense to open up areas-which they were prohibited from by law/social mores etc.
But today it is a different game. If you go by race alone, then Beyonce's baby will get affirmative action, while some poor white kid born and raised by methheads will be considered "privileaged." The same for women-today's women can and do pretty much any job, but if they choose to stay at home, the law considers them to be helpless critters to be supported for life by men. Which is very unfair.
The problem is the dems are for the status quo. The republicans on the other hand want to go back to the way it was and come up with inane theories like the poster foxmann. That ship has sailed a long time ago. Instead if one talked logically about these issues-welfare abuse, crime rates by race or alimony to a certain gender, we can have a dialogue. The other side can yell racist or misogynist all they want-but it ain't gonna stick. Because you are just pointing out the obvious. But instead if the right goes all 1950s-then the status quo continues.
Maybe they work hard. Like I said all the Haitians I know from South Florida and Brooklyn, as well as Jamaicans from Long Island and South Florida are future doctors. Close to 3% of my class to be exact
Society is unjust. It is moreso unjust if you're black and in America.
Not for Haitians and Jamaicans, wonder why that is?
If I really had all the time in the world between commenting on patnet and scratching my rear end, I bet I could pull that off. In your case, you'd really have to be 'down for the cause'.....you know, not be a 'cornball brother'....Plus you might have to actually like rap music and be knowledgeable about it, as well as R&B. Ebonics would be a plus.
Not only could I get hired, I probably be good at hiring as well. Pretty impressive job description, if I don't say so myself
Think I could get a Job at Jet Magazine or BET?
Just like Emory University back in the 1990s
Beyonce's baby will get affirmative action, while some poor white kid born and raised by methheads will be considered "privileaged."
CL
2013 Feb 21, 1:46am
To summarize the seemingly consensus view here:
1) We (regardless of ethnicity) are right to fear blacks if they are walking towards us in a dark alley, since they are much more likely to murder us than a Caucasian
2) Yet when a black person applies for a job, the same fear does not prevent their being hired.
They just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and those who care should never try to help by affording them jobs, education or opportunities beyond what the society offers the white community by default.
White people deserve the benefit of the doubt, whereas a black or Latino deserves the doubt.
Is that about right?
coriacci1
2013 Feb 21, 2:46am
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/black-nurses-banned-caring-child-michigan-hospital
Black Nurses Banned from Caring for Child in Michigan Hospital
Hospital facing lawsuit after complying with a swastika-tattooed father's request that only white nurses care for his child.
Tenpoundbass
2013 Feb 21, 2:58am
In south Florida there would be no problem for an elderly Jewish person to say that they don't want a shikse or a schwartza working on them.
NONE it would be a non issue, and if you dared make it one, then you're antisemitic.
zzyzzx
2013 Feb 21, 3:00am
how do these data fit into the common "theories" out there. looks like to me Central/South Americans are leading the homicide chart.
Plenty of black people in some of those countries.
zzyzzx
2013 Feb 21, 3:01am
Liberals don't support Affirmative Action
Affirmative action wouldn't still exist without liberal support for it.
Tenpoundbass
2013 Feb 21, 3:20am
Do blacks commit more crimes per capita than whites...or are they just arrested more often
I think they lack the Down low concept.
I drove past 5 guys standing on the street in front of their house the other day. They were openly passing around a huge blunt, with a big billowing puff of smoke coming from the passer as he handed it off the passer.
Only ridiculously stupid White people that fancy them selves as urban hip, does that.
Unless they are at a Phish concert.
Just look at the news, on those CCTV video releases of burglars stories, where they are asking for the help of the public to identify the perps.
Most always the blacks just stroll right in, face uncovered and they even have the audacity to look every camera's straight on.
Ever catch the world dumbest crooks caught on video and see all of the stupid White guys that put dark pillow cases over their heads, or a trash bag. Not to say that there's not a shortage of Dumb white guys, because some forget to even cut eye holes so they can see. But at least they were thinking about the cameras.
Also look at the black guys with hair huge dreads, and if that doesn't stand out enough, they do something more to it to draw attention to them selves, like tie it all up on the top of their head. So they just held up a liquor store, then flee the scene on foot, and think it's going to be hard to spot, Predator(the alien movie reference) running down the street in a business class neighborhood.
Black crooks that are less assuming don't get caught as much. Just all of the ones that have a limited sense of limitations, and lack the ability to be slick about it.
FortWayne
2013 Feb 21, 3:39am
To summarize the seemingly consensus view here:
1) We (regardless of ethnicity) are right to fear blacks if they are walking towards us in a dark alley, since they are much more likely to murder us than a Caucasian
2) Yet when a black person applies for a job, the same fear does not prevent their being hired.
They just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and those who care should never try to help by affording them jobs, education or opportunities beyond what the society offers the white community by default.
White people deserve the benefit of the doubt, whereas a black or Latino deserves the doubt.
Is that about right?
You just sound like a person who blames others for personal failures.
Our government for a while made it easy to just claim to be a victim of society and you got paid, got tangible benefits, and quickly many folks jumped onto the train.
I guess seeing folks with a mindset like yours, victim mentality, I don't see that changing any time soon.
CL
2013 Feb 21, 3:55am
You just sound like a person who blames others for personal failures.
Where would you get that? I clearly am indicting the society, of which I am a part, for SYSTEMIC problems that treat blacks differently than whites.
Yet, it is hardly a personal issue when demographically an entire ethnicity not only fares worse by any metric, but is treated as though it is their own fault.
It's really you who are blaming the victim here.
On what grounds would you posit that they are not victimized by our society?
Unequal healthcare, unequal education and unequal treatment under the law.
Unless, as is implied, there is a genetic component to "black struggle"? But even the detractors here don't believe that, except for Foxman.
So, you are assigning personal failure to an entire class of people, right?
Rew
2013 Feb 21, 4:16am
You just sound like a person who blames others for personal failures.
Our government for a while made it easy to just claim to be a victim of society and you got paid, got tangible benefits, and quickly many folks jumped onto the train.
I guess seeing folks with a mindset like yours, victim mentality, I don't see that changing any time soon.
What? I see nothing in the above that is laying blame for a personal failing.
A disadvantaged child, growing up in a drug addicted home, and in poverty has the same chance in america as a child growing up in a wealthy household in Cupertino? Is this your claim?
Affirmative Action works by you claiming you are a victim? Is that how it goes? I challenge you to walk up to 100 people of your choice and ask them if they see themselves as a victim. If the answer yes, ask them what of? Ridiculous. Very few people label themselves as victims.
Affirmative action is a very imperfect way of trying to correct damage done to minorities and women in America's history. There is lots not to like about it, and there are some things which ARE actually needed/good.
The manner in which this can be done without detracting from someone's rightful achievement, or taking away from someone who has earned something, is troubling ... but I don't see a better solution.
What's your solution? Sounds to me like you think we have enough equality now in America to just let things sort themselves out. Demographics would show you are wrong.
Question: Do you think women in the muslim world would benefit from something like Affirmative Action? (and I am using muslim women here to represent a clearly discriminated against social group ... could as easily just be a minority, but this is a great example. Your answer to this question would tell you/me whether it is just Affirmative Action you have a problem with, or its use in America today.)
There will always be some who mooch off of social programs. Does that mean we should have nothing because a few will cheat? I don't like it any more than you do, I really don't, but the slight cost at those who will milk it is far less than the benefit social programs/"entitlements" have.
Again, your argument seems to go straight to : "dog eat dog world, no government needed, load 'em up and keep one in the chamber."
That's in no way shape or form the vision of America, or an America I want to live in. There is a balance here between personal responsibility and us helping those in society who need it.
coriacci1
2013 Feb 21, 4:23am
little true story:
A lovely 20 yr old african american college student came one day to give her resume for a summer job at my old place of work here in “progressive†san francisco.
she was perfect in every sense: accomplished, experienced, execellent grades, well spoken, well dressed etc. etc. the part- owner manager took her info and interviewed her on the spot. after the interview was over and they exchanged final handshakes, she said goodbye and left the building. at which point partner- manager takes her resume and rips it up in front of 6 employees while saying "you think i’m ever gonna give a job to the likes of that black bitch!"
i kid you not!
Tenpoundbass
2013 Feb 21, 4:28am
re: affirmative action.
We actually got it better than many countries.
You can not open a business in Malaysia with out taking on a "Silent" indigenous Malay as a silent partner. They are not even obligated to contribute NOTING to your business. They get 30%, and they didn't even invest in your business. When you are opening a business, you have to pick one from a list, and then cut them a check every month, based on your profits.
There was talk to do away with it, but I don't know what happened.
Also you can't emigrate there unless you have (RM)500K to put down on a house, and 500K to put in the bank.
Bap33
2013 Feb 21, 4:57am
Obama is black.
Obama's family on his mother's side is all white people as far as we can tell.
Obama's family on his father's side is all black people as far as we can tell.
Technically speaking he is just as white as he is black.
not exactly correct. On hos absent dad's side he is a small part negro/ african, and is a much larger portion arab (non-negro). It is a great example of the left looking foolish by calling Obama a "black" American. He aint. He is a light skinned, 1/2 white, partial arab, little bit of black - Hatian - american.
leo707
2013 Feb 21, 5:20am
re: affirmative action.
We actually got it better than many countries.
Yes, we do, but that does not mean that we are without our problems that need solutions.
Tenpoundbass
2013 Feb 21, 5:29am
Obviously you've never been to the Hemp Festival in Seattle...a 3 day open air celebration of pot smoking (and hemp use). They take over a city park in the heart of downtown and at the last one the Mayor and City Attorney gave speeches!
I said unless it's a Phish concert. (synonymous for Festival)
That being said, this is a phenomena I saw first hand at my first Grateful Dead concert in 1987 at the Miami arena. The hall way, was a big sit in, where heads from all over the world were sitting on the floor with their bags spread out in front of them rolling huge tatters, and passing them to the right. I was thinking OMG there's going to the Riot squad sent out.
The few Police I did notice, had this look on their face like... "Where would we even begin?" People do end up getting arrested, but it's usually because they did some other stupid stuff besides being caught smoking dope. Like donning a Conehead skull cap and jumping on the Green Peace table and doing pirouettes during China Cat sunflower while ignoring the Polices instructions to get down from the table.
In 1989-90 I don't remember which memorial day week end, Bay Front park in Miami, threw a huge free concert. With Foreigner, Alice Cooper, Damn the Torpedoes and a few other major acts. I thought we copped the only blotter doses there when we were offered a few tabs. But by time Foreigner the headliner was playing the whole park was coordinated off with that thick orange safety netting, no one in or no one out.
By then it was evident that 95% of the people there were tripping balls hard. We even saw two police officers who lost their shit, and just couldn't hold it together. Never saw one arrest.
I think its because there safety in numbers. If a large portion of the crowd is partaking, then they tend to just ignore it. How ever that's not to say if you're walking down the street on the way to the event even with just four of five of you, that you wont get popped. But the inside the events, I've never figured out if the promoters pay extra to not call out the patty wagons, or if it's just the unwritten code of Festivals.
These days, the last time I went to a head show, people seemed more low keyed. Nothing seemed to be happening out in the open like it had been in the past.
But I would say that if Cops bust black folk during the Hip Hop week end, when they are a large crowd partying on South Beach, then there must be some bias going on there.
Affirmative action is a very imperfect way of trying to correct damage done to
minorities and women in America's history. There is lots not to like about it,
and there are some things which ARE actually needed/good.
I think one can argue that Affirmative Action and other well meaning welfare programs trying to help certain groups of people can actually perpetuate some of problems they are trying help out.
For instance, our government have massively increased welfare aid to help single mothers and has reduced the stigma of out of wedlock births. Now over 70% of African American children are born to single mothers and GUARANTEED POVERTY.
No matter how much financial assistance the State provides, raising children to single parents is an almost guarantee of poverty, lack of education and crime. We see this cycle perpetuating in the black community and it is tragic.
I am not suggesting we don't have a safety net for the poor. But we need to also work on fixing the culture and encourage our families and communities to take responsibility to look after each other instead of the Feds.
Instead, we have Obama and the Democrats running goofy cartoon campaign ads about the "Life of Juila" showing how the government will help provide for Julia her entire life.
CL
2013 Feb 21, 6:47am
(I'm pro police and think they should protect themselves as the girl was being belligerent. But I'm just saying...about the differences in treatment.)
I always wonder if the rightwing gun advocates who fear the government have these guys in mind too?
Do they picture the BPP as fellow conceal-carry supporters?
Would they feel the same if the BPP came to say, a Romney rally brandishing their legal firearms?
CL
2013 Feb 21, 6:53am
http://www.youtube.com/embed/_DgB3WASwXA
The Romneys were on welfare. We should all be so lucky!
Another way of saying this: The path to hell is paved with good intentions
I think one can argue that Affirmative Action and other well meaning welfare programs trying to help certain groups of people can actually perpetuate some of problems they are trying help out.
Maybe this Indian individual should have been reading this thread
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Raveesh-Kumra-Use-of-Hookers-Lead-to-Homicide-190493151.html
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It is very politically incorrect but nonethess a fact that white people are much more likely to be murdered by black people in the US than vice versa.
Most murders are within the same race, but even then blacks have a much higher rate of murdering each other than whites do.
From http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl06.xls we see that in 2010, 447 whites were murdered by blacks, while 218 blacks were mudered by whites, for a total of 665 inter-racial murders.
Given that blacks are 12.6% of US population, and whites are 72.4% of US population, the population ratio is .174 to 1 black to white.
If the interracial murder rates were the same for both, we would expect 115 out of the 665 murders to be murders of whites by blacks. But the number was 447, which is 388% of the expected rate by populations.
OTOH, the total number was only 447 murders of whites by blacks, which is a small number relative to the total population of the US. There were over 40,000 deaths because of car accidents in the same year.
So a rational white person should be about 100 times more afraid of being killed by a car than being killed by a black person.
#crime