patrick.net

CL says

Then if you decided to punish the victims families disproportionately compared to non-victims, denied them jobs, and generally looked down on them for no other reason than their families had been victims.

MLK was a victim, you are not a victim get over yourself.

CL says

The last thing most racists want to openly acknowledge is that they have institutional advantage. Because, goddamn it, I earned all that I have!

Inheriting wealth isn't racist. America is not about equality of results.

FortWayne says

MLK was a victim, you are not a victim get over yourself.

You missed the point. You're acting like the last crime of murder or oppression based on ethnicity happened during the civil war. That's patently false.

Society is unjust. It is moreso unjust if you're black and in America.

Why is black infant mortality higher in America than in Cuba? Why is black literacy higher in Cuba than America? Why is the rate of incarceration so high here for the black population?

Clearly, there is something in our system that makes it so. Denial of that fact, I'd say, typically means that the denier simply wants to ignore it, perhaps to make themselves feel better.

Are employers color-blind? Or are there preferences in hiring whites over blacks? Why were Asians, Irish and Italians tasked with manual labor, if they were hired at all? Does your ethnicity affect the jobs you are allowed to take? And do the jobs you take affect your health, wealth and class?

C'mon guys. This isn't anything shocking...These are things to fix, not "get over".

CL says

America has many racists, largely conservatives

America has plenty of racists, they are liberals who support affirmative action laws.

CL says

Society is unjust. It is moreso unjust if you're black and in America.

Not for Haitians and Jamaicans, wonder why that is?

Why harangue-atang the black community?

Damn leo, that's RACIST!

I hate racists, and I for one am glad that I don't have to interact with them here in my Good Neighborhood with Good Schools

CL says

Are employers color-blind? Or are there preferences in hiring whites over blacks?

Think I could get a Job at Jet Magazine or BET?
My brother and I moved down here in '87, he got out of the Army, and came to NC where I was working as an insulator on a nuclear power plant that was under construction. He told me he was headed down to Ft Lauderdale, and because he was a Vet, his chances of getting hired on at the USPS was great. (Notice he didn't say because he was White?)

Well we came down and he never did get that job, he was told there was a black and Hispanic quota they were mandated to fill. My brother took another job, and was at that job though 4 different buy outs and take overs, moved three times over 25 some odd years, and it ended up being part of Valspar. Which just closed down that division of Gelcoats and Resins last year.

I bet there is not one single person that got hired on at the Post office at the time he applied that is still there. IF I had a company, I would want a 100 employees just like my brother. The USPS lost out on one hell of an Employee in 1987, when they passed my brother over for affirmative action.

zzyzzx says

post of the year...

CaptainShuddup says

The USPS lost out on one hell of an Employee in 1987, when they passed my brother over for affirmative action.

The USPS is (I believe) the largest or 2nd largest employer of Veterans in the country. Sounds like affirmative action for vets.

Weird that your brother couldn't land a gig there.

CaptainShuddup says

Not for Haitians and Jamaicans, wonder why that is?

Explain that?

CL says

Explain that?

I've never met a Haitian or a Jamaican in THIS country that feels oppressed by White People or that the system is holding them back somehow.
They are just too busy taking advantage of everything this country has to offer. Sure many have to work several jobs, but on average more Haitians and Jamaicans per population, are home owners compared to even Whites in this country.

Why do I say that? Down here in south Florida, most American Black communities are run down shacks that a few may own, but most rent. Where as there are several Haitian Jamaican communities where the majority of the houses are larger than the neighborhood I live in, and the majority owns.

And in the nice gated neighborhoods, the Majority of the Black people there are from the Caribbean islands.

That's not to say there are not poor Blacks from the islands, but then again there's plenty of White Trailer parks down here as well. Do they win a prize for being poor?

CL says

Weird that your brother couldn't land a gig there.

That was actually 1985, although I said '87.

CaptainShuddup says

That's not to say there are not poor Blacks from the islands, but then again there's plenty of White Trailer parks down here as well. Do they win a prize for being poor?

Right. Race and class are tightly correlated HERE. That's not to say all people of the lowest class are black. That's a logic error.

And there are a lot of poor folks in Florida.

As far as BET, I'd say that's an error too. Isn't it owned by Viacom? I'm sure Viacom will be mostly white. I'm not even sure you can call BET truly black programming, or is it programming that white people THINk black people like?

From what I've seen only Jamaicans with money even make it over to this country. When was the last time you saw a Jamaican refugee boat exodus?
They are either educated or part of a criminal network.
And Haitians knows what sheer desperation is. They didn't risk floating across the Florida straights on a rickety boat that might capsize with hundreds of feet from the coast and drown everyone on board(it has happened many times. Haitians can't swim), to come over here and play poor victim of poverty.

I used to work for two brothers, that came here from Haiti in the early 80s with nothing. Landed in NYC drove a Cab, saved money bought a fleet, sold it. Moved to south Florida started two prepaid phone services. Sold those, bought AM radio stations. Now they own every Caribbean radio station in almost every market in the US.
They also spent a lot of time dabbling in local politics to make sure their and the community needs were being met.

So, Cap'n reveals a few important points: There is nothing race-specific about genetics and success.

2nd, that those who struggle to get here might actually work harder than those who were born here (immigration plug!).

Lastly, how appealing it would be for racists to conclude, "that Jamaican...he's one of the "good ones", but the existence of a "good one" destroys the whole racist dynamic, n'est-ce pas?

What ever funny the people most hung up on Race in this country are White Liberals. Everything else is Class and Social issues. That is what Blacks are concerned with, because the truth is, Sam Roberts the belligerent redneck drunk at the end of the street, that sneers at them as he drives his '72 Ford truck past them. Doesn't have one single baring on their status, where they live, the car they drive, where they work, or where they go to school.
He's in the same damn boat they are, so they just call him Cracker as he drives by.

Though that's not to say that the "N" word isn't a good cause for fist-a-cuffs, but then again, so is wearing a basket ball jersey of the opposing team during the conference championships.

Those horrible bastards in their Orlando Magic jerseys please somebody make them stop.

CL says

Society is unjust. It is moreso unjust if you're black and in America.

Why is black infant mortality higher in America than in Cuba? Why is black literacy higher in Cuba than America? Why is the rate of incarceration so high here for the black population?

Get over yourself, the man running this country is black. Obama is black.

If that's not a sign for some losers to get off welfare and self pitying excuse train to start making a life for themselves there will never be a better one.

FortWayne says

Get over yourself, the man running this country is black. Obama is black.

If that's not a sign for some losers to get off welfare and self pitying excuse train to start making a life for themselves there will never be a better one.

This wrong on almost all counts:

First, I don't have to "get over myself". I just supplied some facts and asked the questions. What do we do about inequality?

Second, electing a black president does not solve the systemic problems I mentioned.

Third, why do you conflate being black with being on welfare? How does one do that, especially when there is high unemployment?

Fourth, Presidents are not the only entity at the table. There are teabaggers and angry white voters that wouldn't let a President make progress on something as innocuous as infant mortality. They'd say, you just want to give handouts to those dying babies to score votes!

In other words, I don't really understand your points.

CL says

Second, electing a black president does not solve the systemic problems I mentioned.

You didn't outline any systemic problems.
That's like me saying I'm not Rich because I'm not Jewish.
It's an insult to both Jews and non Jews.

Opportunity is one part of a two part unit.
It takes Luck, Experience or Money to take advantage of any Opportunity. Experience and Luck isn't hard to achieve, you just got to put your self out there. You wont gain any experience feeling like a Victim.

I always managed to take advantage of Opportunities soley by Luck or Experience. Mostly Luck, I think me buying this house, was the first time in my life at age 43 where money played a part in me taking advantage of opportunity.
But even then luck had a lot to do with it. I was damn lucky that the market was tanking, and we had an pandering Washington, that was making it easier for me to buy a house, during a time it should have been a lot harder than it was. I mean 3.5% down instead of 20% which has always held me back from buying a house. Except for the bubble years, that was choice.
But I had the money and the steady verifiable income that helped me get the house.
If this were all because I was White, then this would be an all exclusive White neighborhood, which it is not.

CaptainShuddup says

You didn't outline any systemic problems.

Aren't the below systemic?

CL says

Society is unjust. It is moreso unjust if you're black and in America.

Why is black infant mortality higher in America than in Cuba? Why is black literacy higher in Cuba than America? Why is the rate of incarceration so high here for the black population?

The Professor says

How will we know when it is fixed?

Our president is not white. So what? I will judge him on his actions, not his color.

"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today!" MLK

I don't judge people by their color but I do judge them by their actions, hygiene, dress, language, and attitude. Sometimes I judge wrong but I do not prejudge simply because of color?

That's great! It would be better if the millions who don't act as you do started. As it is, we are still a long way off.

Maybe we'll know when babies don't die in America simply because they are black. Or when the justice system is colorblind and fair. Or when the Senate doesn't have a dearth of minorities. Or when there are a thousand more black CEOs.

CL says

Why is black infant mortality higher in America than in Cuba? Why is black literacy higher in Cuba than America? Why is the rate of incarceration so high here for the black population?

And this holds all black people back how???????????????????????
The town I was born in, men are likely to be killed by their F250 falling off a jack stand, I turned out OK.

The Professor says

CL says

Or when there are a thousand more black CEOs.

Would you settle for 900?

In my opinion the oligarchy wants to perpetuate war. Race war, class war, Vietnam, the war on poverty, Afghanistan, The war on drugs, TERRORISM, all of the wars are just an effort to keep us down, keep us fighting, and to profit off the chaos.

And how better to do that than to make the downtrodden kick those "beneath" them on the ladder?

FortWayne says

Obama is black.

Obama's family on his mother's side is all white people as far as we can tell.

Obama's family on his father's side is all black people as far as we can tell.

Technically speaking he is just as white as he is black.

Haitians usually don't fare well when their boat sinks or capsizes.

https://www.google.com/search?q=haitins+srwn&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=4&gs_ri=psy-ab&gs_mss=haitians%20drown&pq=haitians%20srwn&cp=24&gs_id=yz&xhr=t&q=haitians+drown+when+boat&es_nrs=true&pf=p&client=firefox-a&hs=p2y&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&oq=haitians+drown+when+boat&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42661473,d.eWU&fp=46c83184b0067790&biw=923&bih=415

See how many Cubans swim a shore after their boats sink.
In these stories, there's more that swim ashore than parish.

https://www.google.com/search?q=haitins+srwn&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&q=cubans+swim+a+shore+after+boat+capsizes&oq=cubans+swim+a+shore+after+boat+capsizes&gs_l=serp.3...23794.25515.3.25709.8.7.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.4.psy-ab.i2J4Tpcstkk&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42661473,d.eWU&fp=46c83184b0067790&biw=923&bih=415

I know I'm being prejudice again.
It is rare when a boat capsizes and even some manage to swim a shore.

https://www.google.com/search?q=haitins+srwn&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&spell=1&q=Haitian+swim+ashore+after+boat+capsizes&sa=X&ei=-xskUa_dK5PY9QTP7YDYDQ&ved=0CCwQBSgA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42661473,d.eWU&fp=46c83184b0067790&biw=923&bih=415

zzyzzx says

America has plenty of racists, they are liberals who support affirmative action laws.

Liberals don't support Affirmative Action as it violates the 14th Amendment just like the ban on gay marriage. Liberals, by definition, believe in equality under law for all citizens. Liberty for all.

Once again, the right fails to realize that American "left" is just an arbitrary set of political beliefs just like the American "right" and neither has anything to do with the philosophy of liberalism, which means the same thing everywhere in the world.

The Professor says

I did some quick Googling and was shocked about the statistics on black infant mortality:

Thanks for that. Yes, it is shocking!

No matter the cause, it can't be called anything but systemic. I don't believe the war on poverty can be blamed, but if it is, I'd change that too.

Seems to me that before the War on Poverty, blacks were slaves. Then were allowed to take menial jobs (the best jobs may have been as porters on cross-country trains). Today they are experiencing high incarceration rates, high unemployment, inferior medical treatment, inferior education, etc.

Better than slavery? Sure. That's a low bar.

The Professor says

o This black/white disparity in infant death rates has either held steady

or widened since 1980

And again, we should note that these children had the MISFORTUNE of being born black in America.

All the Haitians and Jamaicans I know are from upper middle class neighborhoods and future Doctors who work hard.

CaptainShuddup says

I've never met a Haitian or a Jamaican in THIS country that feels oppressed by White People or that the system is holding them back somehow.

I don't know about Haitians, but in general, people native to Caribbean countries don't really go to the beach and many never learned to swim. Rather, that's what Americans and Europeans do when they go to those countries.

The Professor says

CaptainShuddup says

Haitians can't swim

That seems prejudiced.

how do these data fit into the common "theories" out there. looks like to me Central/South Americans are leading the homicide chart.

By country
UNODC murder rates most recent year (full table here)
Country Rate Count Region Subregion
Honduras 91.6 7,104 Americas Central America
El Salvador 69.2 4,308 Americas Central America
Côte d'Ivoire 56.9 10,801 Africa Western Africa
Jamaica 52.2 1,430 Americas Caribbean
Venezuela 45.1 13,080 Americas South America
Belize 41.4 129 Americas Central America
U.S. Virgin Islands 39.2 43 Americas Caribbean
Guatemala 38.5 5,681 Americas Central America
Saint Kitts and Nevis 38.2 20 Americas Caribbean
Lesotho 35.2 764 Africa Southern Africa
Trinidad and Tobago 35.2 472 Americas Caribbean
South Africa 31.8 15,940 Africa Southern Africa
Colombia 31.0 14,670+[10] Americas South America
Congo 30.8 1,180 Africa Middle Africa
Central African Republic 29.3 1,240 Africa Middle Africa
Bahamas 27.4 94 Americas Caribbean
Puerto Rico 26.2 983 Americas Caribbean
Saint Lucia 25.2 44 Americas Caribbean
Dominican Republic 25.0 2,513 Americas Caribbean
Tanzania 24.5 10,357 Africa Eastern Africa

Mark D says

how do these data fit into the common "theories" out there. looks like to me Central/South Americans are leading the homicide chart.

By country

UNODC murder rates most recent year (full table here)

Country Rate Count Region Subregion

Honduras 91.6 7,104 Americas Central America

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/10/homicide-rates

"IT IS famously tricky to compare crime statistics across frontiers. Murder figures are the best of the bunch because the offence is usually reported. According to the first global study on homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, most of the world's 468,000 intentional homicides in 2010 were in Africa (36%) and the Americas (31%), where the murder rate was 15-16 per 100,000 people, more than twice the global average of 6.9 per 100,000. Homicide in most parts of the world has been falling since 1995, but it has risen recently in Central America and the Caribbean. (There are no reliable data for Africa.) The study suggests two broad trends. The first is a link between development and crime. Countries with low scores on the United Nations Development Programme's human-development index tend to have high murder rates and vice versa. But exceptions to this reveal a second trend. Organised crime, drug trafficking, violent gang culture and the prevalence of firearms are also correlated with higher murder rates, even in relatively developed countries. Honduras and El Salvador, which have the highest and second-highest murder rates in the world (82 per 100,000 and 66 per 100,000 respectively), are the prime examples of this. One worrying final thought: sudden dips in economic performance have also been known to increase the homicide rate, usually with a lag.

Lot of issues all comingle when it comes to race. Before , blacks were slaves and property/chattel. But that era has since long gone. It is the same for women-they couldn't vote and hold many jobs. So intitially these programs made sense to open up areas-which they were prohibited from by law/social mores etc.

But today it is a different game. If you go by race alone, then Beyonce's baby will get affirmative action, while some poor white kid born and raised by methheads will be considered "privileaged." The same for women-today's women can and do pretty much any job, but if they choose to stay at home, the law considers them to be helpless critters to be supported for life by men. Which is very unfair.

The problem is the dems are for the status quo. The republicans on the other hand want to go back to the way it was and come up with inane theories like the poster foxmann. That ship has sailed a long time ago. Instead if one talked logically about these issues-welfare abuse, crime rates by race or alimony to a certain gender, we can have a dialogue. The other side can yell racist or misogynist all they want-but it ain't gonna stick. Because you are just pointing out the obvious. But instead if the right goes all 1950s-then the status quo continues.

Maybe they work hard. Like I said all the Haitians I know from South Florida and Brooklyn, as well as Jamaicans from Long Island and South Florida are future doctors. Close to 3% of my class to be exact

CaptainShuddup says

CL says

Society is unjust. It is moreso unjust if you're black and in America.

Not for Haitians and Jamaicans, wonder why that is?

If I really had all the time in the world between commenting on patnet and scratching my rear end, I bet I could pull that off. In your case, you'd really have to be 'down for the cause'.....you know, not be a 'cornball brother'....Plus you might have to actually like rap music and be knowledgeable about it, as well as R&B. Ebonics would be a plus.

Not only could I get hired, I probably be good at hiring as well. Pretty impressive job description, if I don't say so myself

CaptainShuddup says

Think I could get a Job at Jet Magazine or BET?

Just like Emory University back in the 1990s

lostand confused says

Beyonce's baby will get affirmative action, while some poor white kid born and raised by methheads will be considered "privileaged."

racisim is the “american way” period!

To summarize the seemingly consensus view here:

1) We (regardless of ethnicity) are right to fear blacks if they are walking towards us in a dark alley, since they are much more likely to murder us than a Caucasian

2) Yet when a black person applies for a job, the same fear does not prevent their being hired.

They just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and those who care should never try to help by affording them jobs, education or opportunities beyond what the society offers the white community by default.

White people deserve the benefit of the doubt, whereas a black or Latino deserves the doubt.

Is that about right?

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/black-nurses-banned-caring-child-michigan-hospital

Black Nurses Banned from Caring for Child in Michigan Hospital
Hospital facing lawsuit after complying with a swastika-tattooed father's request that only white nurses care for his child.

CL says

Is that about right?

Yep!

In south Florida there would be no problem for an elderly Jewish person to say that they don't want a shikse or a schwartza working on them.
NONE it would be a non issue, and if you dared make it one, then you're antisemitic.