patrick.net

I will:

F: start shorting the banks that hold the mortgages

I will do what wthrfrk80 is doing. Fundamentals will assure that another "bubble" can only be temporary.

A lot of people will simply move.

wthrfrk80 says

I will:

F: start shorting the banks that hold the mortgages

Same here, of course I don't live in the BA. But the way this state is ran I wouldn't be surprised if many will want to abandon it simply.

IBM has job openings in San Jose and San Francisco on a regular basis that can't be filled. Most of their people can't afford to live in the area.

Things aren't gonna change. There's no reason. The trust fund babies are still here. The wealthy Baby Boomers are still here. The Berkeley profs who live in Orinda and Lafayette are still here.

If anything, the property situation and income disparity are likely to get worse.

There's too much money here...but that's how it is. Been that way for years.

wouldn't do anything different.

1. keep renting
2. keep investing the extra money i save by renting, in stocks and bonds

i make good money. rent is cheap. no reason to change my strategy.

I think this is just a spring bump up that will not last. Yahoo laying off thousands of workers will balance out the facebook IPO.

We are looking, but will keep renting til we find exactly what we want. We are looking in the 400-600K range in the city and I have been following very closely.

There is a shadow inventory out there and banks are sitting on vacant homes, even in desirable places within San Francisco.

Everyone who bought between 2004 and 2008 is underwater, to the tune of 100K or more.

The only reason we are seeing bidding wars is because realtors are listing places for under what they know they will go for. There are plenty of places that are sitting fort 30, 60, 90+ days.

1sfrenter says

The only reason we are seeing bidding wars is because realtors are listing places for under what they know they will go for. There are plenty of places that are sitting fort 30, 60, 90+ days.

Well the thing is that even though the realtor was trying to insinuate that things were heating up, there are a lot of houses that have been sitting, sometimes for a marked period of time. Now- granted most have now sold and some seemingly more recently. But some had been sitting for 6-9 months.

At least in the area we live in it seems that there are homes that will sell, but only at a certain price. Anything that's north of 500k seems to sit. Anything over 600k sits for quite a long time. Perhaps I find this a bit comforting. My wife and I make a dual 6 figure income and there's no way I would touch anything over 500k. Otherwise our mortgage- even with a big down payment- would be a lot more than we're paying in rent. Perhaps others are feeling the same and thus the reason why only houses that aren't crazy expensive are selling.

Hysteresis says

rent is cheap

Rent is FAR from cheap... Last I checked rents were at a historic all-time high and increasing.

Rent isn't cheap as it was. Our situation is unique in that we've lived in the same house 9 years with no rent increases. But even if we rented now it wouldn't take much of a house in the BA to suddenly pay a lot more than renting the same house, and that's also after adding in a down payment.

BoomAndBustCycle says

Hysteresis says

rent is cheap

Rent is FAR from cheap... Last I checked rents were at a historic all-time high and increasing.

i wasn't speaking for you. i was speaking for me.

rent -for me- is cheap.

rent is cheap relative to my income, and relative to the cost of housing in my neighborhood (median around $800k).

i suspect, although i haven't looked too deeply, my rent is cheap relative to a lot of the rent prices in the bay area even though i'm in a nice neighborhood. i've had one rent increase in the 6 or 7 years i've been living here.

Anyone got an opinion on Mountain View?

Personally, I think this generation is a little tired of housing as a bubble so I expect the next bubble to be elsewhere. BUT if I did suspect a bubble situation then:

A.5 Buy a house on cheap & easy credit, flip it, make 25%. Rinse and Repeat.

Duh. Absolutely nothing but fantastic things have happened to the people who did this last time EVEN if they acted a fool at the end.

Goran_K says

I will do what wthrfrk80 is doing. Fundamentals will assure that another "bubble" can only be temporary.

I'll not only short, I'll do shorting on margin. Bring it on!

BoomAndBustCycle says

Hysteresis says

rent is cheap

Rent is FAR from cheap... Last I checked rents were at a historic all-time high and increasing.

In the BA rents are way under the ownership costs. By a lot! That makes them cheap when comparing against the alternative of buying.

Hysteresis says

wouldn't do anything different.

1. keep renting

2. keep investing the extra money i save by renting, in stocks and bonds

i make good money. rent is cheap. no reason to change my strategy.

Ditto. I'd probably pick up a few home depot shares cause if people are going to start living in the empty foreclosures they will need to fix them up first. ;)

Hysteresis says

i suspect, although i haven't looked too deeply, my rent is cheap relative to a lot of the rent prices in the bay area even though i'm in a nice neighborhood. i've had one rent increase in the 6 or 7 years i've been living here.

Your situation is the exception to the rule. You must have a very generous landlord.

jessica says

Personally, I think this generation is a little tired of housing as a bubble so I expect the next bubble to be elsewhere. BUT if I did suspect a bubble situation then:

A.5 Buy a house on cheap & easy credit, flip it, make 25%. Rinse and Repeat.

Duh. Absolutely nothing but fantastic things have happened to the people who did this last time EVEN if they acted a fool at the end.

Yes, I too think this generation is tired of housing as a bubble. That said, there are a lot in my generation who graduated college when the dot-com busted and thus we missed that one and then by the time we got decent jobs the housing boom had priced us out. So people like me got double-screwed by bubbles.

Secondly, what I and others have seen and knew is that bubbles inflate and pop. But these cycles take time and don't necessarily result in the desired outcome. I remember all of us bubble watchers assumed the pop would happen- which it did. But what we didn't expect was that prices wouldn't fall to levels that were even close to being that great. The aftermath 6 years into the bust cycle is that places like the BA are still damned-expensive and due to investors buying up all the cheaper stuff it meant the lower priced houses were off-limits and the remnants are basically just so-so houses that are still in the half-million dollar range.

I was in my early 20's when the housing bubble hit. I'm now in my mid-30's. Its taken half a generation for a full cycle of boom and bust to occur. While I am wary of bubbles I can also say that I'm not going to get screwed again and come another bubble, I'll either leave this area or I'll buy something because booms and busts take years and I'm not necessarily willing to wait it out another 10+ years again.

I suppose the good thing about the boom was that it forced us to rent and save for 10 years. We now have a lot of cash and savings. We could very easily go out and buy something now. Had there not been a bubble I might have blown a lot of cash on a house instead.

BoomAndBustCycle says

Hysteresis says

i suspect, although i haven't looked too deeply, my rent is cheap relative to a lot of the rent prices in the bay area even though i'm in a nice neighborhood. i've had one rent increase in the 6 or 7 years i've been living here.

Your situation is the exception to the rule. You must have a very generous landlord.

1 more. My rent has not increased in 4 years - not the only exception.

BoomAndBustCycle says

Your situation is the exception to the rule. You must have a very generous landlord.

I don't think it's all that uncommon for landlords to hold the rents steady for good, long term tenants. I have several paid for single family rental homes in coastal CA and I haven't raised the rents on long term tenants in four years and have no inclination to do it in the near future even though they are rented for under fair market. My lowest priced rental is $2100 a month and the others are are several hundred a month more. The one that rents for $2100 and another one has long term tenants. For whatever reason (renters become buyers in some cases, job changes, etc.) the other homes seem to turn over every few years. I have several friends that are landlords as well and they also have long term tenants that they don't raise the rates every year even though they could.

My properties are paid for and I don't need to squeeze every dollar out of them because I have been very fortunate to have done well over the years. I would rather keep the rent steady for several years for a good, long term tenant that pays on time and doesn't cause me or the management companies any trouble. It cost money to turn over rental homes; advertising, management fees for new tenant, etc.

bubblesitter says

BoomAndBustCycle says

Hysteresis says

i suspect, although i haven't looked too deeply, my rent is cheap relative to a lot of the rent prices in the bay area even though i'm in a nice neighborhood. i've had one rent increase in the 6 or 7 years i've been living here.

Your situation is the exception to the rule. You must have a very generous landlord.

1 more. My rent has not increased in 4 years - not the only exception.

Another. My rent was $1395/month in 1997 and is $1495/month now (month to month, midsize apt. complex in MtV). Spiked up about 15% higher during the .com bubble but came back down afterwards when I complained and has been at this level since 2006.

The downside is that I'd really like to live somewhere with a more intelligent and responsive manager, and less noisy neighbors, but moving to even the same class of apt. around here would cost quite a bit more at this point :-( On the bright side I have her boss' email and can go through him instead for most things.

bubblesitter says

BoomAndBustCycle says

Hysteresis says

i suspect, although i haven't looked too deeply, my rent is cheap relative to a lot of the rent prices in the bay area even though i'm in a nice neighborhood. i've had one rent increase in the 6 or 7 years i've been living here.

Your situation is the exception to the rule. You must have a very generous landlord.

1 more. My rent has not increased in 4 years - not the only exception.

and another. I've had one rent increase in 14 years and when that one happened I just moved. The place sat idle for about 4 months after I moved. That'll teach em.

oddhack says

The downside is that I'd really like to live somewhere with a more intelligent and responsive manager, and less noisy neighbors, but moving to even the same class of apt. around here would cost quite a bit more at this point :-(

And you say homeowners are immobile... All the "exceptions" here appear to be less mobile than they appear, if moving ultimately means a significant rent hike.

RentingForHalfTheCost, if you had bought 14 years ago.. there is no way you'd be underwater.. You'd be halfway done paying off your mortgage.. or 1 year from paying off your mortgage with a 15 year loan.

So RentingForHalfTheCost appears to be bragging that he's paying a "low rent" when if he'd bought 14 years ago with 15 year fixed mortgage.. he'd be a year away from only paying property taxes and maintenance.

BoomAndBustCycle says

And you say homeowners are immobile... All the "exceptions" here appear to be less mobile than they appear, if moving ultimately means a significant rent hike.

Shrug. I don't know what the "rule" is and neither do you, but I expect in general good tenants who've been there for a while will do better rentwise than the Google employee who just has to live 5 minutes from work.

RentingForHalfTheCost, if you had bought 14 years ago.. there is no way you'd be underwater.. You'd be halfway done paying off your mortgage.. or 1 year from paying off your mortgage with a 15 year loan.

I don't know about his situation, but if I'd bought 15 years ago when I moved out here... I wouldn't have bought, because I was flat broke having just left grad school. If I bought a few years later when I had enough cash for the then-standard hefty downpayment... prices had already escalated beyond a sane level in MtV at that time. And that was *before* the real lender shenanigans began.

BoomAndBustCycle says

oddhack says

The downside is that I'd really like to live somewhere with a more intelligent and responsive manager, and less noisy neighbors, but moving to even the same class of apt. around here would cost quite a bit more at this point :-(

And you say homeowners are immobile... All the "exceptions" here appear to be less mobile than they appear, if moving ultimately means a significant rent hike.

i'm hardly immobile.

it just means i'd be paying a higher rent than i do now (which i could afford). i just checked craigslist and apartments in my city are $500 to $900 more than my current rent. i guess i'm getting a good deal.

funny, at the time i signed a lease they were having problems finding tenants and giving a month free. i guess now there's a strong demand.

edvard2 says

If the bubble returns to the BA, what will you do?

What do you mean "returns"? It never left.

BoomAndBustCycle says

Hysteresis says

rent is cheap

Rent is FAR from cheap... Last I checked rents were at a historic all-time high and increasing.

NOTHING here is cheap...food, rent, or anything else. Flight instruction is needlessly expensive. Renting the aircraft itself is ridiculous. Getting a car worked on is higher than it should be.

There's too much money here!

Hysteresis says

And you say homeowners are immobile... All the "exceptions" here appear to be less mobile than they appear, if moving ultimately means a significant rent hike.

Try renting once you have kids and a couple of pets. There's immobility for you.

BoomAndBustCycle says

oddhack says

The downside is that I'd really like to live somewhere with a more intelligent and responsive manager, and less noisy neighbors, but moving to even the same class of apt. around here would cost quite a bit more at this point :-(

And you say homeowners are immobile... All the "exceptions" here appear to be less mobile than they appear, if moving ultimately means a significant rent hike.

RentingForHalfTheCost, if you had bought 14 years ago.. there is no way you'd be underwater.. You'd be halfway done paying off your mortgage.. or 1 year from paying off your mortgage with a 15 year loan.

So RentingForHalfTheCost appears to be bragging that he's paying a "low rent" when if he'd bought 14 years ago with 15 year fixed mortgage.. he'd be a year away from only paying property taxes and maintenance.

Not true at all. My life would be different for sure. However, I would have not been able to live in Switzerland, U.K. , Canada, spent 2 months in Brasil, 1 month in Hawaii, and take almost 2 years off from work to do all the above. A house would have kept me from traveling, and from doing what I love. I would have been indebted to the 30 year note.

Now, 14 years later, I am not behind. Back 14 years ago I would have just barely had the 3.5% down for a BA home. Now, I really don't need a note to get a home. 14 years of savings and investment without the debt of a note has given me that privilege. Obviously, we are all different, but betting on the appreciation of a pile of lumber and nails is not my idea of investing. Did the BA do well in appreciating the wood and nails assets. Sure, but I did better in my investing and these last few years I just lapped every home owner on the track. :)

SubOink says

A 30 year fixed mortgage as laughable as it may seem to you now, is going to be as cheap as it gets.

:)

Fear fear fear. How do you know that the 30 year note couldn't drop another 50% in rate? You don't. Today's 4% could turn into 2% before this free money train turns around. Then home prices could go up for a change. ;)