patrick.net

Bap33 says

all chain style quick lube places may not suck, but the demographic they attract as workers have no business touching anything I own.

I agree with Bap33!

I sent this to a friend who takes their car into one of these chain outfits, all they said was "OK I'll stay away from Jiffy Lube". They didn't proceed to the obvious conclusion that it's probably not unique to that chain.

As the son of an Auto Mechanic and shop owner, I urge all patrick.net members to change their oil regularly. It stuns me how many people plop down 40K on a new car and quibble about the price of an oil change. Most shops including my dads, oil changes are priced at break even. It's still more expensive than jiffy whatever, but an adult will inspect your car and not try and charge you for putting nitrogen in your tires. Find a shop that has a good reputation and specializes in your make of vehicle.

Also don't buy the twin turbocharged all wheel drive version of whatever, your pocket book and mechanic will thank you.

I've always changed my own oil. I think I might have taken my truck to a place once. Anyway, frequency is key. I change mine every 3,000 miles on the dot. Is it necessary? Probably not. But for example I have a 17 year old Toyota truck that's got a little over 250,000 miles on it. I've owned it since new and have always changed the oil every 3,000 miles. The result is that I can remove the filler cap and the underside of the cap is perfectly clean and there's no gunk under the valve cover. The pistons all show factory spec compression. Basically the engine shows hardly any wear and despite its age and mileage could probably go another 250,000 miles no problem.

I have always only used the absolute cheapest oil and oil filters. Just conventional "dino" oil. Again- its about frequency. Doesn't matter if its cheap oil so long as it gets changed more frequently.

I'd also say that changes in emmision and crankcase ventilation systems have helped oil do its job longer and better. For example I also own a 55' Ford Fairlane. Its not a trailer queen and last had an engine overhaul 25 years ago. It doesn't use any oil, but seeing as how the car is "My baby", I change the oil probably every 500-1000 miles. The oil that comes out at change time looks absolutely filthy. Way dirtier than the oil that comes out of the Toyota. Then again the Ford has barely what I'd call a crankcase ventilation system: it has a simple PCV valve that re-feeds the gasses right back into the carburetor. The truck on the other hand has a sophisticated ventilation system and thus the oil stays cleaner.

If you have the 272 in Henry's sedan, it will outlast us all.

Vicente says

I agree with Bap33!

I'm saving this quote to use elsewhere, when it shall be super cool! lol

Changing oil too often (500 miles) is a good way to screw an engine, as oil is very acidic until you have over 500 miles on it. Changing the oil ridiculously often can screw your engine via the acidity that never goes away.

Bap33 says

bob,
totally not argueing with you. You win. I give. You are lord of all things oil!! lol ...

I don't want to be the king of anything. I said very plainly that if you were running flat tappets you would need zinc. That doesn't make low zinc oils suck, it just makes them incorrect for your application, which was my point that you seemed to have missed.

If you want to run race oils without detergent or avgas then go for it. it's your money. Avgas 100 (green) or 100 ll (low lead blue) will run up to about 13:1, but you need to change jets because Avgas is less dense than racing gas (6.3vs5.8 lbs per gallon roughly). Even with changing jets 100ll blue gives crappy throttle response because of high aromatics. If you could find it 115 (purple) it would be a bad choice. The lead content is so high your plugs won't last very long. Airplane engines that used purple had very special plugs and they got changed a lot.

Yes lead lubed the valve seats, but this was more a theoretical problem than practical for street cars.They just don't run hard enough long enough to cause problems. For airplanes and race cars it mattered a lot however. I ran Amoco (american) white gas (which was unleaded) for years before unleaded became mandated on a wide variety of high performance cars and never saw a valve seat chewed up. My SS/B 67 mustang saw hundreds of runs down the dragstrip every year without a problem on white gas and it had the sodium filled exhaust valves.

Lead (actually lead oxide) fouls the oil and will crap up bearings, as well as lots of other things, if you didn't change oil religiously. Dibromoethane was added to leaded gas to convert the lead oxide to lead bromide which went out the exhaust. That was why exhaust systems didn't last very long in the good old days. Not all lead oxide got converted and some always ended up in the oil. I haven't seen a spun bearing in a sub 100k car since unleaded was phased in, it wasn't unusual at all before that.

More interesting is that the average blood levels of lead dropped from 16ug/dl in 1976 to 3 ug/dl in 1991 in the united states. TEL levels above 10ug/dl are considered elevated enough to affect health, IQ, and antisocial behavior. There is strong evidence the drop in violent crime in the 90's is directly tied to this drop in blood levels of TEL.

Something to think about when lamenting the good old days.

Just search the internet for Jiffy Lube Sucks and you will find plenty of reading material.

It is a no brainer to run synthetic for a keeper car.
Superior wear strength, cold start (viscosity) and higher operating temperature over conventional oils.
A turbo runs at >400F, will kill conven oil - cokes it on after the engine is off. It is like cholesterol to turbos. Syn oil takes 450+ and stays on the job. Cold starts and high temp are the oil (and engine) killers.
If Porsches and Corvettes require it for warranty, I trust there engineers did their homework.

unstoppable says

Also don't buy the twin turbocharged all wheel drive version of whatever, your pocket book and mechanic will thank you.

I think you mean your mechanic will thank you for owning one. Mine is 18yrs old and I drive it all the time.
I never take it to a mechanic, it is a hobby.
Make a hard run at night and open the hood, the turbos glow red! The heat kills batteries too.

Zlxr says

In one case the gasket (looks like a washer) had a pinhole in it and the oil only came out while the car was driving. Luckily they kind of smelled the difference when the car stopped - and noticed that the car was running warmer and even though there could have been damage - the car lasted a long time afterwards.

However, unless you want to buy a whole new engine I would recommend you not go to such places. It's not worth it.

Best advice you'll hear today.

I have one guy with his own shop that my cars go to. No issues ever.

marco says

Changing oil too often (500 miles) is a good way to screw an engine, as oil is very acidic until you have over 500 miles on it. Changing the oil ridiculously often can screw your engine via the acidity that never goes away.

You've got it bass akwards. Oil accumulates acids and contaminants the longer its in the engine.

hey folks, this is a good read about oil: http://www.atis.net/oil_faq.html

Wow, watching this made me want to scream! I think I'll just take the bus

bob, everyone used white gas, added a little Marvel Mystery oil to lube the upper end, and even tossed in mothballs for power. Crazy guys even tipped the N can with white gas. But, Marvel was added to lube the top side in my world. Heck, I still put some MMO in the fuel

Spun bearings back in the day had as much to do with the casting and machining of parts, plus the bearing materials of the day, as they did the oils, pumps, and filters of the day, in my opinion. THe more tech that came from racing to the street, the better stuff got. For a SBC, the common spun rod bearing was all but eliminated with good cap bolts and a good torq wrench and a good re-size job. A main bearing that swaps sides and gets really wide and really thin normally happens after a crank and saddle have been FUBAR.

To the GM credit, lets keep in mind what a dealer delivered 69 Z-28 with the 302 could do. A very impressive motor. Smokey's 427 is not a bad motor either.

I see this electric car, non-American Muscle push of today, and it reminds me of the same liberal shit that resulted in the Pinto getting to carry the Cobra and the Mustang badges. A sad sad day for Henry.

Vicente says

I agree with Bap33!

I think that's the first time that's ever happened. History made.

marco says

Changing oil too often (500 miles) is a good way to screw an engine, as oil is very acidic until you have over 500 miles on it. Changing the oil ridiculously often can screw your engine via the acidity that never goes away.

After changing oil, I notice that on the first startup the oil pressure light takes longer to turn off than on normal starts. I guess this is because it takes some time for the oil pump and filter to refill. I try to oil up the filter before reinstalling but it's not perfect. Theoretically I could disconnect the spark plugs and crank the engine a few times, but that seems like overkill. My car gets the oil changed about once per year (every 8000 miles) so that additional wear is minor.

So, changing oil too frequently might add some additional wear. OTOH it's probably negligible, especially in the case where one might change the oil every 1000 miles; a car that's rarely used, and gets the oil changed by months not miles. Leaving used oil in for too long isn't good either, even if the car is not run frequently; water can build up due to condensation or combustion byproducts.

Yeah, I have to say that Dealers aren't necessarily better. I had a Mercedes dealer essentially ruin my transmission - and it wasn't even what they were supposed to be working on. Got them to buy the car from me as compensation.

And a Honda dealer recently failed to seat/tighten the drain plug properly... noticed oil leaking onto my driveway and garage. Luckily hadn't lost enough oil to damage the engine.

Had a Toyota dealer once leave a screw driver in my engine compartment!

kt1652 says

Also don't buy the twin turbocharged all wheel drive version of whatever, your pocket book and mechanic will thank you.
I think you mean your mechanic will thank you for owning one. Mine is 18yrs old and I drive it all the time.
I never take it to a mechanic, it is a hobby.
Make a hard run at night and open the hood, the turbos glow red! The heat kills batteries too.

Believe it or not most mechanics want to see their customers happy, having to explain to a guy that it takes 7 hours of labor to change a timing belt on your amg,m3,rs whatever, because you have to drop the front suspension assembly, is not fun.

I worked for a transmission company to do repairs and service and on many of the transmissions the problems were mostly fouled up filters or a small leak which lowered there fluids causing the transmission fron functioing properly. Once in a while the bands in the transmission had to be adjusted to help the transmission to opperate smoother.If we had a transmission that was not working at all we would send it out for further tests to see if it could be rebuild or the purchase of a new one.
A newq manager took over the shop and on my first day working for him a woman drove in with a problem of the tranny was slipping in and out of drive which I discovered was a low fluid problem but the manager told me to drop the tranny on the floor which would ruin it so he could sell a new tranny to the woman only thing was that the new tranny was not new it was rebuild by his brother that owned a shop that rebuilds trannies.
I needed the job so I did what he asked and after a few days I felt so guilty I quit but not until I got the ladies address and phone no. and told her what happened.

SiO2 says

After changing oil, I notice that on the first startup the oil pressure light takes longer to turn off

Distress reports from General Aviation pilots increase after sunset.
BUT, Metal to metal contact is to be avoided at all costs. Slick 50 saved my assets on several occasions. Cold starting, or starting with a dry filter is slick 50s biggest advantage. The teflon coating on all metal friction surfaces avoids the inadvertent welding.
For $22 every 50k miles, it's like a sore pecker. Ya can't beat it !

slin says

it was rebuild by his brother that owned a shop that rebuilds trannies.

You mean he did addadicktomes ?
Atta boy Slin. Don't think confessing one sin will get you into heaven. You got a way to go. Me too. At One of my first jobs at a fillin station.
My hours were cut because I would not "short stick" the customers to sell oil. Or use a "razor ring" to sell fanbelts.

>

Lead in paint was also outlawed at this same time( lead of course was added to paint in the 40's after biodegradable hempseed oil was outlawed).

And yet some people want to get rid of the EPA?

Slick50 - just use a good oil and change at recommended intervals until warranty runs out. Then do whatever you want, it's your car. But I'd stay away from magic additives.

TMAC54 says

SiO2 says

After changing oil, I notice that on the first startup the oil pressure light takes longer to turn off

The teflon coating on all metal friction surfaces avoids the inadvertent welding.

Who is the honest looking fellow in the picture, is that the evil shop manager or is that you? :-)
My wife had a similar experience, her contour, (sigh, I know) tranny died. Probably due to non-adjstble bone head bands.
So the shop sold her a new tranny. When she picked the car, the drive indicator was so poorly aligned it was like on R.
The shop mngr offered to add a "light" to go on when it is in D!
She being sowhat non-assertive to manly hw just drove it with the light until she bought a new corolla.

slin says

I needed the job so I did what he asked and after a few days I felt so guilty I quit but not until I got the ladies address and phone no. and told her what happened.

Bap33 says

bob, everyone used white gas, added a little Marvel Mystery oil to lube the upper end, and even tossed in mothballs for power. Crazy guys even tipped the N can with white gas. But, Marvel was added to lube the top side in my world. Heck, I still put some MMO in the fuel

Spun bearings back in the day had as much to do with the casting and machining of parts, plus the bearing materials of the day, as they did the oils, pumps, and filters of the day, in my opinion.

I disagree about spun bearings. What back in the days are you talking about? I'm talking late 60's on. I use the exact same clevelite 77 tri metal bearings today as I dd then. The design of bearings hasn't changed since wwII when babbitt bearings were phased out. Casting and machining certainly weren't an issue on production cars of the 60's.

Naptha, Nitro, MMO, now that's pretty funny. I never realized you were a fountain of urban legends.

That's odd what you say about white gas, where I raced in the pre unleaded gas days only a couple other guys used white gas, everyone else used sunoco because the top grade had more octane. Same on the street. Under ss rules I was compression limited so I didn't need the extra octane and preferred a cleaner engine. All the circle track guys used sunoco, I used to pit for some of them so I know that to be true. It's seems strange that you have been non stop extolling the virtues of your use of leaded gas, now you say you used white gas which was unleaded. WTF? I'm confused.

I believe I will just concede to your opinion that lead in gas was wonderful stuff. After all engine life and oil change intervals tripled after it was phased out. Certainly proof positive. Plus it's really even more terrific stuff to paint your childrens toys, playroom, and bedroom with. Bonus points, if you spew enough in the air you also get to enjoy the health benefits of having heavy metals in your bloodstream. Makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise.

It is the nature of service Industry in the states. I worked at Fry's electronics as a sales man. We had to meet a quota of warranties. In 2002, It was like $1400 per week. How the hell can one meet those quotas? Outright lying by saying "we will give you a new laptop/tv/refrigerator, if your product stops functioning". Who will buy such lies? Of course, the salesmen know those prospects.

Sure, you can blame the salesmen. In my opinion, it is not the salesmen, but the corporations themselves. Roland Arnall became a billionaire by encouraging his employees to fake everything. Of course, these corporations never say explicitly--but they put pressure on the folks by mandatory sales training at 6 am. Every salesman learns how to lie by looking at fellow 'successful' salesmen.

One can argue that these sales people should quit their jobs and find another job. Guys, there are no frigging jobs outside of cold calling sales, sales on the floor, door to door sales (recall Kirby salesmen), etc. I applied for a job at Walmart, Mountain View, in 2003; they never called me back: there was and is so much competition for all low wage jobs. In order to make $2000 to $3000 a month in the bay area and LA, one has no choice but to do what is necessary for paying rent, etc.

You know why you were asked to sign up for a credit card/store card when you shop at big chains. These people have quotas to meet like 2 card sign ups per every week. If you don't meet that quota, you will be compared with other employees, who meet that target. Fry's has that: so, employees started signing up fake people: fake/real name, with a fake social security number, just to meet their quotas. Now the management knows the game employees played. The next requirement they put was: name and ssn should match, otherwise the employee would be written up.

Read this interesting article: Confessions of a car salesman

http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/confessions-of-a-car-salesman.html

kt1652 says

her contour, (sigh, I know)

Darn it. How many miles on it when the tranny died?

im never going to a corporate auto chain again

always will deal with small one owner shop that does not advertise. Jiffy Lube can get away with scams, they have billion dollar ad budgets to get more customers.

The small guy can only exist by word of mouth as in 'go to my mechanic he is honest' - he cant advertise in any big way so he has to be honest (mostly!) or go under.

Am i wrong? it seems to be a structural issue of why you get screwed at the big chains and why they continue to get away with it and still make money/stay in business.

bob,

I already said you were king, geeeze man.

where were you in '62 bob? lol

what speed shop was near you?

and what circle track did you pit at? I am a bit of a historian in that depo. I have Racing Wheels going way way back, so I should be able to cross reference this conversation, unless your stories are not west coast based. I hope they are, because that kind of stuff is pretty darn cool. I have National Dragster from long ago too, but only like from 69-70 or so.

anyways bob, I know amoco had non-lead-added blended fuel that was great for compression and it was called white gas. Since you mention health effects, I wonder what the health effects of the chems that were used in place of lead were? THat could be a pretty good story.

and bob, if you were not such a prick about things, I think I would actually like you.

seaside says

kt1652 says

her contour, (sigh, I know)

Darn it. How many miles on it when the tranny died?

I think it had 90-100k, I never saw it.
Believe me, she would have drove that pile off the Fiscal Cliff. She said it kicked her every time she slow downed at the light! But I was tortured by a similar rental Contour from Alabama to New Orleans. The transmission searched btwn gears at 60. If I went faster the 4bangr whined like a cheap hairdryer.

Dan8267 says

elliemae says

econolube

Econolube sounds like the cheap option from a brothel's menu.

Gentle Reader,
Which brothel did you say that was?
Regards,
Roidy

The one where Ruki works.

PockyClipsNow says

im never going to a corporate auto chain again

always will deal with small one owner shop that does not advertise. Jiffy Lube can get away with scams, they have billion dollar ad budgets to get more customers.

The small guy can only exist by word of mouth as in 'go to my mechanic he is honest' - he cant advertise in any big way so he has to be honest (mostly!) or go under.

Am i wrong? it seems to be a structural issue of why you get screwed at the big chains and why they continue to get away with it and still make money/stay in business.

That's pretty much how auto chain stores get by. If you have a problem and complain to the corporate off they say "that's an independent franchise, we can't do anything".

kt1652 says

Who is the honest looking fellow in the picture, is that the evil shop manager or is that you? :-)
My wife had a similar experience, her contour, (sigh, I know) tranny died. Probably due to non-adjstble bone head bands.
So the shop sold her a new tranny. When she picked the car, the drive indicator was so poorly aligned it was like on R.
The shop mngr offered to add a "light" to go on when it is in D!

Most transmission shops are con artists. They can't fix a transmission, so they standard line is that all cars that come in always need a new transmission, even if it only needs a small part. There is way more profit in that, and people are gullible enough to believe it.

I have a 1995 Ford Escort with ~208,500 miles on it on it's original automatic transmission, and that's in Baltimore - Washington DC traffic. Right now it needs a shift solenoid which I will eventually get around to replacing, but so far I have only changed out the fluid and filter and did a TSB update (20 minute job to replace a spring and valve in the externally mounted transmission oil pump), and I have adjusted the transmission oil pressure (it uses an external cable). Once I replace the solenoid, it will work perfectly again. Most people don't maintain their automatic transmission properly and at the first sign of trouble the incorrectly assume that they need a new one. They often end up at a shop that does shoddy work or really just repairs the existing one, then cleans it and charges them for a rebuild.

kt1652 says

I think it had 90-100k, I never saw it.
Believe me, she would have drove that pile off the Fiscal Cliff. She said it kicked her every time she slow downed at the light! But I was tortured by a similar rental Contour from Alabama to New Orleans. The transmission searched btwn gears at 60. If I went faster the 4bangr whined like a cheap hairdryer.

Thanks.
You know, ford contour, mercury mistique and mercury cougar has the same platform(cdw27), the same tranny(cd4e auto) and even the engine choice is the same. All have been discontinued. Two people I knew that bought cougar/contour right after I got mine did not have them any more. Tranny failure. Both of them at arround 80K. Mine has 125K so far. Tranny is... well... not dead yet, getting kind of weird though. Only 3K in this year because of that, and now I am using it as a grocery getter.

kt1652 says

Slick50 - just use a good oil and change at recommended intervals until warranty runs out. Then do whatever you want, it's your car. But I'd stay away from magic additives.

I had also heard of hundreds of "additives", but when I learned the FAA approved the Slick 50 "treatment" I tested it about five different ways. It actually makes an immediate significant improvement.

Redlines at 11,000.

http://www.skepdic.com/slick50.html

TMAC54 says

kt1652 says

Bap33 says

where were you in '62 bob? lol

what speed shop was near you?

and what circle track did you pit at?

Not driving in 62, started in 69. started helping with race cars 2 years before I started driving. Pitted at wall stadium, wall nj, plus others around the area (flemington, new egypt, orange country, etc.) when my buddies traveled. The only team I helped out with that you would have heard of was the Blewitts, one of the grandsons was a big nascar guy but got killed a couple years ago. I raced myself at Raceway Park, englishtown NJ as my home track as well as many other tracks around the area (atco, lebanon vly , maple grove, us 13) in SS then bracket racing. Haven't been on a track since 89 when I got very seriously into windsurfer racing. More girls, less money, clean fingernails.

Sorry if calling nonsense, nonsense makes me a prick.

kt1652 says

http://www.skepdic.com/slick50.html

http://www.skepdic.com/comments/slickcom.html
As an empirical test, we also took three ordinary saloon cars to Mallory Park racing circuit. Two had been given the Slick 50 treatment. On arrival all three had the engine oil drained from the sump and were then driven around the circuit at a steady 50 mph. I recall that the untreated engine seized up within one mile, but the other two lapped continuously for 50 untroubled laps - one was being driven by rally champion Roger Clark.

I owned a small fleet of taxi cabs and occasionally a driver would continue driving after a water hose or freeze plug or something popped. Slick 50 saved those motors. For $20.00 It's cheap insurance for your family as well. Another test, Finished 6 laps of a race on a 3/8 mile dirt oval (Baylands, Fremont) with a Chevy 350. On accident, I left the radiator cap loose. The water temp was pegged. The motor got so hot it finally burnt a hole in the top of one piston. NO WEAR SURFACES WERE GAULED. Also; The layer of teflon is too thin to plug up any galley ways. I got over 250K miles out of each taxi motor.

Lets give you the benefit of the doubt that the unlubricated engine test was valid. It proves nothing in regards to long term wear reduction on bearing surfaces. They are two different types of stresses.

No oil in engine - there is no oil film anymore. There is metal to metal grinding. This is a gear test. Teflon is actually good as a gear oil additive. I wont even add it to my gear box, since synthetic gear oil is plenty good enough there.

FTC took them to task with their claims of reduced engine wear.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/07/slick.shtm

I cant think of a single reason why they'd settle by paying $10M in penalties and crapped on their credibility. $10M can run a lot of testing to vindicate their claims.
Slick50 is never going into my twin turbo DOHC 24valve.