patrick.net

thomas.wong1986 says

bob2356 says

Your idea of taxes paid is the estimated taxes sent in . Is this a joke? Taxes paid is the number after the year is closed and all additional taxes or refunds are processed.

"Estimated"quarterly tax payment... is no different for Corps as it is for any other taxable entity including individuals... Your estimate is due each quarter with the final true up 100% payment due at year end. You can be sure there are no free rides!

So in your utopian world no business ever overpays and gets refunds? If a corp sends in money quarterly it is all considered "paid" even if a big chunk comes back for various reasons. Bullshit. It's not "paid" until the year is closed, the numbers are finalized, the tax return is finished, and all the amounts settled pure and simple. Until that point you are just banking money involuntarily with the IRS against your tax liability.

There are plenty of free rides. That's why the tax code has 75,000 pages. You don't think any special tax breaks are in it? Every single time there is a tax break for someone it's a free ride that everyone else has to pay for. You are claiming to be an accountant? Really?? Where at Nigeria? Somalia?

sbourg says

The world would be a much worse place if not for us. But we've lost our economic power and vitality (Jeff Daniels has no clue about why) in large part because our federal govt has become as big and economically-reckless as those of Europe. So we're all in trouble Jeff. And it's NOT because Democrats don't win enough elections. Dolt.

Can I double like?

bob2356 says

So in your utopian world no business ever overpays and gets refunds? If a corp sends in money quarterly it is all considered "paid" even if a big chunk comes back for various reasons. Bullshit. It's not "paid" until the year is closed, the numbers are finalized, the tax return is finished, and all the amounts settled pure and simple. Until that point you are just banking money involuntarily with the IRS against your tax liability.

Not sure how you can deny that tax payers be they individuals or corporate dont pay quarterly income tax. They do and its pretty final, any overpayment is simply a ledger entry. The govt does keep it.
As far as refunds! they occur due to losses carry back 2 years and thus get a refund due to restated and claimed losses. There are no refunds in the current year...

As for 37,000 pages of the tax code.. frankly needs to reindexed.. much of the code has already been nullified and voided over the years with new laws... that is a red herring, and has no meaning... The actual active IRS tax code is much much smaller than the 1000 of pages.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=110413,00.html/
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1120w.pdf

bob2356 says

Every single time there is a tax break for someone it's a free ride that everyone else has to pay for.

Tax break ?

Couples get a tax break for the rug rats they produce..
so shouldnt that "tax break" be repealed ?

But do you ever hear many in an uproar over that ? No!

http://www.kiplinger.com/features/archives/2007/01/childtaxopedia.html

CaptainShuddup says

Can I double like?

The problem with voting to degrees is that such systems would be abused by people trying to wring as much support for their side by always voting high on any issue that even slightly agree with.

In order for such a system to work, you'd have to give a limit amount of "vote power" to each individual and let that individual divide up his vote power. By doing so, an individual can only vote high (strongly) in one issue by voting low (weakly) on other issues.

You also need to cap the max voting power an individual can contribute to one issue to prevent manipulators from pooling all their voting power to a small set of issues.

In short, such a voting system can be done, but it takes a lot more effort than binary voting in order to prevent manipulation.

sbourg says

factual idiocy

Did he get any fact wrong?

Patrick - Yes, see my post above for the only one I fact checked, which was wrong. According to Wiki based on one source U.S. ranks 34th in infant mortality, on another, 45th. This is before, as per the info. in Wiki, one takes into account that this isn't an apples to apples comparison, the U.S. applies a different/tougher standard to its infant mortality statistics than many other countries do.

And Newsroom/Sorkin/Daniels said U.S. ranks 178th in infant mortality - that wrong by a huge magnitude. And casts doubt on the rest of the reeled-off "facts".

Dan8267 says

In short, such a voting system can be done, but it takes a lot more effort than binary voting in order to prevent manipulation.

Yeah, it's called "one dollar, one vote", and it's the 'democracy' of the United States of America.
You vote "like" every time you buy something. The only "dislike" vote is one you get to make every 2 or 4 years, and that one is usually split almost equally with people who don't know the difference, and some who do know, but like their position in it.

thomas.wong1986 says

Not sure how you can deny that tax payers be they individuals or corporate dont pay quarterly income tax. They do and its pretty final, any overpayment is simply a ledger entry. The govt does keep it.
As far as refunds! they occur due to losses carry back 2 years and thus get a refund due to restated and claimed losses. There are no refunds in the current year...

I hope your accounting is clearer than your writing. This is a muddle. You say that there are never refunds for individuals or corporations, they are just accounting entries, the government keeps it. Then you say there are refunds but not the current year. WTF?

So without your usual equivocation you are saying the IRS never issues a tax refund check to a corporation? Ever? I would like to see some documentation on that.

I hope your accounting is better than your reading skills. I never denied quarterly tax payments were made, just whether these payments represent actual taxes paid which they don't. It's an involuntary escrow account against tax liabilities.

My point is if someone sends the IRS $1000 (or any number it doesn't matter) for the year then gets the $1000 refunded for some reason then they didn't pay taxes. Sending money then getting it back is NOT paying taxes in my mind. If a corporation sends $1000 for the year then has a loss for the year and the $1000 is refunded (or credited to another year it does not matter) then the company did not pay taxes for that year. Period. The $1000 is not the taxes paid. I don't see how you are denying this, but somehow you manage.

thomas.wong1986 says

Couples get a tax break for the rug rats they produce..
so shouldnt that "tax break" be repealed ?

Whether it should be repealed or not has absolutely nothing to do with your statement there are no free rides. Please try to stay on topic and focus. Is this or is this not a tax break aka a free ride? Is someone paying less than someone else? Yes or no? Any tax law or regulation that makes an exception is a free ride for someone at the expense of someone else.

Whether the tax code is 37,000 or 75,000 pages or has dead sections it still contains thousands of tax breaks written in by well bribed politicians. If there is one it's too many.

You are actually working as an accountant? In America?

thomas.wong1986 says

No, i am an accountant and pointing out to the poor journalism even from the NYT. I doubt even the Finance Staff (Accounting and Tax Department ) working in the NYT would believe in the crap the journalist spew out.

I suggest you speak to a CPA you meet to get a better understanding the differences between SEC vs IRS reporting in regards to Corp taxes. You will find its all politics at the end.

Well shame on the NYT then.

Ruki says

1) Jeff Daniels is acting.

2) Jeff Daniels is acting in a fictional drama.

Obey The Tripods

Which viewers - including, apparently (?), Patrick - will tend to believe that, although the characters and personal situations are fictional, the "facts" that come out of their mouths are just that, which, as I have shown above, is not correct. It's like John Stewart, where the audience knows the jokes are jokes, but many don't realize the setup/facts are biased/slanted/wrong.

In ep 2, Daniels' (fictional!) producer, who has previously vowed with Daniels to do a great unbiased fair and balanced type newscast focusing on information of relevance to voters, and has vowed additionally to present the best argument for each side of an issue, declares, unilaterally, there is no best argument for the "birther" issue. To which, I say, BS: Here it is: Given the enormity of the job and the constitutional requirements, all presidential candidates should have to present a birth certificate as proof of their eligibility for the ballot and job.

Patrick: Good God, you disagree with CapnShuddup and me, because you think the country is messed up because the govt doesn't confiscate the property and wealth that is inherited? That makes you a marxist, AND an economic-illiterate. You don't understand why Jeff Daniels' Hollywood speech is pure idiocy and factually false?
For one, it's insane (one of his first comments) the statement that people don't like Liberal Democrats because they LOSE elections! Patrick, they won SO MUCH that begining 7/1/09 they had Obama, Pelosi and Reid with 60 votes!!!!!! It doesn't get more WIN than that! And Patrick, they failed miserably.......but strategically to sucker people like YOU to vote for them again and again! They could have passed the high taxes on the upper 1% or .1%.......but they didn't. Why? Because they wanted to keep the 'slogan' for '12..........which they did and now they're using. To sucker people like you to vote for them again. You're the biggest sucker marxist, class warfare dolt thinking it would actually help the economy! Then why aren't you rip-roaring mad/pissed off at Obamao for not passing the crap you think would help the country? Let's just see how that works in France.......Hollande should be your hero. He's passing the crap YOU want passed. Let's watch as France descends into fiscal hell. It will happen Patrick. Watch. And it's happening in the other PIIGS countries because they are Keynesian utopian nightmares of big govt spending and we're headed there too...... cuz of voters like you. Way to go Patrick. I hope you don't care about the next generation, or even your next 30 years of economic freedom and vitality.....cuz Obamao and big govt is a dismal selection you're making.

sbourg,

If you want to live in aristocracy, where a few people control the labor of everyone else, fine.

But many of us do not.

If that makes me a "Marxist", then fine.

Auntiegrav says

Hell, Obama is the best actual REPUBLICAN since Clinton (see "Free Trade Deals" or "Corporate-Friendly Policies").
That's a stretch, though, since every candidate is the Corporatist candidate: "Republican" or "Democrat" is just an App that changes the color of the bus they drive.
Maybe by "massive federal gov't" you meant, "common decency", and by "earn", you mean "accumulate resources so that anybody else who wants them has to pay ME".

Auntie Grav: You're delusional if you think Obama is on the side of corporate America. He's destoying the sectors he doesn't like (traditional energy, coal, gas, health insurance, big-pharma) and assisting the sectors he needs (banking, hollywood, green energy). He's one helluva pathetic president.

Auntiegrav says

Dan8267 says

In short, such a voting system can be done, but it takes a lot more effort than binary voting in order to prevent manipulation.

Yeah, it's called "one dollar, one vote", and it's the 'democracy' of the United States of America.

The voting system I described relies on everyone having equal "voting power" or "dollars" as you put it. As such, voting with your wealth in America isn't the same thing. Only a tiny minority has the wealth to really vote with dollars in our country.

Wthrfrk80? What the heck are you talking about? Seriously.

" A few people control the labor of everyone else" ??? Really???

There are about 5,000 companies listed on the NASDAQ, controlled by Boards of Directors of 10s of thousands of people........and then there are scores of thousands of smaller companies employing scores of millions more people.

Do you mean you want property, land, wealth confiscated by the federal govt so that business owners who die (sometimes prematurely) will have their holdings confiscated by the federal govt? Man, I don't believe I'm dealing with patrick.net readers who were born in America. This is insane how marxist and economically illiterate you people are. This would not only be against what our Constitution was about.......it would not work from an economic standpoint. I myself would move to Bermuda, and I'm not even wealthy. Only govt workers would be 'wealthy' by net worth of pension and health-care.

Jeezus Wthrfrk80......it sounds like you don't even believe in 'private property' rights. You might prefer President Hollande in France, the socialist voters made him the new leader, you know. Private property of paycheck will end, as the govt wants 75% of paychecks for 'wealthy' earners.
That will end badly Wthrfrk80.
And so will our (your) country under Obama if you get him elected again for 4 more years. I'll feel like moving as soon as kids are done with college. Our country is moving more semi-socialist by the year, but doesn't seem fast enough for you.

sbourg says

There are about 5,000 companies listed on the NASDAQ, controlled by Boards of Directors of 10s of thousands of people........and then there are scores of thousands of smaller companies employing scores of millions more people.

And owned directly, and indirectly (via IRAs, 401ks, pensions) by millions.

Whenever people complain, 'corporations aren't people,' I always say, 'What else are they composed of?'

thomas.wong1986 says

And you're entitled to 15% tax rate on dividends and capital gains, which make up nearly all the income of the very rich, while people who actually work hard and earn a lot of income from their own efforts pay 28%. This guarantees that the rich continue to accumulate all assets faster than everyone else, widening the wealth gap in every generation.

Dividends earned after multitude of OTHER taxes paid on the ownership of a business... Payroll Employee/er, Property taxes, Business Tax, Fed/State/Foreign tax and collect/report sales taxes.. Its alot more envolved than just a simple tax rate on dividend.

No way. However you get your money you pay part of it in taxes and then it's yours. If you invest it and make more money off of that investment, then that is brand spanking new income. The whole idea of "double taxation" is hogwash. Investors to should feel very fortunate to be able to get even more money without having to actually work for it.

sbourg,

Your logical fallacy is:

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

sbourg says

Private property of paycheck will end, as the govt wants 75% of paychecks for 'wealthy' earners.

You mean kind of like we had under that radical socialist Dwight D. Eisenhower?

Ruki says

Reminds me of when I went to see Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Slayer. All through the film I kept thinking, "Thanks to our piss-poor education system, a LOT of people are actually going to actually believe that vampires were behind slavery and the Civil War" much for the same reasons.

Kind of. Abe Lincoln Vampire Slayer (who thought of this thing!?), although I have yet to see it, I doubt has an agenda other than to make money. Sorkin and The Newsroom has a liberal agenda he wants to pound through everyone's skull (or so it seemed to me, none too subtle), although I'm sure he wants to make money, too.

wthrfrk80 says

How many people did that 90% top rate affect?* We also had an enormous worldwide competitive advantage post-WW 2 - it was only through beneficence we didn't take over the world, no one was close, most of the rest of the world was pre-industrial or in a shambles.

* Was there an AMT snagging the middle class? Did CA's top tax rate kick in at only around $40K of AGI?

Ruki says

Reminds me of when I went to see Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Slayer. All through the film I kept thinking, "Thanks to our piss-poor education system, a LOT of people are actually going to actually believe that vampires were behind slavery and the Civil War" much for the same reasons.

Ignatius Pugg says

If you invest it and make more money off of that investment, then that is brand spanking new income.

there is a difference between earning income from an asset and selling that asset..

the whole purpose of lower capital gains is if you buy more assets (like machinery, factories or savings using stocks) is it produces exponential income for many others. So you get special tax treatment like depreciation, capital gains, and other benefits vs ordinary income.

Show me the relation between capital gains rates and economic growth in the last 60 years. I can't find any.

bob2356 says

Show me the relation between capital gains rates and economic growth in the last 60 years. I can't find any.

When the biggest drop occurred in the early 80s there was a spike in growth. And the Reagan worshipers will tell you it was because of that and other tax decreases.

I personally think it was because interest rates were dropping hard, from being in the stratosphere. This is the monetary equivalent of taking your foot off the brake and punching the accelerator all at once.

What a wonderful time to be president, when interest rates were dropping like that.

WThrFrk80: Eisenhower did not pass/sign the tax rate increases......FDR was the architect of class-warfare and federal govt power-grabs. For you to imply that high marginal income tax rates in the 1950s were a factor causing the economy to perform well in the '50s......is hypothetical, unsupported conjecture. The boom in the '50s was due to many factors. And by the way, the 75% marginal tax rates for income were applied at income of over $2million in current dollars. Thus, essentially no one bothered to get crushed like that, and tax avoidance schemes were the norm at those high levels.
I did NOT set you and patrick up with strawman arguments. I am amused by you dolts wanting to tinker with the tax code for more 'fairness' against higher-paids... amused in a certain way that amazes me because you dolts are suckers for Obama/Pelosi/Reid who could have passed any of their class-warfare agenda beg July 2009 when the 60th Senate seat was taken by Al Franken. They could have passed any of their 'wish list' of higher tax rates. And you dolts don't even care that they didn't, or wonder why they didn't. I'll tell you why they didn't. Because of 2 reasons: 1) They were not confident it would help the economy, and 2) They might as well 'save' the issue for Nov 2012 election to use it for the masses of economic illiterates, to get their votes......saying what's 'fair', why rates should be higher.....all that lying when they could have put their 'fair' rates in place in late 2009 with EASE. But they didn't and you're still clamoring for higher rates and you'll vote for them again. They suckered you. Period. That's my argument. Refute it if you can. My guess is you cannot, not with any type of logical argument.

Given Americas obsession with the rich and famous, Jeff Daniels is wrong; America IS the greatest country in the world for him.

Good point StoutFiles! You could even say the U.S. is the greatest country in the world for ALL of Hollywood's actors! And most of them don't realize it. And if they knew more about economics they wouldn't have put so much of their money in real estate.......Nicholas Cage is exhibit A.

The Truth is, the Liberals tried to make this the crappiest country in the world, per Jeff Daniels. Though out the late 09's and early 2000's they bombarded our preteens with the worlds most dangerous thugs and criminals serenading them with anthems of drugs, prostitution, pimping and killing. There will be a whole generation of lost Idiots, those that aren't in prison or on death row, will be relegated to a life of menial jobs at best but most likely welfare and food stamps for most, prepped for the ghetto life they worshiped through out their youth. Then there's those that went to college, and have no idea what to do with Education. So they pitch tents in the parks and shake their fist at the very establishment they studied to participate in. This is the type of constituents that behooves the Left. Out of sight out of the polling booths.

But all is not lost, luckily the Nth generation after them have been repulsed by their actions. And for the first time in American pop culture the youth are reverting back to 2 and even 3 generations back. Going back to roots, listening to classic rock music as if they were born 20 years too late. And these kids are also stand up citizens, free critical thinkers, and question authority. Like the Fired Florida lifeguard Tomas Lopez, that valued human life more than his 7.95 an hour job and pay check, ignoring his clueless asshole boss and saved a drowning man from the treacherous seas off Hallandale Florida.

There's hope in these kids, and they aren't all touchy feely on the Liberal endocrine. God bless them, God bless their insubordinate little hearts.

JG1 says

We also had an enormous worldwide competitive advantage post-WW 2 - it was only through beneficence we didn't take over the world, no one was close, most of the rest of the world was pre-industrial or in a shambles.

That sounds like a good argument for raising taxes on the top 0.1%, since they have benefited enormously from shipping our entire industrial sector overseas. Now it is America that is "pre-industrial." Our only remaining industries are health care rackets, financial speculation, and fast food.

marcus says

I personally think it was because interest rates were dropping hard, from being in the stratosphere. This is the monetary equivalent of taking your foot off the brake and punching the accelerator all at once.

The inflation rate was also sky high in the early 80's. The real interest rate is the nominal interest rate minus the inflation rate.

bob2356 says

Show me the relation between capital gains rates and economic growth in the last 60 years. I can't find any.

bob, how dare you challenge an ideology with facts! ;-)

CaptainShuddup says

Though out the late 09's and early 2000's they bombarded our preteens with the worlds most dangerous thugs and criminals serenading them with anthems of drugs, prostitution, pimping and killing.

Oh, so ghetto culture and easy money to be made that was made with hip hop, that's the fault of liberals ? You have to be kidding.

How can you possibly make that connection ?

I too welcome hip hop finally getting boring to this current generation for reasons that have to do only with the fact that it's boring if it's what pop has been your whole life. Kids want to have their own thing.

Appreciation of classic rock among a certain percentage of kids has been fairly constant for decades. Of course some kids are going to look back and find music they like. This is no different now than 5 or ten years ago, and was bigger in the days of "alternative."

What's popular now, is not hip hop, but it's pretty bad for the most part, and of course it can't compete with the talent that was around in the 60s - 80s.

Here check out the top ten.
http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100#/charts/hot-100

No hip hop, I hate that usher type crap. The only one I really like is #3 "somebody that I used to know." Creative, and interesting. The rest ?
Hardly tolerable to my ear, and not because they are breaking new ground that I can't relate to

wthrfrk80 says

bob2356 says

Show me the relation between capital gains rates and economic growth in the last 60 years. I can't find any.

bob, how dare you challenge an ideology with facts! ;-)

Sorry, I forgot the right wingnut rules of debate. It's how you feel about an issue that matters. Repeat how you feel enough times and it's truth. I will try restrain myself from the introduction of actual facts into the discussion in the future.

marcus says

But when borrowing became cheaper for all businesses ? You don't think that had a bit of an impact ?

But did borrowing become cheaper? Remember, high inflation is good if you are in debt. Sure, interest rates went down, but so did inflation.

Ignatius Pugg says

No way. However you get your money you pay part of it in taxes and then it's yours. If you invest it and make more money off of that investment, then that is brand spanking new income. The whole idea of "double taxation" is hogwash. Investors to should feel very fortunate to be able to get even more money without having to actually work for it.

The estate or death tax on the other hand, you will concede, is pure double taxation, right?

And based on that logic, how come I have to pay property tax on my house? I'm not making any money from it by holding it in a stable or even possibly declining market, and by living in it.

wthrfrk80 says

bob2356 says

Show me the relation between capital gains rates and economic growth in the last 60 years. I can't find any.

bob, how dare you challenge an ideology with facts! ;-)

Do you honestly believe that taxing something produces more of it? Because I think it's pretty Econ. 101 that that isn't true. In fact, the government purposely taxes things it wants less of, like smoking, alcohol, gas guzzlers. In other words, there are a lot of factors going on behind the numbers in those graphs other than just the two displayed.

JG1 says

And based on that logic, how come I have to pay property tax on my house? I'm not making any money from it by holding it in a stable or even possibly declining market, and by living in it.

Because the value of your house depends on expensive infrastructure like roads, fire & police protection, schools, and garbage pickup.

That's why RE is a terrible investment. Unless you are a landlord looking for rental income.