patrick.net

FortWayne says

See the resemblance?

No.

Now the social security system, on the other hand...

wthrfrk80 says

I have a hard time believing NPR would advocate such a thing. If they did, shame on them.

Dude you should tune in some time.
You folks like to chalk people for being pissed off, as to listening to too much Rush or Fox news. You want to get outraged, spend an hour in stop and go rush hour traffic listening to all things considered and fresh air.

Though truth be told I only listen to hear that Scottish contributor from the BBC, with the thick nasal Sottish accent. Secretly I keep hoping he'll say...
"If it's not Scottish it's CRAP!"

wthrfrk80 says

What do lower standards and messages about "equality, entitlements and diversity" have to do with securing federal funding? Schools are generally funded at the state and local level are they not?

A lot of funding is tied to graduation rates. So bureaucrats lower the standards so they can keep the union bosses happy, graduate few more morons, and everyone pretends the system is fine.

FortWayne says

Because No, standards shouldn't be low. Deadbeats are not entitled to a diploma upon birth. Diplomas are reserved for those who can demonstrate certain ability.

I completely agree. That's why I'm against compulsory public education beyond 8th grade. Deadbeats are deadbeats. Send them to the military or directly to prison (no, I'm not being sarcastic on this one).

FortWayne says

This is why so many teachers end up taking anti depressants when they see how this system screws children, and how badly this society gets fucked by it.

So why are you attacking teachers for making too much money?

FortWayne says

A lot of funding is tied to graduation rates.

Is that true? If so, that's insane. Agreed.

Pat McGroin Im Irish says

One of my best friends retired at the age of 54 (30 years) from teaching in Chicago. He lives on a golf course, drives a new Lexus every year, and has a luxury Bus where he vacations to CA in the winters. His pension. He receives a check for $9,000 every month. Why is this right? It's not, but hey, he was in a Chicago union and they are the best at screwing the taxpayers.

This is a lie.

marcus says

The average teacher puts in at least 50 hours per week.

Marcus, that's based on what they (teachers, or as I call them disinformation facilitators) self-report.

It's like asking teenager guys if they have sex - 90% do, 70% with Pamela Anderson.

FortWayne says

The low standards, someone did lobby for that

It's impossible to describe the degree to which you don't know what you're talking about. It's the most absurd thing that's been said in this entire thread.

It would take someone like Rush, or Glenn or you FW to get from lobbying against testing kids to death, to lobbying for low standards.

Look up "common core standards" soon most districts in the country will actually be using the same (or similar standards) for many reasons, including the fact that if someone moves from one state to antoher, they can expect very simila curriculum.

You might hear years ago of unions lobbying against standardization in and of itself, because they wanted to be trusted to teach well and not be given a prescribed (scripted) canned curriculum. Or you might have heard teachers lobbying against excessive testing.

Both of these are a far cry from lobbying for lower standards. I really do despise the propaganda sellers who say this stuff, and know that there are people out there stupid enough to buy it.

AlexS says

Marcus, that's based on what they (teachers, or as I call them disinformation facilitators) self-report.

You don't think teachers spend 50 hours per week, mainly filling out bullshit paperwork?

Teachers aren't lazy. They have one of the worst jobs in the world.

That said, I think the public school system is a joke. But its not the fault of teachers.

Without parental involvement, children aren't going to do the work necessary to learn.

marcus says

This is a lie.

Probably but can you be sure sure without a lot more info? Given the way systems can be gamed I would not be surprised to discover a very lucky few were able to make out like bandits. For all you know its hush money to keep him quiet about the superintendent and the 4H sheep

AlexS says

Marcus, that's based on what they (teachers, or as I call them disinformation facilitators) self-report.

I'm a teacher and I put in way more than 50 hours a week. I'll grant you that the 3:07pm - 5:30 pm is not the most productive, whether it be meetings or me working in my room, because I'm kind of burnt out at that time of day. And then there's additional work I take home, which either get's done that night, or becomes more after school work for the next day.

No I said 50 hrs average to factor in PE teachers and others that work a little under 40. I know teachers that put in over 70 because of all the different things they take on, and just the way they are.

wthrfrk80 says

Without parental involvement, children aren't going to do the work necessary to learn.

Hear, hear. I had two parents who would have died of shame if I'd dropped out of high school and wouldn't let me blow off schoolwork (and I was certainly lazy and shortsighted enough to have done it if I could have gotten away with it). That made more of a difference than any of my teachers.

New renter says

I would not be surprised to discover a very lucky few were able to make out like bandits

Some do. But that story is obviously BS, especially if the teacher was actually in Chicago. If they were in one of the highest paying suburbs? Even then, I just don't see it at 54. 64 sure. If he wanted to make up some slightly more believable BS, he should have said 64.

It's interesting to me that the same kind of person that wants to rant against teachers is the type that just makes up some lie to drive their point home.

New renter says

For all you know its hush money to keep him quiet about the superintendent and the 4H sheep

lol. I'm not sure which would be worse: the 4H sheep or the 9th grade cheerleaders.

bdrasin says

Hear, hear. I had two parents who would have died of shame if I'd dropped out of high school and wouldn't let me blow off schoolwork (and I was certainly lazy and shortsighted enough to have done it if I could have gotten away with it). That made more of a difference than any of my teachers.

Absolutely. Why do you think the Asian kids do so well? It isn't the teachers.

It's a race to the bottom for America. Hang on.

wthrfrk80 says

Teachers aren't lazy. They have one of the worst jobs in the world.

How is their job worst than that of roofers? Cab drivers? Alaska fishermen? Enough of this sobbing already, and let's call spade a spade. Also keep in mind that thanks to roofers we have roof over our heads, tx to cabbies we can get to work and airport on time, and tx to fisherman we can eat fish - and their failure rate of delivery is much lower than teachers (50%+ of graduating kids can't read or do simple math)

Public school (just as everything government) is a joke. It's just an expensive babysitting arrangement. YOu are right, it's not just teachers, but also "administrators" and other overhead (50% in public schools, only 10% in private schools), and the whole system.

Also, plz save the "without parental involvement" comment - both parents are out working to pay the insane taxes (including income, payroll, state, local, sales, property, user fees, and INFLATION tax, and gazillion more). Nowadays it is almost impossible for family to survive on single income, hence another parent can't spend time with kids.

True example of government breaking your kneecaps, giving you crutches and saying - see without us you wouldn't be able to walk.

AlexS says

How is their job worst then that of roofers? Cab drivers? Alaska fishermen?

Roofers, fisherman, and cab drivers, don't get a lot of people slandering that they are "layabouts" who smoke cigars in the lounge between their long summer breaks. Teachers get a lot of UNDESERVED crap thrown on them, and you wonder why they don't stick with it longer..... I had a commercial fisherman buddy, who used to spend a pretty fair amount time on dry land drinking and partying, but I never heard people denigrating his "undeserved" time off.

Vicente says

Teachers get a lot of UNDESERVED crap thrown on them, and you wonder why they don't stick with it longer.....

Again, enough of this crap already. Teachers whine the most about being underpaid and overworked. No one, NOT ANYONE, no other single profession whines more than teachers. Not even privates stuck in sandbox 5,000+ miles away whine more than teachers. And when they are not whining about being underpaid, they whine about how they are not in it for the money...

AlexS says

Not even privates stuck in sandbox 5,000+ miles away whine more than teachers.

I'd like to see you QUANTIFY that.

Military in my family EXCEL AT COMPLAINTS about everything from VA hospitals to the shoes and food. But it's probably because they are stuck in a socialist system where the government is their Mom & Dad. Strange the Republicans haven't moved to abolish all that Federal Socialism in the military.

YMMV.

marcus says

Some do. But that story is obviously BS, especially if the teacher was actually in Chicago. If they were in one of the highest paying suburbs? Even then, I just don't see it at 54. 64 sure. If he wanted to make up some slightly more believable BS, he should have said 64.

Most people just lump the Chicago area together as "Chicago" My cousin with the 6 figure pension retired in her 60's worked in Highland Park district. I forget what she told me they spent per child, but it was huge. Also people should keep in mind when they see a retired teacher driving new luxury cars that like other people many teachers have other income and sometimes other jobs.

AlexS says

It's just an expensive babysitting arrangement.

"This September, public schools provided almost 70 percent of the students entering Harvard"

That was 2009
http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/harvarddean-part5/

I read elsewhere that 68% of the class of 2015 are from public schools.

AlexS says

Also, plz save the "without parental involvement" comment

Nobody is arguing that it isn't tough these days, but still it's a big factor. Although, I think those students who have the really great combination of high aptitude and work ethic are no longer responding to parental pressure by the time they are in high school. Those habits are formed very early, and I think for some kids it just happens without even unusual involvement on the parent's part.

rdm says

My cousin with the 6 figure pension retired in her 60's worked in Highland Park district.

That's very believable, because it's highland park and because she was in her sixties.

AlexS says

It's just an expensive babysitting arrangement......Nowadays it is almost impossible for family to survive on single income, hence another parent can't spend time with kids.

I know plenty of people with one spouse and often kids at home. Some are doing home schooling. Surprised you think it's impossible to do? Why? Do these people know some trick you don't? One for example the husband is a paper-shuffler in the prison system and is below $40K, and the wife stays at home other than some church work. Perhaps it's because they don't have a McMansion and 3 Escalades in the driveway like you?

Of course VERY few of these kids win Nobel prizes or become CEO or SC judges but that's another topic.

AlexS says

It's like asking teenager guys if they have sex - 90% do, 70% with Pamela Anderson.

I sure did! I had three ways with her and Angelina Jolie regularly. Their boyfriends used to have to wait outside whimpering.

Vicente says

Roofers, fisherman, and cab drivers, don't get a lot of people slandering that they are "layabouts" who smoke cigars in the lounge between their long summer breaks.

I don't pay taxes to get a roof fixed or to take a cab. When my taxes are involved I expect certain quality for what I'm paying.

AlexS says

Again, enough of this crap already. Teachers whine the most about being underpaid and overworked. No one, NOT ANYONE, no other single profession whines more than teachers. Not even privates stuck in sandbox 5,000+ miles away whine more than teachers. And when they are not whining about being underpaid, they whine about how they are not in it for the money...

Talk to a farmer lately? They'll bitch about too much rain, too little rain, prices are too high, prices are too low, their favorite stump broke cow somehow got crabs, anything and everything.

Heck this entire blogs existence is founded on bitching and moaning about housing.

Vicente says

I'd like to see you QUANTIFY that.

"... A Nexis search of all news documents during the years 2000-2005 that included the words "letters to the editor," "teachers," "underpaid," and "overworked" produced 168 documents.

The same formulation for other professoins produced these results:
doctors - 60 documents
lawyers - 30 documents
secretaris - 30 docs
firefighters - 23 docs
marines - 15 docs
priests - 6 docs
carpenters - 2 docs
waiters - 1 doc

Source: Godless, Chapter 6 "The liberal priesthood: Spare the ROD, Spoil the Teacher".

FortWayne says

When my taxes are involved I expect certain quality for what I'm paying.

And for some reason you have an incredibly strong desire to believe that the quality is lower than it is. This is the message from you, over and over and over and over. Even you must realize that your beliefs about this are completely independent of facts.

It's also quite obvious that you were a terrible student in your day (blame teachers?) and have very low reading comprehension, even now. Apparently you're very much an auditory learner, who gets your only ongoing education from talk radio.

Public schools can always be better. But that's another part of what you don't understand, which is how much pressure there is for us to do better. Especially with regard to the achievement gap between socioeconomic groups.

AlexS says

their failure rate of delivery is much lower than teachers (50%+ of graduating kids can't read or do simple math)

Teachers can't force deadbeats to learn. Should they be allowed to use a whip?

AlexS says

It's just an expensive babysitting arrangement.

Absolutely.

AlexS says

YOu are right, it's not just teachers, but also "administrators" and other overhead (50% in public schools, only 10% in private schools), and the whole system.

But I'm guessing you have no problem with business leadership making so much more than the peons that actually do the work, right?

AlexS says

both parents are out working to pay the insane taxes (including income, payroll, state, local, sales, property, user fees, and INFLATION tax, and gazillion more). Nowadays it is almost impossible for family to survive on single income, hence another parent can't spend time with kids.

Half true.

The traditional middle-class family was destroyed by two things:

1) the feminist / free-love movement of the the 60s and 70s on the far-left, which destroyed it legally/culturally.

2) the globalization movement of the 80s and 90s on the far-right, which destroyed (what remained of it) economically.

That's hardly the fault of evil teachers.

AlexS says

"... A Nexis search of all news documents during the years 2000-2005 that included the words "letters to the editor," "teachers," "underpaid," and "overworked" produced 168 documents.

Fail.

You forget that those words would come up in letters talking about teachers being overpaid. ("but teachers say....") .They would also come up in letters complaining about teachers for any one of a number of reasons. (where, like you, part of their compliant was teachers complaining about being underpaid.

None of the other jobs on your list are paid for by taxes.

There are huge campaigns by Koch bros and other s against unions and for privatization of education. This leads people like econPete, FortWayne and others to complain about teachers, because of what they hear on talk radio.

Also, could it also be that it's true ? Especially in some places where teachers start at 30K ? And work their way up to 50K over the course of 17 years.

FortWayne says

I don't pay taxes to get a roof fixed or to take a cab.

I don't pay taxes to get Irag invaded, or banks bailed out, or even fix roads in red states. And yet it occurs. I'm dissatisfied with my quality of service too. Whaaa!

AlexS says

Source: Godless, Chapter 6 "The liberal priesthood: Spare the ROD, Spoil the Teacher".

I thought he was talking about TEACHERS complaining about their jobs, not people complaining ABOUT teachers.

"I demand my taxpayer dollars be used to teach about Pastafarianism and astrology, why won't you do that?" only proves there are a bunch of cranks who like to write letters while Matlock is on commercial. Probably still hold a grudge against Mrs. Grundy for failing them in Chemistry 40 years ago.

Vicente says

FortWayne says

I don't pay taxes to get a roof fixed or to take a cab.

I don't pay taxes to get Irag invaded, or banks bailed out, or even fix roads in red states. And yet they seem to get used for that. I'm dissatisfied with my quality of service too.

“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

But that is my point. Once taxes are involved, which aren't voluntary, people want their money spent wisely. I don't like how they are mismanaged on education, just the same way you are dissatisfied with bureaucracy and mismanagement at the military level.

FortWayne says

But that is my point. Once taxes are involved, which aren't voluntary, people want their money spent wisely.

Well, the title of the thread is "Public teacher's high pay is not justified!" Is there anyone who seriously thinks that, at least ideally, educating children should not be a prestigious and, yes, highly compensated profession? If I had to make a list of priorities for my tax dollars, compensating teachers would be near the top of the list.

We need threads for:

Doctor's pay is not justified
Banker's pay is not justified
Gas station attendant pay is not justifed
Golf caddy tips are not justified
Military socialism & pensions are not justified

This could run!

marcus says

None of the other jobs on your list are paid for by taxes.

Marcus, say, how are Marines getting paid? Firefighters?
What about Doctors in the VA hospital? State Prison?

Btw, Marcus, I can spend hours and hours ridiculing every single sentence you write - all of them are filled with discrepancies, lies, and misapplied statistics.

But I won't - I simply don't have time. Here is my very last favour for you:

68% statistic. It's faulty, and for many reasons. 1) Far more kids are going to public schools than private/home school. It's like saying more Chinese drive cars than Monacoans, hence Chinese are richer than people in Monaco... But that's a lie - there are very few Monacoans, and they drive Bentleys.

Second. 68% of class in public school not because, but DESPITE the latter. All Public schools do is dumb down the kids.

Side note to Vicente: YES I CAN QUANTIFY EVEN THAT - by showing how american kids perform before they enter public school (they perform best against their foreign peers) versus few years into (about average), all the way to graduation (you know, when the full beauty of American Publik sKooling is applied) - they are the worst.

Yes, American public sKools are even worst than the same in crap holes like Lithuania or France. Gee, if only our Olympic team lose to Latvians, would we fire all coaches right away, or would we wait 3 minutes? Plz show your work!

Vicente says

Gas station attendant pay is not justifed

Don't tell that to the state of New Jersey.

AlexS says

Yes, American public sKools are even worst than the same in crap holes like Lithuania or France.

I'm not sure what makes France a "crap hole", I see them at #13 in the Education Index. Oh where's USA? down at #21.

You might then say.... "let's look at what works in France or Lithuania".

Well if it's the UNION whipping boy people are looking for, or high pay, or "too much vacation" for teachers, I got some bad news for ya. France has unions, in fact they are not toothless and have gone on strike to get what they want in recent times. France has many more assistance programs, more kindergartens, education is free at all levels or very nearly.