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Public teacher’s high pay is not justified!


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2012 Jul 10, 8:23pm   47,996 views  142 comments

by EconPete   ➕follow (2)   💰tip   ignore  

Many teachers claim their incomes are insufficient. Many times they are not compared to the private sector because most teachers have very little real world, private sector, experience. They do not realize that pension and healthcare benefits that range from $10,000 to $60,000 a year are included in wages. Not including these huge benefits is a falsification of their compensation. Also, teachers have phenomenal job security which is not included in their nominal wages. Truthfully teachers only work about 2/3 of the year which is omitted from the conversation! Not too many private sector jobs get this perk, it’s funny that this is not factored in when looking at wages. Also not many private sector jobs have yearly scheduled pay increases equal or greater than inflation. It is easy to steal more money from tax payers, it is hard to compete to be deserving of those pay raises.

In the business world, an employee or owner brings in a certain amount of revenue to a company. In most circumstances, the compensation they get for their work is between 10%-15% of that revenue. Capital, raw materials, managers, interest, energy, facilities, transportation, and taxes all need to be paid with the other 90% to 85% of the money. So if someone makes $100,000 a year income, under normal circumstances, it is safe to say they bring in about $850,000 to $1,000,000 revenue a year. This shows that the worker is returning their worth to society because people voluntarily spent their money with their business and declared this entity worthy.

Now let’s look at the Public school teacher. In WI, the cost to educate a child per year in the public sector is around $12,000 a year! This is not viable in the private sector because nobody would be able to afford it, but let’s give teachers the benefit of the doubt. Then let’s say they teach 25 kids. 25 times $12,000 is $300,000 revenue a year. 15% of $300,000 is $45,000 a year. Including benefits, a starting teacher in WI makes $50,000 and a teacher with 30 years makes $95,000 with benefits. That is about 30% of revenue! This is all assuming that the $12,000 a year is possible. How many people can afford to pay that? That is why the private sector schooling is so less expensive!

Does anyone know why kids only go to school 2/3 of the year? It is because 120 years ago kids had to work in the farm fields! The public education school system is so outdated because it is restricted from competition! If schools had to compete for students and their funds, maybe then kids would be getting taught. In the private sector, companies don’t just get a geographic monopoly and get their customers handed to them like public teachers do. The private sector has to perform and prove their value to the customers. If they don’t, they will go out of business and those customers will go to succeeding schools. What this country needs is to restore capitalism to the education system. They should force schools and teachers to compete and let the parents decide where they want their own money spent and on what education they desire is best for their children, not some central planner in Washington!

Also one of the biggest detriments to free education is that it is FREE! People do not value things as much as when they have to give up hard earned funds. If parents had to spend even 50% of the cost to educate the child, they would be furious if the kid was not getting a return on their investment. If their kid came home with a C, the parents would express the cost and value of the education and ensure his performance. Now parents don’t even care because they don’t visually see the money being extracted from their paychecks in the form of taxes over the course of their lives. Collective responsibility of education diminishes the parent’s role in requiring value for the services their child should be receiving.

I recently calculated the dollar per hour wage of a 5th year teacher I know. They only work 35 hours a week, 39 weeks a year, which is 1365 hours a year. With a wage of $59,000, which includes benefits, this equals $43.22 an hour. How many private sector jobs offer this pay with all the given perks?

Teachers pay, the truth comes out:
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/33534649.html?appSession=17229597071022

Also, watch the movie “Waiting for Superman”.
http://www.movie2k.to/Waiting-For-Superman-watch-movie-482494.html

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63   marcus   2012 Jul 12, 2:39am  

AlexS says

It's just an expensive babysitting arrangement.

"This September, public schools provided almost 70 percent of the students entering Harvard"

That was 2009
http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/harvarddean-part5/

I read elsewhere that 68% of the class of 2015 are from public schools.

AlexS says

Also, plz save the "without parental involvement" comment

Nobody is arguing that it isn't tough these days, but still it's a big factor. Although, I think those students who have the really great combination of high aptitude and work ethic are no longer responding to parental pressure by the time they are in high school. Those habits are formed very early, and I think for some kids it just happens without even unusual involvement on the parent's part.

64   marcus   2012 Jul 12, 2:42am  

rdm says

My cousin with the 6 figure pension retired in her 60's worked in Highland Park district.

That's very believable, because it's highland park and because she was in her sixties.

65   Vicente   2012 Jul 12, 2:42am  

AlexS says

It's just an expensive babysitting arrangement......Nowadays it is almost impossible for family to survive on single income, hence another parent can't spend time with kids.

I know plenty of people with one spouse and often kids at home. Some are doing home schooling. Surprised you think it's impossible to do? Why? Do these people know some trick you don't? One for example the husband is a paper-shuffler in the prison system and is below $40K, and the wife stays at home other than some church work. Perhaps it's because they don't have a McMansion and 3 Escalades in the driveway like you?

Of course VERY few of these kids win Nobel prizes or become CEO or SC judges but that's another topic.

66   New Renter   2012 Jul 12, 2:59am  

AlexS says

It's like asking teenager guys if they have sex - 90% do, 70% with Pamela Anderson.

I sure did! I had three ways with her and Angelina Jolie regularly. Their boyfriends used to have to wait outside whimpering.

67   FortWayne   2012 Jul 12, 3:02am  

Vicente says

Roofers, fisherman, and cab drivers, don't get a lot of people slandering that they are "layabouts" who smoke cigars in the lounge between their long summer breaks.

I don't pay taxes to get a roof fixed or to take a cab. When my taxes are involved I expect certain quality for what I'm paying.

68   New Renter   2012 Jul 12, 3:05am  

AlexS says

Again, enough of this crap already. Teachers whine the most about being underpaid and overworked. No one, NOT ANYONE, no other single profession whines more than teachers. Not even privates stuck in sandbox 5,000+ miles away whine more than teachers. And when they are not whining about being underpaid, they whine about how they are not in it for the money...

Talk to a farmer lately? They'll bitch about too much rain, too little rain, prices are too high, prices are too low, their favorite stump broke cow somehow got crabs, anything and everything.

Heck this entire blogs existence is founded on bitching and moaning about housing.

69   AlexS   2012 Jul 12, 3:13am  

Vicente says

I'd like to see you QUANTIFY that.

"... A Nexis search of all news documents during the years 2000-2005 that included the words "letters to the editor," "teachers," "underpaid," and "overworked" produced 168 documents.

The same formulation for other professoins produced these results:
doctors - 60 documents
lawyers - 30 documents
secretaris - 30 docs
firefighters - 23 docs
marines - 15 docs
priests - 6 docs
carpenters - 2 docs
waiters - 1 doc

Source: Godless, Chapter 6 "The liberal priesthood: Spare the ROD, Spoil the Teacher".

70   marcus   2012 Jul 12, 3:13am  

FortWayne says

When my taxes are involved I expect certain quality for what I'm paying.

And for some reason you have an incredibly strong desire to believe that the quality is lower than it is. This is the message from you, over and over and over and over. Even you must realize that your beliefs about this are completely independent of facts.

It's also quite obvious that you were a terrible student in your day (blame teachers?) and have very low reading comprehension, even now. Apparently you're very much an auditory learner, who gets your only ongoing education from talk radio.

Public schools can always be better. But that's another part of what you don't understand, which is how much pressure there is for us to do better. Especially with regard to the achievement gap between socioeconomic groups.

71   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 3:16am  

AlexS says

their failure rate of delivery is much lower than teachers (50%+ of graduating kids can't read or do simple math)

Teachers can't force deadbeats to learn. Should they be allowed to use a whip?

AlexS says

It's just an expensive babysitting arrangement.

Absolutely.

AlexS says

YOu are right, it's not just teachers, but also "administrators" and other overhead (50% in public schools, only 10% in private schools), and the whole system.

But I'm guessing you have no problem with business leadership making so much more than the peons that actually do the work, right?

AlexS says

both parents are out working to pay the insane taxes (including income, payroll, state, local, sales, property, user fees, and INFLATION tax, and gazillion more). Nowadays it is almost impossible for family to survive on single income, hence another parent can't spend time with kids.

Half true.

The traditional middle-class family was destroyed by two things:

1) the feminist / free-love movement of the the 60s and 70s on the far-left, which destroyed it legally/culturally.

2) the globalization movement of the 80s and 90s on the far-right, which destroyed (what remained of it) economically.

That's hardly the fault of evil teachers.

72   marcus   2012 Jul 12, 3:23am  

AlexS says

"... A Nexis search of all news documents during the years 2000-2005 that included the words "letters to the editor," "teachers," "underpaid," and "overworked" produced 168 documents.

Fail.

You forget that those words would come up in letters talking about teachers being overpaid. ("but teachers say....") .They would also come up in letters complaining about teachers for any one of a number of reasons. (where, like you, part of their compliant was teachers complaining about being underpaid.

None of the other jobs on your list are paid for by taxes.

There are huge campaigns by Koch bros and other s against unions and for privatization of education. This leads people like econPete, FortWayne and others to complain about teachers, because of what they hear on talk radio.

Also, could it also be that it's true ? Especially in some places where teachers start at 30K ? And work their way up to 50K over the course of 17 years.

73   Vicente   2012 Jul 12, 3:32am  

FortWayne says

I don't pay taxes to get a roof fixed or to take a cab.

I don't pay taxes to get Irag invaded, or banks bailed out, or even fix roads in red states. And yet it occurs. I'm dissatisfied with my quality of service too. Whaaa!

74   Vicente   2012 Jul 12, 3:34am  

AlexS says

Source: Godless, Chapter 6 "The liberal priesthood: Spare the ROD, Spoil the Teacher".

I thought he was talking about TEACHERS complaining about their jobs, not people complaining ABOUT teachers.

"I demand my taxpayer dollars be used to teach about Pastafarianism and astrology, why won't you do that?" only proves there are a bunch of cranks who like to write letters while Matlock is on commercial. Probably still hold a grudge against Mrs. Grundy for failing them in Chemistry 40 years ago.

75   FortWayne   2012 Jul 12, 3:34am  

Vicente says

FortWayne says

I don't pay taxes to get a roof fixed or to take a cab.

I don't pay taxes to get Irag invaded, or banks bailed out, or even fix roads in red states. And yet they seem to get used for that. I'm dissatisfied with my quality of service too.

“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

But that is my point. Once taxes are involved, which aren't voluntary, people want their money spent wisely. I don't like how they are mismanaged on education, just the same way you are dissatisfied with bureaucracy and mismanagement at the military level.

76   bdrasin   2012 Jul 12, 3:38am  

FortWayne says

But that is my point. Once taxes are involved, which aren't voluntary, people want their money spent wisely.

Well, the title of the thread is "Public teacher's high pay is not justified!" Is there anyone who seriously thinks that, at least ideally, educating children should not be a prestigious and, yes, highly compensated profession? If I had to make a list of priorities for my tax dollars, compensating teachers would be near the top of the list.

77   Vicente   2012 Jul 12, 3:40am  

We need threads for:

Doctor's pay is not justified
Banker's pay is not justified
Gas station attendant pay is not justifed
Golf caddy tips are not justified
Military socialism & pensions are not justified

This could run!

78   AlexS   2012 Jul 12, 3:42am  

marcus says

None of the other jobs on your list are paid for by taxes.

Marcus, say, how are Marines getting paid? Firefighters?
What about Doctors in the VA hospital? State Prison?

Btw, Marcus, I can spend hours and hours ridiculing every single sentence you write - all of them are filled with discrepancies, lies, and misapplied statistics.

But I won't - I simply don't have time. Here is my very last favour for you:

68% statistic. It's faulty, and for many reasons. 1) Far more kids are going to public schools than private/home school. It's like saying more Chinese drive cars than Monacoans, hence Chinese are richer than people in Monaco... But that's a lie - there are very few Monacoans, and they drive Bentleys.

Second. 68% of class in public school not because, but DESPITE the latter. All Public schools do is dumb down the kids.

Side note to Vicente: YES I CAN QUANTIFY EVEN THAT - by showing how american kids perform before they enter public school (they perform best against their foreign peers) versus few years into (about average), all the way to graduation (you know, when the full beauty of American Publik sKooling is applied) - they are the worst.

Yes, American public sKools are even worst than the same in crap holes like Lithuania or France. Gee, if only our Olympic team lose to Latvians, would we fire all coaches right away, or would we wait 3 minutes? Plz show your work!

79   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 3:45am  

Vicente says

Gas station attendant pay is not justifed

Don't tell that to the state of New Jersey.

80   Vicente   2012 Jul 12, 3:52am  

AlexS says

Yes, American public sKools are even worst than the same in crap holes like Lithuania or France.

I'm not sure what makes France a "crap hole", I see them at #13 in the Education Index. Oh where's USA? down at #21.

You might then say.... "let's look at what works in France or Lithuania".

Well if it's the UNION whipping boy people are looking for, or high pay, or "too much vacation" for teachers, I got some bad news for ya. France has unions, in fact they are not toothless and have gone on strike to get what they want in recent times. France has many more assistance programs, more kindergartens, education is free at all levels or very nearly.

81   New Renter   2012 Jul 12, 3:52am  

AlexS says

Vicente says

I'd like to see you QUANTIFY that.

"... A Nexis search of all news documents during the years 2000-2005 that included the words "letters to the editor," "teachers," "underpaid," and "overworked" produced 168 documents.

The same formulation for other professoins produced these results:

doctors - 60 documents

lawyers - 30 documents

secretaris - 30 docs

firefighters - 23 docs

marines - 15 docs

priests - 6 docs

carpenters - 2 docs

waiters - 1 doc

Source: Godless, Chapter 6 "The liberal priesthood: Spare the ROD, Spoil the Teacher".

Did hedge fund manager, Fortune 500 CEO or central banker make the list?

82   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 3:54am  

Alexis is rapidly approaching my "ignore far-right trolls" list...

83   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 3:56am  

Vicente says

I'm not sure what makes France a "crap hole"

It's a crap hole because the French hate freedom!*

*for the wealthy and powerful to rule in their own interest at the expense of everyone else.

84   FortWayne   2012 Jul 12, 3:58am  

bdrasin says

Well, the title of the thread is "Public teacher's high pay is not justified!" Is there anyone who seriously thinks that, at least ideally, educating children should not be a prestigious and, yes, highly compensated profession? If I had to make a list of priorities for my tax dollars, compensating teachers would be near the top of the list.

It would be on that list if money translated to better education. But it did not in the past and it doesn't today. Every time the costs just go up, education standards and quality either stays the same or drops.

So far money has not been a solution.

85   AlexS   2012 Jul 12, 4:03am  

wthrfrk80 says

Alexis is rapidly approaching my "ignore far-right trolls" list...

Hey, wthrfrk80, it's the link right above "Discussions" - go for it.
I honestly can't have a conversion with people like you - you can't follow the simple argument, you switch context, and add useless, out of place stats to back it up...

86   AlexS   2012 Jul 12, 4:05am  

FortWayne says

So far money has not been a solution.

Every time liberals talk about more money for schools and children, they mean more money for teachers unions and public administrators.

87   Vicente   2012 Jul 12, 4:11am  

FortWayne says

So far money has not been a solution.

Elementary teacher in USA:
circa 1982-1983 was $20,375.
circa 2009-2010 was $55,350

That's a little above inflation, but not by a lot. Obviously the solution is pay minimum wage.

88   evilmonkeyboy   2012 Jul 12, 4:18am  

AlexS says

marcus says

The average teacher puts in at least 50 hours per week.

Marcus, that's based on what they (teachers, or as I call them disinformation facilitators) self-report.

So let me get this straight. A high school chemistry teacher with 180 students doesn't have to spend time setting up the labs that they do in class. The chemicals magically mix themselves and then put themselves away. The 180 lab reports the teachers collects on a Friday magically grade themselves over the weekend (at 3min/lab report that is 9 hours) and then they somehow just appear in the grade book. What about homework assignments? Who prepares that? Grades it? Records it? Who maintains the teachers web page daily? Deals with parents? Prepares lectures? Work one on one with students?

Yes... teachers have really pulled the wool over our eyes by making us think that they grade papers and prepare for class outside of their contractually paid hours.

89   AlexS   2012 Jul 12, 4:19am  

Vicente says

circa 2009-2010 was $55,350

don't have much time, but really can't resist this one. Do you know how liberals twist statistics?
By combining all substitute and part time teachers, and by not accounting benefits.

It's like combining doctor pay with dental hygenists ($10/hour), residents ($5/hour, considering 36 hour shifts and $30k/year salary), and medical students ($0/hour) and saying:
Doctors circa 2009-2010 was $40,000.

Reality is, teacher's pay is much higher than average ($50K median HOUSEHOLD income in the US), for much less work (2/3 of the year, including every conceivable holiday, break, and snow day).

Remember your college days? Now, who were the stupidest, lowest performing, constantly bar-hopping students? Why, the Teacher majors!

Their finish products (kids that can't read or do simple math) is horrible, if not criminal.

But now they unionized, and demand more pay!

90   AlexS   2012 Jul 12, 4:21am  

evilmonkeyboy says

Yes... teachers have really pulled the wool over our eyes by making us think that they grade papers and prepare for class outside of their contractually paid hours.

Say... what time does that overworked teacher leaves work? 2:30pm in december. Not applicable in July...

91   bdrasin   2012 Jul 12, 4:22am  

AlexS says

Remember your college days? Now, who were the stupidest, lowest performing, constantly bar-hopping students? Why, the Teacher majors!

Their finish products (kids that can't read or do simple math) is horrible, if not criminal.

But now they unionized, and demand more pay!

OK, suppose you just tell us what you think public teachers should be paid? No need for a long post, just give us a round even number so we can know where you are coming from

92   tatupu70   2012 Jul 12, 4:27am  

AlexS says

Remember your college days? Now, who were the stupidest, lowest performing, constantly bar-hopping students? Why, the Teacher majors!

Well, that's certainly a convincing argument. Factual, unbiased, based on statistics...

93   AlexS   2012 Jul 12, 4:27am  

bdrasin says

OK, suppose you just tell us what you think public teachers should be paid?

Most should be fired, jailed perhaps. The remaining - based on their performance. Some good teachers will make hundreds of thousands, with long lines of appreciating students and parents trying to get their business. Millons if your name is Khan (google Khan academy).

People should get their property tax moneys refunded, and decide how and where to spend on educating their kids.

hey, I hear it's 21st century, we have internet, and can watch Khan Academy for FREE??? Isn't it what you do when you want to learn algebra or history, anyway? I mean, when you really want to learn, not when you seat on your pants in school listening to disinformation facilitators discuss how to use condoms?

94   FortWayne   2012 Jul 12, 4:27am  

evilmonkeyboy says

A high school chemistry teacher with 180 students doesn't have to spend time setting up the labs that they do in class. The chemicals magically mix themselves and then put themselves away.

I don't know about every teacher and every school, out here homework gets rarely assigned, it never gets graded - A's are assigned for home work being simply turned in. Basically students today can graduate via attendance, not merit. And I personally have a problem with that.

Not all schools are the same and I get it. But what I see isn't education or quality.

95   Vicente   2012 Jul 12, 4:28am  

AlexS says

Remember your college days? Now, who were the stupidest, lowest performing, constantly bar-hopping students? Why, the Teacher majors!

Among my high school peers, the biggest jerks and idiots became cops. In college it was MGT Majors, I remember one guy whose favorite outfit was a bathrobe later joking about how much money he made for nothing productive.

YMMV.

96   AlexS   2012 Jul 12, 4:31am  

tatupu70 says

Well, that's certainly a convincing argument. Factual, unbiased, based on statistics..

Why don't you walk into any university bar on thursday night and see for yourself? ANY university (!!!) bar.
Then walk into chemistry lab, or computer lab.

Compare with medical and engineering majors.

97   AlexS   2012 Jul 12, 4:32am  

Vicente says

Among my high school peers, the biggest jerks and idiots became cops.

Sorry, I talked to chicks in the bar, not dudes :)

98   Vicente   2012 Jul 12, 4:36am  

AlexS says

Sorry, I talked to chicks in the bar, not dudes :)

You may not have noticed that women work these days. "Jerks and idiots" is not male.

99   AlexS   2012 Jul 12, 4:37am  

Vicente says

I remember one guy whose favorite outfit

Vicente says

You may not have women are employed these days. "Jerks and idiots" is not male.

...

100   tatupu70   2012 Jul 12, 4:37am  

AlexS says

Why don't you walk into any university bar on thursday night and see for yourself? ANY university (!!!) bar.
Then walk into chemistry lab, or computer lab.
Compare with medical and engineering majors.

Well, when I went to school my engineering mates drank pretty well and partied quite a bit....

Not sure what that has to do with whether teachers are overpaid, however.

101   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 4:41am  

AlexS says

Their finish products (kids that can't read or do simple math) is horrible, if not criminal.

what about proper grammar?

102   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 4:43am  

Vicente says

Among my high school peers, the biggest jerks and idiots became cops.

Ever see the movie "Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle"?

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