patrick.net

Do you mean the links on the right hand side of the home page?

They are chosen and voted on by users now, and I like it that way. More democratic, not my bias. And the users are doing a pretty good job.

Or do you mean something else?

See the attached image.

Does this "look" like a forum to you?

er...the image. Sorry

er...once again. Sorry.

kapone says

The new layout/format sucks. feels like a cesspool.

I guess "constructive criticism" can be transmitted in any number of ways.
You dick wacker.
See, if I would have called you a 'little" dick wacker you might have taken it offensively and ignored my concerns.
I was going to mention the new layout seems repetitive, but was going to give it more time to try and understand it's intent and benefit.
Now if you will excuse me, I am going to the cesspool.

I tend to agree. I find it a whole lot harder to use than it used to be. I figured I was just being a whiny bitch complaining about change, and that I would get used to it after a while. I haven't.

I'm not a big fan of the way the links are done now, but it's a second order issue to me. The big thing I don't like is how the forums are all obscured now. It used to be that there were several links on the left side of the page that would take you to different forums, now you see messages from all different forums together...

There are multiple problems with this.

1. It's confusing. Politics and housing and investing all get lumped together.
2. Threads have to fight with other forums in order to stay relevant / on top / commented on. A good "investing" topic might get lost because it has to compete with 3 hot-button political topics and a very active housing forum. Lost in the noise.
3. It forces me to have to think about which links I want to pay attention to, instead of just clicking the forum I am interested in.

I definitely think it was better before.

says

1. It's confusing. Politics and housing and investing all get lumped together.

You can see any of those topics separately:

http://patrick.net/politics/

http://patrick.net/real-estate/

http://patrick.net/investing/

Did you know that they are all separated that way? I admit it's not obvious.

You know, I think I have clicked the links across the top of the page before, but I don't really use them regularly. They aren't obvious, and I was never really sure that it was doing what I thought...Also I'm one of those fickle lazy web users, I think.

I still think lumping all the topics together in one feed waters things down. I wish I could configure the forum to be like it used to be for me when I'm logged in.

At the end of the day I use patrick.net a lot less than I used to. Partly due to shifting priorities / interests, I'm sure...partly due to the nature of the housing bust...it seems to be settling/resolving, there aren't huge YOY drops, etc...but the new format is definitely a part of it.

Not trying to be harsh -- I like the site and appreciate all the work that you have put into it...I just happen to think it was better before.

says

I wish I could configure the forum to be like it used to be for me when I'm logged in.

This should be very close to how it used to be:

http://patrick.net/real-estate/

I agree that the housing bust just isn't as fun as it used to be. No real debate about whether there was a crash, and not such huge price drops anymore. More of a slow deflation.

So I'm looking for new ways to have fun with the site. It really is about fun since the site never made money or came anywhere close to justifying the time I put into it.

My latest idea is to let people designate what their housing interest is (renter, landlord, buyer, seller, lawyer, agent) in their profile, and have that interest show up by each of their comments. Click on their profile, and you see their written description of what they're looking for.

I think this could perhaps help a lot of people find rentals, tenants, houses, buyers, customers, etc. Please try it out!

Next step is to add for-rent and for-sale forums, where landlords and sellers can list property for free.

Think it will be useful? What would make it more useful?

TMAC54 says

kapone says

The new layout/format sucks. feels like a cesspool.

I guess "constructive criticism" can be transmitted in any number of ways.

You dick wacker.

See, if I would have called you a 'little" dick wacker you might have taken it offensively and ignored my concerns.

I was going to mention the new layout seems repetitive, but was going to give it more time to try and understand it's intent and benefit.

Now if you will excuse me, I am going to the cesspool.

How much invested ? How much back ? What's the risk ?

A spade's a spade.

I hope Patrick realizes that it wasn't meant to be offensive per se. It was meant to convey my own personal viewpoint. I chose that word quite carefully btw.

Again, this is supposed to be a "forum". It doesn't feel like one right now.

I'm not offended. Just trying to understand how to make it all more useful and intuitive.

kapone says

Again, this is supposed to be a "forum". It doesn't feel like one right now.

Why not? Seems like a forum to me.

Why not? Seems like a forum to me.

It feels like a "collection" of links, with no real focus on the actual discussion. The discussions are what pulled me to the site, not any links.

The discussions seem to be getting sidelined.

The discussions are thriving though! There are more daily comments on the discussions than ever before.

So I still don't understand what you mean. You can just ignore the links on the right hand side of the home page, right?

The discussions are thriving though! There are more daily comments on the discussions than ever before.

So I still don't understand what you mean. You can just ignore the links on the right hand side of the home page, right?

:) See, that's the thing. I'm not saying that the discussions are not happening, it's all about "focus". You know how a UX works and how/what "should" be above/below the fold, on screen, split screen etc.

A user can't just "ignore" the links on the right. The eye is still drawn to them, and if the eye is there, guess where it's not?

First of all, regarding swebb’s reasonable feedback, the problem with many topics being lumped together drove me nuts too, but this has been resolved. You no longer have to put up with political crap or any other crap if all you want is real estate. Real estate only is here:

http://patrick.net/real-estate

And there is a link for each topic that pretty much excludes the other topics. As Patrick said, it might not be obvious, but it is there.

It actually makes sense that the main page covers many topics. It’s just like the front page of a newspaper. And inside the newspaper (and Patrick’s site) there are separate sections for each topic.

Secondly, regarding kapone’s complaint about there being too many links and only wanting to see user’s comments, that is pretty easy. I know this because I pretty much hate the user’s comments and only want to see the links. They are separated on the page enough so that I am not bothered. And I can manage my eyeballs while chewing gum.

If I can live with the user’s comments, most of which are crapola, maybe kapone could live with links from topic relevant sites.

Biff

Patrick,
Whatever changes you may make, there will probably still be complaints. Just roll with the changes.

Folks - that's ok. I just wanted to let Patrick know my views on the redesign. He doesn't have to listen to me. :)

I agree. I was thinking of commenting about the new redesign a few weeks ago. I think the link quality has definitely gone down since you let users submit/vote. I use to wait until midnight M-F to check out your page to see what the latest links were. But now I briefly glance at the page two to three times a week and the links don't look too interesting and then I move on to another site. Have you not seen a drop in page views to your site?

"It's a Pizza the minute you put your hands in the dough"

Love Poppy

kapone says

Folks - that's ok. I just wanted to let Patrick know my views on the redesign. He doesn't have to listen to me. :)

I am always delighted to get feedback! It's actually pretty hard to get people to say anything at all.

lurker123 says

I think the link quality has definitely gone down since you let users submit/vote. I use to wait until midnight M-F to check out your page to see what the latest links were. But now I briefly glance at the page two to three times a week and the links don't look too interesting and then I move on to another site. Have you not seen a drop in page views to your site?

The quality really is a function of the VOTING. Please vote! All you have to do is click up or down arrows now and then. You don't even need to be logged in.

Page views are the same as before, with the forum getting more views and comments, and the newslinks getting fewer views. I can live with that, since it's good for people to talk to each other.

My wife is very happy that I don't spend half of each day reading and rearranging newslinks anymore. Her vote counts for quite a lot.

The new format is a little difficult to read. I do get lost in all the links. And it's not just on the home page, forum has it all throughout.

I only recently learned that if I click on forum titles I'll get out of the links on the side.

@Patrick

The feature that allows discussion owners to delete comments discourages posting and thus also discourages reading. Why would I spend my time reading a person's argument, thinking deeply about it, and refuting the argument point-by-point if there is a risk the discussion owner would delete my post simply because it doesn't reflect his own political position?

It's one thing to delete trolling or belligerent posts. But allowing discussion owners to delete postings is going to be abused. It's just human nature. I'd recommend removing that feature.

I want to be able to delete my comments in all discussions. LOL

@Dan8267

Only Premium members can delete comments, and even then only on discussions that they started. So far, all Premium members are pretty reasonable people, like yourself. I don't think they will delete much.

My main motive in doing this is to encourage for-sale and for-rent postings. I know that landlords and sellers are skittish about listing property in a place where anyone can say anything. E-man already said so in the thread about the new for-sale and for-rent forums:

http://patrick.net/?p=1214327&c=844568#comment-844568

We found our last 3 tenants from Craigslist. We don't need to listen or deal with the insensitive comments from here.

And he's got a point. It seems fair enough that a Premium member who starts a thread should get to be its moderator. As a Premium member, you have the same privilege. And you can always quote someone in a new thread of your own that you control.

HEY YOU says

I want to be able to delete my comments in all discussions. LOL

You can. Just click "delete" above any of your own comments. Should work.

I don't have a mass self-delete though. That would muck up the flow of lots of conversations all at once. And what would I label that? Self-destruct?

Patrick - have to chime in on this as well. As a reader since pre-forum, and the old forum.

The main page has turned into a cluster bomb.

Regarding people voting on the articles - that's fine. And it saves you time.

But maybe separate the forum, from the links page. In other words, make your homepage similar to what it was before - news links for the day.

Then have your forum links at the top, but when you click on each link, it takes you to a forum page - without the news links on the right..

I guess my point is to separate the two. I'm with kapone in that I've spent a lot less time on your site since it got so busy.

**DISCLAIMER** I have a poor eye for design. Just found it hard to read comfortably on your site like before.

They are chosen and voted on by users now, and I like it that way. More democratic, not my bias. And the users are doing a pretty good job.

I actually came here to read your bias. At least your bias on picking links. I come less now.
I find the front page confusing and hard to scan.

Before I knew the links where generally ordered starting with real estate as a topic, ordered by "interestingness" with some other sometimes interesting topics towards the bottom.

Now it is pretty random.

Yes, the links are pretty random on the home page, just all topics together in one big bucket ordered by votes.

But as said, you can select, say, politics by clicking the "Politics" link in the header. Then you see the politics forum on the left, and the politics links on the right. That was a user suggestion and I think it's pretty good.

So that cleans things up for people interested in just one topic. "Interestingness" is decided by votes.

I know I was providing some value by personally selecting and ordering links, but it was a ton of unpaid work. It's fun to get readers and compliments, but the bills continue even when there is no income. I tried charging $5/month for the latest links back in 2007 or so, and traffic plummeted and kept falling, with not enough subscribers to make it work. So I made it free again, and readers came back.

I tried begging for money, and that works OK, but it's embarassing and I don't want to work that way. I also tried various kinds of advertising, and premium data services, but not much luck there either. All the while I can tell my wife is noticing that I'm putting in all this time on picking newslinks and not making any money...

Then I noticed that the forum traffic continues to grow steadily, while the traffic coming for just the newslinks was flat even when I was putting all that effort into picking them. So I decided the latest forum comments should be on the home page, and that made forum traffic go up even more. My son reads lots of silly forums and said I should just make it strictly chronological on the home page, not grouped by topic. That's how most forums indexes are done. People can choose separate topics if they want (like clicking "Politics" in the header for example).

The latest idea is to add for-rent and for-sale forums where people can list property, because it has never been possible before for renters, landlords, buyers, and sellers all to talk to each other on a forum. It has all been one-way communication: from advertisements to your eye. No contact with others. And now everyone can update their profile to tick whether they are a renter, landlord, buyer, seller, etc to help us know what the other readers are looking for. Other people are more interesting than anything else, IMHO.

So that's where we are now.

tekkierich says

I actually came here to read your bias. At least your bias on picking links. I come less now.

I do think Patrick's selection gave them an air of gravitas. I totally understand the issue though, with the wife and the unpaid work and all.

I wonder if we could separate the economics, real estate, rent and investment type wheat from the chaff sections?

Seems like that's where your claim to fame lies.

CL says

I wonder if we could separate the economics, real estate, rent and investment type wheat from the chaff sections?

Well, I do separate them like this:

http://patrick.net/real-estate/
http://patrick.net/investing/

Is there a better way to do the separation?

Patrick,
While I understand your frustration of having to do "unpaid" work, that (in my opinion) is not an excuse to lower the quality of what you have. The quality of links now (in my opinion again) is worse than before.

And yes, I completely understand having more time to spend with family vs hand picking links, but you have a "product" to administer. Whether you get paid for it or not is besides the point, you need to make a decision on whether that "product" is still working (as intended) or not.

My .02.