patrick.net

Honest Abe says

Heck, this is something even liberals should get behind. Watch it and weep.

And what happens if you retire just as the market collapses? What if your retirement fund is looted by a criminal? What if you make minimum wage most of your life and spend every penny on day to day survival?

Do you really think employers are going to turn over more money in income to employees (particularly low skilled ones) because they no longer have to pay payroll taxes? Heck no, they'll keep it for themselves and there will be no social security for the elderly poor. There will be no social security for the disabled who are are unable to work. No, Social Security is a necestity to ensure the elderly and disabled don't end up on the streets.

Oh come on: (1) Helicopter been won't "let the market collapse". He'll just shift the printing presses to OVERDRIVE, print more money and save the day.

(2) First rule of investing is "don't put all your eggs in one basket"

(3) If you work at minimum wage "most of your life", you're not trying hard enough.

(4) Watch the video again, it says nothing about employers giving more money to employees.

(5) I do agree that there needs to be a safety net to assist those who are truly disabled and unable to work.

(6) Wouldn't you like to be given the choice: Do you wish to contribute to a government sponsored social security plan, or do you prefer to contribute to a private social security plan?

Lets review again to see if we can determine which might be the better choice: Private retirement plan = nest egg of $3.5 MILLION, weekly income of $3,500 per week OR a government sponsored socialized insecurity plan = nest egg of ZERO dollars, and weekly income of $300 per week. Even a cave man could figure that one out.

Propagating Ideas ?

Sounds like the Koch brothers. They're all about "ideas" that fit their agenda rather than truth.

The truth is that the government is locked in to our social security plan.
So abandoning in right now is impossible. In fact right now we are on the cusp of having to provide benefits to boomers who have paid in all their lives. And the government has been spending that money, and owes it to itself and the recipients. This means taxes for the Koch brothers and everyone, if we are going to honor our commitments.

Also, the numbers in the piece are misleading. The Dow went from 800 in 1982 to what 13,000now ? It is crazy to assume that that will happen over the next 20 years. We had a credit boom going on then. Now we are deleveraging.

In theory I get it, and yes, it kind of sucks as a retiremnt plan for many reasons, but remeber social security is much more. It pays death and disability payments too, should an untimely death or accident occur.

I'm not defending SS, but I suspect an agenda behind that video that is not in our best interest.

I agree we are locked into SS with no exit strategy. Its unfortunate because more and more retirees are going to be on the shoulders of fewer and fewer workers. Its not fair to the newer workers.

Similarly, its unconscionable to run up the debt now, but place the burden of payment on the shoulders of future generations. Thats morally bankrupt, but that's a different topic altogether.

I think the agenda behind the video is investments, or some type of financial planning, which would probably be very much in our best interest. As you may know, only 6% of Americans retire with enough money to MAINTAIN their existing lifestyle.

Investing, financial planning, tax strategy, learning how money works, the Rule of 72 and the time value of money are things we all should learn to provide for ourselves and our families, IMHO...IF we want to be amongst the 6% who are able to maintain their lifestyle when they retire.

Honest Abe says

3) If you work at minimum wage "most of your life", you're not trying hard enough.
(4) Watch the video again, it says nothing about employers giving more money to employees.
(5) I do agree that there needs to be a safety net to assist those who are truly disabled and unable to work.

3) Not everyone is gifted. Many people will work hard for minimum wage and never get ahead. Wages aren't set by who deserves what, but what the market will bear. If someone doesn't have sufficient skills and, making minimum wage, has to spend every penny to eat, have a roof over their heads, basic utilities, transportation, and healthcare, then they can't save to get better training. They also can't save $350 for privitized retirement accounts, as that's about 1/4 of their income before taxes. This wishful thinking that making minimum wage is merely a lack of effort is disgusting and dismissive of the most needy and often hardest working.

4) My point on employers is that that by being compelled into payroll tax payment, employers provide money for retirement to employes, even low wage earners. Because minimum wage barely covers the cost of survival in 21st century America, there would be no means to save for the WORKING poor. These people are not moochers. Their contributions to production are just undervalued. They shouldn't be left to rot because they weren't born gifted or priviledged or had bad luck in the health department, so that they could work, but not at any job that would pay a living wage.

5) And who's going to provide the financial support to the truly disabled, the disablity fairy? No, government needs to do so. If we privitize it, services will be routinely cut to pass on the subsidy paid by government to shareholders, not to provide care. Look at several private prisons. They're cutting back on meals in some cases to spare shareholders the added cost of food inflation. Do we hate prisoners, yes, but the government pays for them to be treated humanely and one meal a day on weekends is not humane treatment. The same thing will happen to the severly autistic 60 year old whose parents have passed and who nobody but the private company checks in on.

The private sector is a glorious thing, but allowing it to control our safety net is courting danger. Our neediest people are also the ones who you'd make the least profit off of. And the hardest working, but economically limited would see their standards of living become a nightmare so that Wall Street can skim rents off retirement accounts of those slightly better off.

Anyone know what's The Liberty Crier's agenda.
I've got a simple mind. I believe every video I see.

futuresmc says

Honest Abe says

3) If you work at minimum wage "most of your life", you're not trying hard enough.
(4) Watch the video again, it says nothing about employers giving more money to employees.
(5) I do agree that there needs to be a safety net to assist those who are truly disabled and unable to work.

3) Not everyone is gifted. Many people will work hard for minimum wage and never get ahead. Wages aren't set by who deserves what, but what the market will bear. If someone doesn't have sufficient skills and, making minimum wage, has to spend every penny to eat, have a roof over their heads, basic utilities, transportation, and healthcare, then they can't save to get better training.

Seriously if you are stuck in minimum wage your whole life, you really arent trying hard enough. There really is no excuse for that.

Minimum wage YOUR WHOLE LIFE???? Seriously, unless you're physically or mentally limited is there really any other legitimate excuse?

OK, so millions can't (or more importantly WON'T) put aside $350 per month. How about half that amount? How about one fourth of that? One fourth would yeild a nest egg of about $850,000 and a weekly income of about $800. So where would the $90 per month come from?
Stop smoking
Brown paper bag lunch
car pool, bus, bike or walk instead of drive
Cancel cable TV
stop drinking
stop internet connection
stop cell phone
Cancel all UN-NECESSARY EXPENDURES.

$850,000 is infinitely larger than ZERO, and $800 per week is more than 2.5 times $300 per week.

We are the sum total of the abilities we have and the choices we make.

Who is it up to?

I know its not PC to say this, but many, if not most, people are poor because of the choices they have made in their lives. Unfortunately, the reality is that the rest of society is not responsible to make up for their short comings. I know MANY of my friends, including myself who grew up very poor. Thus I can say this... if one truly makes an effort, then there is no reason that someone should be making minimum wage your entire life.

If we truly want to help the poor and needy, we need to encourage them to help themselves. Unfortunately we have become a "hand-out" nation, especially in california. California has 1/3 of the nations welfare recipients and 60% if kids born are receiving WIC. Unfortunately this perpetuates the problem...

Meccos says

I know its not PC to say this, but many, if not most, people are poor because of the choices they have made in their lives. Unfortunately, the reality is that the rest of society is not responsible to make up for their short comings.

Classic Faux News Bullshit.

Warren Buffet has a net worth of $50 billion. That is 50,000 times as much wealth as someone who is merely a millionaire. Therefore, as a millionaire, you have as much in common with someone who has a net worth of twenty bucks as you do with Warren Buffet. A guy with a net worth of $40 bucks is TWICE as close to you as you are to Buffett.

You don't have as much money as Warren Buffet because of the choices you have made. In fact, the choices you have made are twice as close to the minimum wage guy with forty bucks in his pocket as they are to Buffett. Don't get all high and mighty on the poor and their choices. You aren't that far off.

You aren't rich. Warren is rich.

And while guys like Buffet (well at least the Walton's and Koch's) keep convincing you that you could be in their club if it weren't for all these damn lazy poor people, they will continue to laugh their ass off at your stupidity while they cash their dividend checks and pay half the tax rate you do.

Meanwhile, more and more of the nation's wealth keeps getting sucked up by the real wealthy and you are left wondering why you are standing next to the "lazy" poor guy in line at the health clinic because that is all you and your million bucks can afford too. When your standing next in that line with the guy you were told was your enemy as those years you might actually realize you've been had.

@david1

Oh get over it. The fact is that there will always be rich and poor people. We need to get over this PC bullcrap and tell it like it is. People who make more money do so and did so because of the years of preparation they took starting from childhood. Surely it makes a huge difference if your parents were wealthy but thats life. NOt everyone is born the same.

However, regardless of your status at birth, if one has put in the effort and time, there is no excuse not to at least support a moderate or reasonable life style, which is the point Im making. It is estimated that about 8% of the population receives welfare. Its becoming a big problem and I think it is in part to this attitude that the poor cant be blamed for being poor. BS. Certainly there are exceptions and I am not talking about those exceptions. But all 8% of the population can not be blamed? They can not be blamed for not studying hard in school? They can not be blamed for not working hard or smarter? They can not be blamed for other actions they took which limited their earning capacity?

How about people finally take some responsibilities for their own actions.

Lets face reality here and stop living in La-La land.

Lets stop making excuses for people, lets encourage the poor to help themselves.... and if they truly cannot help themselves, then we as a people can assist them. But there is no reason that 8% of the population is helpless We will all be doing everyone a bigger favor this with hard-love approach then to coddle them.

I cant wait to hear the ranting replies for being so "politically incorrect".

OH NO!, heaven forbid that someone who is not poor actually flame on the poor....

david1 says

Classic Faux News Bullshit.

Exactly. Libertarian think tanks have crafted this propaganda so well that Americans, including the working poor, are regurgitating it.

The reality is that it's VERY easy to get stuck at or near minimum wage if you're coming out of school today, or even in the past decade. If you're in your 60's now, you spent your early working years at a time when you could work and train for better if you were willing to put in 60-70 hour weeks, start at minimum wage and build from there. Now, you compete with interns who will work for free and hoards of unemployed people who will work for just enough to feed themselves and their families. The end result is that the market set the prevailing wage for those without the resources to get specialized training at subsistance. When that happens, there's very little chance to have better and you create a permanent underclass. This idea that minimum wage workers are lazy is BS, totally think tank contrived BS.

Meccos says

How about people finally take some responsibilities for their own actions.

They take responsibilities for their actions EVERY DAY. They are poor and have to live with it. Some of the reasons why they are poor are there fault, so are not. But don't think they dont take responsibility- they live the life.

My point is you bring this crap up like its a problem - it isn't. The poor are not your enemy. The amount of your tax dollars going to welfare for the poor is minimal and pails in comparison to the welfare for the rich. You are stuck thinking that the government is "wasting" time and money trying to help the "lazy" poor. You are pointing the blame finger in the wrong direction buddy. The quality of life for the middle class has fallen so substantially in the last 40 years I can't believe you dont notice it.

You will when YOU are poor. Twenty more years of 15%+ inflation in health care and you'll be too poor to afford it too.

In short, I am not criticizing you for flaming on the poor because it isn't PC, I am criticizing you for doing it because you think it is the poor that are ruining the economy of this country.

Yeah, it was the poor that almost blew up the whole financial system in '08 and it was the poor that needed all of those bailouts...

Meccos says

Lets stop making excuses for people, lets encourage the poor to help themselves.... and if they truly cannot help themselves, then we as a people can assist them.

Not sure why you included that last bit. Surely you don't mean it.

Honest Abe says

Heck, this is something even liberals should get behind. Watch it and weep.

Read what and weep? I don't see anything but a very lame video with no facts at all. About par for honest abe. It feels right so it must be true. The math (actually there isn't any math, just a random number thrown out) doesn't begin to add up. Anyone have any information on what the liberty crier is anyway? Even wiki doesn't have anything about them.

Yes in theory you can do very well in the stock market, but you can lose your ass also. Even if you put everything into an index fund the timing can still make it a pretty poor investment. You could have invested in the 50's, continued to contribute all through the 60's and 70's and ended up with no gain. Same for starting to invest in the late 90's through today. The word 'historical" is used to hide this fact. BTW the historical return for s&p is somewhere around 6.5-7% not 10% like the video claims. That makes the video bullshit from the get go.

Yes SS is a deeply flawed system. Yes everyone should be saving for their own retirement with a balance of widely diversified investments, including SOME stocks. But anyone who contends for a second that if everyone put their money in wall street and let stocks perform their magic is just a fool and a patsy for the wall st/faux news propaganda machine. Wall streeters makes money on wall st. Getting big returns is an insider's game. Average investors don't make a lot above inflation, if that. If you look around the table and can't spot the sucker then it's probably you.

Social Security = guaranteed poverty.