patrick.net

The pattern described in Belgium and Sweden is happening across Europe, and "honor killings" have also occurred in Canada and the USA.

In Holland, a legislator named Pim Fortuyn campaigned to stop immigration, arguing that a new wave of Islamist immigrants were trying to turn Holland into a Muslim colony. His supporters included people who had immigrated years before from Muslim countries, specifically to get away from the Islamist fanatics. He was assassinated by an Islamist.

They do need a Renaissance or a sexual revolution, or we need to stop buying oil from that part of the world. American energy policy in particular, and high oil prices in general, have empowered people who hate us (e.g. our Wahhabi "friends" in Saudi Arabia).

They will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

marcus says

They will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

Maybe and maybe not. Regardless, assimilation does not happen overnight.

marcus says

They will be assimilated.

Look at the differences between Pakistan and India, after more than sixty years. Globally, the more demanding "faiths" are gaining adherents, while the moderate faiths are losing. The moderate faiths concede the premise, like a beachhead, but the more demanding faiths take the ground. The reason has been the same throughout history: sacrifice creates loyalty. If the preachers can get you to sacrifice your children, either literally ("honor killings") or metaphorically (watch "8: The Mormon Proposition"), then you will never be able to disobey or leave the religion; the cognitive dissonance of admitting such a huge error would simply be too great. There is always the risk that freedom, like life itself, may turn out to be only a brief candle.

marcus says

They will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

Islam has never assimilated in the past. On the contrary, it has had great success devouring other cultures and religions.

Raw says

marcus says

They will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

Islam has never assimilated in the past. On the contrary, it has had great success devouring other cultures and religions.

Are you referring to the golden age of Islam, from like the 8th century to the 14th century?

Raw says

Islam has never assimilated in the past

Most islamic Americans (something like 90%) are moderate and do not fit the description in the reddit post (if you read it) of radicals who don't fit in to western culture.

MAny of their descendants will be less radical if not agnostic or atheist or in any case further assimilated. I don't know what the deal is with that neighborhood in belgium.

According to wikipedia, 6% of the Belgium population is islamic with only 10% practicing their faith. And yet:

"According to a 2006 opinion poll 61% of the Belgian population think tensions between Muslims and other communities will increase in the future."

It sounds like the prejudice in Belgium against Islamic people is exaggerated, leading to myths such as what he said as a generalization that there is no respect for police authority.

I have heard of problems in France with their significant islamic population, because there is significant prejudice against them and they sometimes have a hard time finding work.

But they have a huge fairly well integrated population in France none the less.

Read 'Integration' and 'Discrimination' and 'Recuperations' here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_France

marcus says

According to wikipedia,

Well, there's your first problem, sources. You might as well quote the NT, which at least doesn't change daily, and assures that Christ will eventually prevail over all the infidels.

marcus says

I have heard of problems in France with their significant islamic population, because there is significant prejudice against them and they have a hard time finding work.

That is one side of the story. The rest of the story is France colonized Tunisia with the expectation of making everybody French, but the Islamists didn't want to become French, yet many of them moved to France anyway. Most French people have considerable patriotic pride in French culture. Saying "I want to replace French culture with Islamic culture" is unlikely to win much popularity in France, and that has nothing to do with prejudice.

Although Europeans are loathe to hear it, IMO Americans are generally more tolerant of different ethnicities and religions.

curious2 says

Saying "I want to replace French culture with Islamic culture" is unlikely to win much popularity in France, and that has nothing to do with prejudice.

Yes right. And the feelings many have against Mexican Americans is not prejudice. After all, those La Raza radicals want to make this country a northern satellite of Mexico.

rooemoore says

Although Europeans are loathe to hear it, IMO Americans are generally more tolerant of different ethnicities and religions.

Of course. We are well on our way to being extremely multicultural (sorry teabaggers - I know you hate that term). Already, less than half of the new babies born in in the US are "white."

50 years from now ?

The word tolerance loses its meaning to some extent when there are no majority cultures, and when diverse becomes one of the best words to describe our culture.

marcus says

And the feelings many have against Mexican....

Ugh. Please watch Dan's video about straw man arguments. You are either suffering a patent failure of logic, which you should simply withdraw, or you are deliberately substituting for purposes of "winning" a fake ad hominem battle with an imaginary straw figure.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/v5vzCmURh7o

marcus says

curious2 says

Saying "I want to replace French culture with Islamic culture" is unlikely to win much popularity in France, and that has nothing to do with prejudice.

Yes right. And the feelings many have against Mexican Americans is not prejudice. After all, those La Raza radicals want to make this country a northern satellite of Mexico.

I don't think that this analogy is necessarily accurate. The dominant religion of Mexican Americans and Anglo Americans is Christianity while the western Europeans are largely secular which is clearly a polar opposite of Islam. Thus, the greater mismatch and assimilation issues in Europe and that's just a start.

dublin hillz says

western Europeans are largely secular which is clearly a polar opposite of Islam.

Exactly, and this is why Pim Fortuyn's supporters included both native Dutch and people who had immigrated from Muslim countries because they wanted to get away from the Islamists, and it's why he was assassinated by Islamists. Muslims who emigrated to escape the Islamists are a bit like Russians who defected from the Soviet Union; they still spoke Russian and ate blintzes, but they didn't want to impose Soviet rule on their new countries.

The late king of Saudi Arabia has stated that Islam and democracy are not compatible.
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis/islamic_viewpoints/is_islam_compatible_with_democracy_and_human_rights/

Bringing up logical fallacies is in itself weak, in my opinion. But since you brought it up...

curious2 says

Most French people have considerable patriotic pride in French culture. Saying "I want to replace French culture with Islamic culture" is unlikely to win much popularity in France, and that has nothing to do with prejudice.

I may have not understood your point. But i thought you were implying a generalization that most Islamic French people are 'islamists' who believe "I want to replace French culture with Islamic culture."

All the statistics that I find show this to be a straw man argument. You are attributing a belief to the typical islamic individual that isn't there.

I have heard similar arguments made about Mexican Americans having a La Raza view. Maybe with the mexican Americans it's 5% that feel that way, where as it's 10% of the islamic immigrant to france who feel that way.

Either way what I was attempting to efficiently show where the flaw was in your logic. Sorry if you didn't get it.

Maybe instead of thinking, or responding, you can tell me what logical fallacy I am using now.

marcus says

Bringing up logical fallacuies is in itself weak,

Wow. Nevermind debating then, go back to reciting your favorite prayers. I am starting to see why Dan got fed up with you.

In any event, the reason why I brought up the example of Pim Fortuyn was precisely because of the internal split that you now say you were "attempting to efficiently show." Check the comment history, and you'll see it was already posted.

I do not understand:

curious2 says

In any event, the reason why I brought up the example of Pim Fortuyn was precisely because of the internal split that you now say you were "attempting to efficiently show.

So I will assume you may be closer to understanding my point, which is probably as much as I can hope for.

curious2 says

Nevermind debating then

It's fine to point out a specific straw man argument, and why it is one. This is different than going into a big lecture about logical fallacies, implying your logic is sound because you can look up logic fallacy nomenclature, and then hold forth as if you are an expert on logic, without ever actually getting to the details of how and where the fallacy was used (which for a normal person would be the point)

It's a fricking substitute for a real mature argument, and quite pathetic.

IF you're like your hero Dan, this is where the name calling should kick in.

marcus says

I do not understand

Evidently.

(1) the fact that people from Muslim backgrounds can have different political views was already posted and never in dispute.
(2) You claim that you were "attempting to efficiently show" something that was already posted and never in dispute when in fact you were posting a straw man in order to win a fake ad hominem attack, associating with racism both the French and by extension everyone else who disagrees with you.

You don't understand why your use of the straw man fallacy was important, for the same reason you think pointing out a logical fallacy is weak. For you, it's tribal: "people who say the same things as me are good, people who say opposing things are bad," logic doesn't matter, only tribal loyalty. In that context, it is easy to see how you would mistake the Islamists for your long-lost twins, a lost part of your tribe, and then of course take their side against those evil secular Europeans. Nevermind that Islamists don't feel the same way about you, just let the emphasis on spirituality (and the rejection of intellect and reason) wash over you.

curious2 says

there is no logic, only tribes

That's so you. Otherwise you would be capable of understanding my point.

It's this:

The generalization that all Islamic immigrants in France, believe "I want to replace French culture with Islamic culture," is incorrect.

THere is no post that says this to be correct. There is a post on reddit, about Islamic neighborhoods in Belgium.

My opinion is that it is at least in part very exaggerated. For example with regard to police not going in to those neighborhoods. But in any case, it doesn't speak to your implied generalization about France.

curious2 says

You don't understand why your use of the straw man fallacy was important, for the same reason you think pointing out a logical fallacy is weak.

AS for straw man fallacy ? I know what it is, but why not just directly and specifically tell me your point. I have to assume if rather than just tell me where the specific flaw is, you break in to a video about straw man fallacies, that you are on thin ice.

Your way is inefficient and intended as a substitute for drilling down quickly and efficiently to the point. I assume that this is also because of some tribal fear of yours, because you are the one that's all about winning or losing or actually trolling.

By the way, congratulations you trolled me very well there (instead of making a specific point you play a video about logic fallacy, imply I don't have legitimate logic, and bring Dan into the conversation, all as a substitute for a simple specific response).

marcus says

The generalization that all Islamic immigrants in France, believe

Nobody attributed anything to "all Islamic immigrants in France."

marcus says

your hero Dan

You're populating a field with straw men. I didn't call Dan a hero before, but I'm starting to think his efforts to withstand your nonsense deserve much more credit than I had previously recognized. You may actually prove Dan heroic.

marcus says

why not just directly and specifically tell me your point... you are the one that's all about winning or losing.

Although you refrain from name calling, your rejection of logical debate enables you to throw whatever fecal matter you can find. There is no prize at stake here, so I don't see why you would say it's "all about winning or losing." You reject logic itself as "weak," i.e. a lesser faculty, which enables you to throw tribal arguments around like your 2:41p straw man argument that derailed this discussion and caused my opinion of you to fall into negative numbers.

marcus says

the generalization that all or most of the French Islamic people and people of Islamic descent believe,

Nobody said anything about what all French people of Islamic descent believe, and you are the only one who stated any generalization about what most of them believe.

marcus says

one of your trolling frenzies...I say welcome to ignore (I don't have time for that kind of BS).

So now you resort to name-calling and retreat into ignore. You have at last proved that @Dan8267 was right about you.

Marcus: "I have heard of problems in France with their significant islamic population, because there is significant prejudice against them and they have a hard time finding work."

curious2: "Most French people have considerable patriotic pride in French culture. Saying "I want to replace French culture with Islamic culture" is unlikely to win much popularity in France, and that has nothing to do with prejudice."

curious2 says

You have at last proved that Dan was right about you.

Yes, because I don't have time for arguments about arguing, I have proven Dan correct. He's on ignore too (what is he 4th most ignored person on Patnet ?).

If you were even the slightest bit thoughtful you would have made an attempt to understand where I was coming from, instead you show yourself to be a troll, just trying to get a rise out of me.

That was not my intent, nor was it to win. I was just responding to:

Saying "I want to replace French culture with Islamic culture" is unlikely to win much popularity in France, and that has nothing to do with prejudice."

This was an incorrect contradiction of what I had said. I responded, and the next thing I know I'm using logic fallacies and making Dan correct about me. Fuck you.

marcus says

troll, just trying to get a rise out of me.

If you actually believe that I have any interest in getting "a rise out of" you, then you overestimate your importance. That would also be consistent with what @Dan8267 has written about you. I'm not going to reciprocate your name calling, and I'm not going to quote your profanity. For someone who claims to ignore me, you seem to quote me a lot, albeit out of context, so it seems you have trouble with consistency on that score also.

Back to the OP,,,

Lucky for those countries, you know what they need!

If you were a bird, and they (islamic countries) a fish, you'd brow beat them to deatj about how come they won't just give up swimming and start flying. So much so, you'd insist on forcing them up the tree to a nest, and demanding "fly now,,this, I COMMAND"

errc says

Back to the OP,,,

Lucky for those countries, you know what they need!

If you were a bird, and they (islamic countries) a fish, you'd brow beat them to deatj about how come they won't just give up swimming and start flying. So much so, you'd insist on forcing them up the tree to a nest, and demanding "fly now,,this, I COMMAND"

And your point is?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/gAjzH0vWSIA

LOL - I love the flying fish reply.

Also, Islamic countries are populated by actual humans, genetically almost identical to western countries. So, it isn't really a close comparison to say that they are being asked to grow wings. It's closer to - dare I say it - the straw man argument. Realistically, a sexual revolution may be the best hope for a country like Iran, where a very high percentage of the population are young but almost all power is held by an elderly few.

Yes curious you are on ignore, but I opened in another browser just to see:

"If you actually believe that I have any interest in getting "a rise out of" you, then you overestimate your importance."

Fair enough. I don't know your motivation. All I know is that rather than take the trouble to comprehend my point, or address in a specific way what you say is flawed logic, you post a video about straw man falacy, and you bring Dan into it, all as a sub substitute for specifics.

Then later say things like. "Wow. Nevermind debating then, go back to reciting your favorite prayers."

Talk about a sore loser.

Then to add irony, rather than ever be really specific you say I use a straw man argument, when I was responding to an assertion that rather than being prejudice, much of the French negative feelings toward Islamic immigrants can be attributed to the Ismaic pov ""I want to replace French culture with Islamic culture."

Not exactly a straw man in the sense that you are attributing false beliefs about your pov to me, the one you are arguing with, but still ironic, since I was reacting to your attribution of incorrect beliefs to a majority of French Islamic immigrants.

And then while we're on straw man:

curious2 says

You don't understand

curious2 says

and then of course take their side against those evil secular Europeans

I was noting that a significant majority of Islamic immigrants who are not radical islamists don't have those views and integrate well in French culture, especially over time. Never the less they experience plenty of prejudice, which even I tend to feel when I read posts such as the linked OP on reddit. But I think it is an exaggerated view.

I stick with my assessment of how much of a jerk you were here.

marcus says

Yes curious you are on ignore, but I opened in another browser just to see

...and posted another lengthy nonsensical comment with name-calling too. You seem to have wrought yourself into a frenzy, maybe you should have a cup of tea and read it again. The bottom line is, you made a straw man argument as a fake ad hominem attack, then you said pointing out your logical fallacy is "weak," then you fell into name-calling and profanity. Somehow I had the misimpression you worked as a teacher, but really that's got to be way off, even a 12yo could do a more convincing impression of a teacher.

I would dignify you with a response, but I have you on ignore (but I just had to open the thread in another browser to see your response, rendering the ignore feature useless)

Flying fish! Ttouche', lol

Yeah, so I opened another browser to try see his last comment in this sad back and forth and then to recap for anyone who's interested. It doesn't mean I will be opening another browser every time I see from the main page that he or you have commented on something.

That doesn't render all the countless times in the future that I won't see his or your comments in whatever threads I'm reading from chrome.

And I feel complete on this now. Even more so after reading his last comment. He doesn't know how to be wrong gracefully.

marcus says

to recap for anyone who's interested

LOL probably no one is interested, and if anyone is they would see your nonsensical "recap" doesn't fit the facts. Anyway this thread isn't about you or me or your weird obsession with me (putting me on ignore but then opening another browser to see my comments). You call me names and resort to profanity, and pretend to ignore me while using another browser to stalk my comments, it's just hilarious, but it does prove Dan was right about you all along, actually you might be even more dysfunctional than he guessed.

Did marcus say something? I wouldn't know, or care, because I have him on ignore,,,,but I just can't resist! Let me download another browser, and ill go check on there. But mark my word, when I get back, he's going all the way back on ignore! That oughtta show him

Download another browser ? I have Chrome, firefox and explorer installed already. If I was on a mac, I'm sure I would have safari too. Yeah, I could see your cute comment from the front page (errc).

marcus says

Yeah, I could see your cute comment from the front page.

Well, at least you think my comments are cute. I'm flattered. Really. Your ignoring-while-replying isn't weird or creepy or disingenuous at all, wait maybe it is.

Nice article by Ayaan Hirsi Ali

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rdf_files/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali_Islam.pdf