patrick.net

suspiria_2 says

the colleges play along though, by changing the edition required every year. the boards must get some kind of kickback out of this, as it definitely doesn't serve their students.

Yep. It's ridiculous to need a new edition every year. Especially in things like mathematics. It's not like 2+2=4 needs to be updated.

This is what I just heard, here in Las Vegas kids are also getting an iPad but the parents sign for it too, I haven't heard about the insurance payment but I think the parents are on the hook for it.

suspiria_2 says

could be mistaken, but the cost of maintenance increases over time. so you're only paying the construction costs initially. after that, you're paying just to keep the thing standing while you drive over it.

I suspect the bulk of the money goes to defined pension benefits for the tool takers, not the roads.

Electronic books may become cheaper and lighter and better than textbooks, which have been a very heavy and lucrative racket for years. Kids are weighed down by so many heavy books they need to put their backpacks over both shoulders or risk back trouble, while the Texas school boards distort education nationwide, and the publishers make $$$ from new editions.

suspiria_2 says

the cost of [bridge] maintenance increases over time. so [tolls are] only paying the construction costs initially. after that, you're paying just to keep the thing standing while you drive over it.

Actually for public bridges usually the public pays the construction cost, then the tolls pay for maintenance. The tolls increase as the maintenance costs increase. I mention it only because it sometimes becomes a wedge issue on local newspaper comments: motorists complain about pedestrian and cyclist "freeloaders" wanting access to the new Bay Bridge, but in fact everyone is paying billions for the new bridge and only motorists will have access. [update - thanks suspiria_2 - the public pays initially with bonds but the tolls are supposed to repay the bonds over time.] There isn't a constitutional right to bridges, but there is a constitutional right to education.

aren't you just restating what i said?

three R's refresher course, incoming.

KILLERJANE says

This is what I just heard, here in Las Vegas kids are also getting an iPad but the parents sign for it too, I haven't heard about the insurance payment but I think the parents are on the hook for it.

The insurance payment and the liability are on average the same fee. That's why people buy insurance: to have a certain small fee rather than the risk of a larger one.

Imposing any obligatory fee on free public education negates the "free" part of that.

State law already says parents are liable for WILLFUL damage to school property, and I have no problem with that. The problem I have is with schools buying expensive equipment and pushing ALL risk of damage (which equals the cost of the insurance in theory) onto parents as a way to shirk the school's own obligation.

Hey buddy,

Get with the program. Only the rich deserves the education. Not you.

Now we did QE3, there are more money out there. We need to raise the price of goods and services to milk more money out of you.

suspiria_2 says

aren't you just restating what i said?

Who and what? If you were referring to my comment about bridges, then no, you said tolls pay for construction, in fact for public bridges the public usually pays for construction. There are some private toll roads, mainly in Europe, where tolls may cover both construction and maintenance (I haven't looked into the numbers to see what subsidies they might get), but generally in America the public pays for construction and the tolls pay only for maintenance.

The insurance payment and the liability are on average the same fee. That's why people buy insurance: to have a certain small fee rather than the risk of a larger one.

In a free market that would be true. (In for-profit insurance, the premium would be a little higher than the expected risk, but people buy anyway because most people are risk averse.) In a lemon socialist / crony capitalist market, the insurance premium grossly exceeds the expected liability, and the markup is shared with politicians who make it mandatory, so people have to buy it regardless of what it's worth.

BTW, many homeowner's insurance policies include coverage for personal property even off site. So, if you lend your iPad to your daughter, it might be covered under your homeowner's policy at no additional cost. Check your policy if you have one, or if you're shopping for one then ask about this feature, sometimes it's a rider. Homeowner's insurance can actually be a reasonable deal, because it isn't mandatory so the insurers have to offer reasonable prices. The issue is they try not to show you the policy until after you've bought, but instead they may offer a trial period where you buy the policy, then you get to read it, and if you don't want it you can cancel.

Nobody says

Now we did QE3, there are more money out there. We need to raise the price of goods and services to milk more money out of you.

Yes, but it's not really about the money. The Fed can print an infinite amount of money.

It's about milking more labor out of you. The Fed is trying to force you to work longer and get nothing for it. One way they do it is to destroy everyone's dollar savings and make prices go up.

You are being forced to work for the non-productive rich, just because they own all the income-producing assets and you do not. That's the goal. Expanding the money supply is just the means, not the goal.

I don't mind people making money from producing something useful (God bless them all!), but making money by trapping labor to make them the permanent servants of a non-productive owner class is just wrong.

curious2 says

Who and what? If you were referring to my comment about bridges, then no, you said tolls pay for construction, in fact for public bridges the public usually pays for construction. There are some private toll roads, mainly in Europe, where tolls may cover both construction and maintenance (I haven't looked into the numbers to see what subsidies they might get), but generally in America the public pays for construction and the tolls pay only for maintenance.

i don't want to totally drag this thread off course with a comment regarding bridges, but:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/tolling/520/FAQ.htm

"Q. Why is WSDOT tolling the SR 520 Bridge?
A. Tolling on the SR 520 Bridge helps pay for the new bridge, scheduled to open in 2014. The new bridge is designed to withstand major earthquakes and windstorms, providing increased safety."

http://goldengatebridge.org/research/ConstructionPrimeContr.php

"The last of the construction bonds was retired in 1971, with $35 million in principal and nearly $39 million in interest being paid entirely from Bridge tolls. With the exception of the Sausalito Lateral approach road (Alexander Avenue today) which was built as a federal WPA project, there was no state or federal funds involved in building the Golden Gate Bridge."

Good idea! Maybe I should start a thread asking everyone to call the governor about this too?

Well, everyone likes you, but I wonder how many really understand where you are coming from on this.

Personally I don't get it and won't. If my kids school was doing this, I might wish they weren't charging me, but I would think it's cool and it's worth it.
Presumably maybe title one funds would cover the cost for the kids who are eligible for the free lunch program.

But yeah, I totally don't get what bothers you here. I understand exactly what you're saying. "It's the law." But I would not and could not have the feelings you do about it. In your shoes I just would not be the slightest bit bothered by it.

I'm just saying that's me, and it's subjective (not whether it is illegal, but whether I would have a problem with it).

I can't figure out how to get an emergency injunction though. I looked at the San Mateo County court website for hours and got nowhere. Calling didn't help either. The people at the county court offices are not helpful.

I'm assuming that you've tried talking to the teacher(s) and/or principal? I would think that you would be able to present them with a reasonable argument on why she should be able to submit homework another way and, if the teacher must withhold the iPad, that they could do it in a discreet way.

Yes, personally talked to the Superintendent yesterday after he didn't answer my emails.

I proposed either:

A. The verbiage on the agreement be made legal by not requiring parents to be liable for any and all damage no matter what the cause, but instead be liable only for willful damage to school property, as is already the state law.

or

B. We be allowed to use our own iPad. I have no problem with them reformatting it or whatever.

He said he'd get back to me after conferring with the school's lawyer. In the meantime, I agreed to be liable for the iPad for the next week so my daughter can use it at home now. So I'm in waiting mode, and my daughter is happy for now.

marcus says

I totally don't get what bothers you here. I understand exactly what you're saying. "It's the law."

So you don't get it, but you do get it?

I want to be able to have some respect for our laws. They should say what they mean and mean what they say, or why have laws at all?

I propose a book, a pen and paper.

less than $5

iPad greater than $500

Ridiculous.

I don't want my children touching an iPad

suspiria_2 says

i don't want to totally drag this thread off course with a comment regarding bridges,

Thanks - I read further, and the same is true even of the SF Bay Bridge; the tolls repaid the construction costs within 20 years:

http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/news_events/bridge/sfobay.html

...and even bonds for the new section, which will cost 100x more than the whole bridge cost initially, are supposed to be repaid by tolls eventually:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/business/global/26bridge.html?pagewanted=all

I am glad to know that, and I hope it will work out. Now back to the original topic.

Here is the status page for AB 1575:

http://leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/bill/asm/ab_1551-1600/ab_1575_bill_20120910_status.html

It's pretty cool. I assume they keep it updated all the time so that as soon as the governor signs it, everyone will know. Assuming he does sign it.

marcus says

I totally don't get what bothers you here. I understand exactly what you're saying. "It's the law."

So you don't get it, but you do get it?

Logic is not a strong suit for Marcus. For him, it's all about his own subjective feelings, regardless of facts and reason. That can be seen above, where he accused me of coming to this thread to troll him, when in fact I posted the first comment. (Perhaps he thinks I can read his mind and anticipate where he is going to comment, but really there are more interesting things to read.) At least he doesn't call you names, sometimes with profanity thrown in, and accuse you of trolling.

Politicofact says

I propose a book, a pen and paper.

less than $5

iPad greater than $500

Ridiculous.

I don't want my children touching an iPad

I concur.

Seems like everyone's trying to go electronic EVERYTHING, which is really making life more difficult than it needs to be.

On a semi-parallel note, we just started homeschooling our 3 and 4 year old. Only been at it for a couple months and my 4 year old is already at the 1st grade level, when technically, he shouldn't be in kindergarten until next year (fall of 2013).

Total cost = $0.

We got a library card, a pad of paper and a pencil. The kids a sponge.

My 3 year old is right up there with him.

joshuatrio says

we just started homeschooling our 3 and 4 year old.

Many more parents are doing that, for many reasons:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/01/29/why-urban-educated-parents-are-turning-to-diy-education.html

Some electronics can help too, e.g. free access to Khan Academy and YouTube. Even MIT and Berkeley are putting free courses online. The iPad can be very helpful for some kids, and there are many free education apps. I still support free public education though, because not all parents have the time or other resources for home schooling.

Richard Feynman has some amusing comments about the textbook selection process and how corrupt it is in his book "Surely You Must Be Joking Mr. Feynman!"

Always good to hear a reference to Feynman. ;-)
The other place to learn about the textbook crap game is in "Lies My Teacher Told Me"...it is especially critical of the history books and process. Paraphrasing, "When students take college courses, it is always better that they have some background in math, science, English, or any other subject: except History. With History, the less they have to be untaught, the better."

I think the web is a wonderful resource for kids, especially things like the Wikipedia and Khan Academy. And I have seen some useful programs for teaching trigonometry and other things that benefit from animated diagrams.

But they're also ephemeral. They can change or just disappear at any time in the way a physical book cannot. And books don't need batteries. Books are superior technology that way.

Books are superior technology that way.

Throw that Ipad out

Nobody says

Hey buddy,

Get with the program. Only the rich deserves the education. Not you.

Now we did QE3, there are more money out there. We need to raise the price of goods and services to milk more money out of you.

Cute. Everyone needs some kind of education......schools, OTOH: they don't. Schools are only needed by the state and their most favored construction industries.

curious2 says

Electronic books may become cheaper and lighter and better than textbooks, which have been a very heavy and lucrative racket for years. Kids are weighed down by so many heavy books they need to put their backpacks over both shoulders or risk back trouble, while the Texas school boards distort education nationwide, and the publishers make $$$ from new editions.

Yup. Perhaps the 'test' for a new teacher is whether they can put together their own electronic textbook from Wikipedia, etc. in the 3 months of summer.
Open Source Textbooks 'R Us....
Oh...that wouldn't give the school board time to review it, so there might have to be some lag in there from year-to-year.
Personally, I think textbook selection should be up to the graduating classes, and a lot more teaching of underclassmen should be done by upperclassmen: starting around what is generally considered 3rd grade.

So you don't get it, but you do get it?

I can not relate to the way you feel about it, but I don't believe this has anything to do with my not understanding your reasoning.

Patrick: I wouldn't worry too much about your daughter being hurt by this. It will instead give her respect in the long run from the administrators, even if they try to make things harder. My daughter had a run-in over the shop teacher only inviting boys to sign up for shop class. It was one of many over the years leading up to her salutatorian graduation this year (missed valedictorian because of a technicality on credits and advanced placement classes). Schools and their administrators need to be taught that some kids are smarter and/or less docile than they are.

marcus says

I can not relate to the way you feel about it, but I don't believe this has anything to do with my not understanding your reasoning.

OK sorry I wasn't as polite as I should have been. You don't have to feel the same way, but I do feel that the schools should obey really basic laws like the state constitution.

OK sorry I wasn't as polite as I should have been.

I didn't think you were impolite. Just sharing my point of view.

I actually find it kind of interesting, that is the degree to which I can't relate to it.

But I have heard some other things you say about education and unions, (not asking to go there) which I can't begin to relate to either (issues where I have an obvious bias). It seems like (and I could be wrong) that you have some issues with public education in general, possibly for some complex reasons.

Not at all. I absolutely love public education!

I just have issues with being told I have to make some illegal payment, and with teachers' unions prevention of promotion or demotion based on merit, to the detriment of the students.

marcus, You've developed a bit of a siege mentality (which is reasonable, given some of the folks you do battle with on Pat.net). I too love public education and will be voting for Proposition 32.

with teachers' unions prevention of promotion or demotion based on merit, to the detriment of the students.

This is not a simple issue, but there sure is plenty of propaganda and over simplification about it out there.

In the countries that have the very best public schools, and also at the very best public schools in this country, they find ways to support teachers and help them get better, rather than focusing too much on tests and or a carrot and stick to "promotions."

This is an interesting Ted talk about motivation.

http://blog.ted.com/2009/08/24/the_surprising/

I think tying pay to test scores is bad for teachers and students.

By the way, I have issues with too much emphasis on seniority in determining who gets to teach what, but I don't have a problem with it being a factor. I don't have a problem with test score improvement being a factor in our evaluation. But tying it to money? This is a problem in that preparing for tests and learning critical thinking and problem solving skills are not one and the same. (I'm talking about Math - but this is even more of a problem in other subjects ).

I agree that teachers should not be judged by test scores. That is putting the cart before the horse of political correctness. It protects administrators by abusing the front line teachers and lets the s*** roll downhill.

To be totally politically incorrect, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit, comrades, and if students do not present either the aptitude or capability to learn, they should be routed into trades to leave the real learners and teachers to do what they do best.

If society wants to let the slow starters play catch up later by offering education to people who have become sorted out, then age twenty to forty is still plenty of time to get an education and have a career.

EBGuy says

marcus, You've developed a bit of a siege mentality (which is reasonable, given some of the folks you do battle with on Pat.net).

Marcus' tantrums including name-calling, profanity, and obviously false accusations aren't reasonable. If Marcus is actually a teacher, they are an argument for home schooling.

I also agree that test score or seniority should not be the sole factors in determining anything.

But the unions so far have been implacably opposed to all measures of teacher quality, all the time, with the result that bad teachers simply cannot ever be fired based on their bad performance, and good teachers cannot ever get promotions based on their good performance.

Thats just wrong, and the students stuffer for the unions pig-headedness.

with the result that bad teachers simply cannot ever be fired based on their bad performance, and good teachers cannot ever get promotions based on their good performance.

Neither of these are totally true. Bad teachers are routinely pressured to either get better or their life is made difficult, and they can be fired.
But it does vary from school to school and district to district. Certainly the trend is toward it being way easier to fire teachers. Good teachers are rewarded in subtle ways for doing well, because the school wants them to stay.

You are too quick to buy the propaganda Patrick.

the unions pig-headedness

This is really an ignorant attitude (no offense intended Patrick). The union is serving its function.

You see ads that say unions intentionally want to protect sexual molesters of children from being fired. Do you think this is true ?

I don't have time to go way in to this. But it's sort like blaming criminal defense attorneys for defending criminals, as if they are increasing crime by doing so. They are doing their job, because gosh darn it, sometimes the accused is innocent.

Do we need to have a system where innocent people who are falsely accused can get a fair trial ? Of course ! It's one of those yin yang things. IF you only consider the yang side, of course it appears unbalanced.

Believe me though. Any teacher who is known, or even highly suspected of that kind of thing is of course removed from the class room immediately. But yes, the union will go to bat for them a little, to give them a chance to at least defend them self, or make their case.

It needs to be neither too easy nor too hard to fire a teacher. At least that is the reasonable position of the union. But it's pretty easy to turn that around as someone here surely will, and to say that there should be absolutely no protection from being fired from a job teaching, and there should be very little job security to it. IF you are a teacher and have invested your life in the profession, at 58, and they can find a 28 year old that will do it for 15K less pay, and less benefits,...then hey, replace the guy.

Isn't that the American way ?

You either have a union or you don't. You can pressure things to change, in terms of how easy it is to fire someone, or the way that we are evaluated (or even merit pay - whcih is a mistake - and I'm not saying that because I don't think I would benefit).

But you have a union or you don't. There isn't a lot of in between. And without the union, the quality of public school teachers goes down.

Do the Math.

But that's what they want.

Privatization. It may even have some advantages, in terms of how fast some changes can be made (this is only the near term).

But ultimately it's terrible. Profit to the top managers. And ultimately fuck the teachers and the students, at the schools that aren't the top tier most expensive schools.

further to your point, if they eventually do privatize then it will be in favor of a system that will basically force the less financially well-off parents to either do without entirely, or send their kids to the McDonald's of education.

then i'm sure some would like to pillory the parents yet again for 'buying only crap' education for their kids.

damned if you do, damned if you don't.

this comment vis-a-vis 'the duds, and how we should just force them into the trades' is foolish. i don't think true duds would do well in the trades. it takes skills, albeit of different and more hands-on variety to be a good tradesman, and the comment is very derogatorily class-based. it's pretty much very little use to say "for those who plan to go to college and become engineers, doctors etc. we can help you, but the rest should just give up and resign themselves to a life of ditch digging now because you are wasting everyone's time."

i'm personally in favor of the guild system and think it should be adopted vigorously and early, but it's very difficult to sell true apprenticeships nowadays. after asking a shoe-repair guy about it once, he said what i have since heard and read over and over: if i hire an apprentice, i'll have to pay him to stand around for a year and absorb stuff before he makes me any money. apprentices appear to not be economically feasible, and it seems impossible in the climate we have today to ask someone to increases someone else's future bottom line at cost to themselves.

suspiria_2 says

it's pretty much very little use to say "for those who plan to go to college and become engineers, doctors etc. we can help you, but the rest should just give up and resign themselves to a life of ditch digging now because you are wasting everyone's time."

On the one hand you have a point, but on the other, there are countries such as Germany that seem to do this fairly well. YOu get tracked for higher education or not, but the not track includes a lot of valued training with various options. I think this makes sense, and the success of their economy bears that out.

Then again I would have reservations about tracking to an extreme degree at a young age. How does a child know what they want to do or will be able to do? Since so much has to do with drive and discipline, who knows how much of these attributes might be there a few years later (for a family that underestimates their child's potential - based on scores of a 12 year old).

Still this is interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany