patrick.net

So you don't get it, but you do get it?

I can not relate to the way you feel about it, but I don't believe this has anything to do with my not understanding your reasoning.

Patrick: I wouldn't worry too much about your daughter being hurt by this. It will instead give her respect in the long run from the administrators, even if they try to make things harder. My daughter had a run-in over the shop teacher only inviting boys to sign up for shop class. It was one of many over the years leading up to her salutatorian graduation this year (missed valedictorian because of a technicality on credits and advanced placement classes). Schools and their administrators need to be taught that some kids are smarter and/or less docile than they are.

marcus says

I can not relate to the way you feel about it, but I don't believe this has anything to do with my not understanding your reasoning.

OK sorry I wasn't as polite as I should have been. You don't have to feel the same way, but I do feel that the schools should obey really basic laws like the state constitution.

OK sorry I wasn't as polite as I should have been.

I didn't think you were impolite. Just sharing my point of view.

I actually find it kind of interesting, that is the degree to which I can't relate to it.

But I have heard some other things you say about education and unions, (not asking to go there) which I can't begin to relate to either (issues where I have an obvious bias). It seems like (and I could be wrong) that you have some issues with public education in general, possibly for some complex reasons.

Not at all. I absolutely love public education!

I just have issues with being told I have to make some illegal payment, and with teachers' unions prevention of promotion or demotion based on merit, to the detriment of the students.

marcus, You've developed a bit of a siege mentality (which is reasonable, given some of the folks you do battle with on Pat.net). I too love public education and will be voting for Proposition 32.

with teachers' unions prevention of promotion or demotion based on merit, to the detriment of the students.

This is not a simple issue, but there sure is plenty of propaganda and over simplification about it out there.

In the countries that have the very best public schools, and also at the very best public schools in this country, they find ways to support teachers and help them get better, rather than focusing too much on tests and or a carrot and stick to "promotions."

This is an interesting Ted talk about motivation.

http://blog.ted.com/2009/08/24/the_surprising/

I think tying pay to test scores is bad for teachers and students.

By the way, I have issues with too much emphasis on seniority in determining who gets to teach what, but I don't have a problem with it being a factor. I don't have a problem with test score improvement being a factor in our evaluation. But tying it to money? This is a problem in that preparing for tests and learning critical thinking and problem solving skills are not one and the same. (I'm talking about Math - but this is even more of a problem in other subjects ).

I agree that teachers should not be judged by test scores. That is putting the cart before the horse of political correctness. It protects administrators by abusing the front line teachers and lets the s*** roll downhill.

To be totally politically incorrect, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit, comrades, and if students do not present either the aptitude or capability to learn, they should be routed into trades to leave the real learners and teachers to do what they do best.

If society wants to let the slow starters play catch up later by offering education to people who have become sorted out, then age twenty to forty is still plenty of time to get an education and have a career.

EBGuy says

marcus, You've developed a bit of a siege mentality (which is reasonable, given some of the folks you do battle with on Pat.net).

Marcus' tantrums including name-calling, profanity, and obviously false accusations aren't reasonable. If Marcus is actually a teacher, they are an argument for home schooling.

I also agree that test score or seniority should not be the sole factors in determining anything.

But the unions so far have been implacably opposed to all measures of teacher quality, all the time, with the result that bad teachers simply cannot ever be fired based on their bad performance, and good teachers cannot ever get promotions based on their good performance.

Thats just wrong, and the students stuffer for the unions pig-headedness.

with the result that bad teachers simply cannot ever be fired based on their bad performance, and good teachers cannot ever get promotions based on their good performance.

Neither of these are totally true. Bad teachers are routinely pressured to either get better or their life is made difficult, and they can be fired.
But it does vary from school to school and district to district. Certainly the trend is toward it being way easier to fire teachers. Good teachers are rewarded in subtle ways for doing well, because the school wants them to stay.

You are too quick to buy the propaganda Patrick.

the unions pig-headedness

This is really an ignorant attitude (no offense intended Patrick). The union is serving its function.

You see ads that say unions intentionally want to protect sexual molesters of children from being fired. Do you think this is true ?

I don't have time to go way in to this. But it's sort like blaming criminal defense attorneys for defending criminals, as if they are increasing crime by doing so. They are doing their job, because gosh darn it, sometimes the accused is innocent.

Do we need to have a system where innocent people who are falsely accused can get a fair trial ? Of course ! It's one of those yin yang things. IF you only consider the yang side, of course it appears unbalanced.

Believe me though. Any teacher who is known, or even highly suspected of that kind of thing is of course removed from the class room immediately. But yes, the union will go to bat for them a little, to give them a chance to at least defend them self, or make their case.

It needs to be neither too easy nor too hard to fire a teacher. At least that is the reasonable position of the union. But it's pretty easy to turn that around as someone here surely will, and to say that there should be absolutely no protection from being fired from a job teaching, and there should be very little job security to it. IF you are a teacher and have invested your life in the profession, at 58, and they can find a 28 year old that will do it for 15K less pay, and less benefits,...then hey, replace the guy.

Isn't that the American way ?

You either have a union or you don't. You can pressure things to change, in terms of how easy it is to fire someone, or the way that we are evaluated (or even merit pay - whcih is a mistake - and I'm not saying that because I don't think I would benefit).

But you have a union or you don't. There isn't a lot of in between. And without the union, the quality of public school teachers goes down.

Do the Math.

But that's what they want.

Privatization. It may even have some advantages, in terms of how fast some changes can be made (this is only the near term).

But ultimately it's terrible. Profit to the top managers. And ultimately fuck the teachers and the students, at the schools that aren't the top tier most expensive schools.

further to your point, if they eventually do privatize then it will be in favor of a system that will basically force the less financially well-off parents to either do without entirely, or send their kids to the McDonald's of education.

then i'm sure some would like to pillory the parents yet again for 'buying only crap' education for their kids.

damned if you do, damned if you don't.

this comment vis-a-vis 'the duds, and how we should just force them into the trades' is foolish. i don't think true duds would do well in the trades. it takes skills, albeit of different and more hands-on variety to be a good tradesman, and the comment is very derogatorily class-based. it's pretty much very little use to say "for those who plan to go to college and become engineers, doctors etc. we can help you, but the rest should just give up and resign themselves to a life of ditch digging now because you are wasting everyone's time."

i'm personally in favor of the guild system and think it should be adopted vigorously and early, but it's very difficult to sell true apprenticeships nowadays. after asking a shoe-repair guy about it once, he said what i have since heard and read over and over: if i hire an apprentice, i'll have to pay him to stand around for a year and absorb stuff before he makes me any money. apprentices appear to not be economically feasible, and it seems impossible in the climate we have today to ask someone to increases someone else's future bottom line at cost to themselves.

suspiria_2 says

it's pretty much very little use to say "for those who plan to go to college and become engineers, doctors etc. we can help you, but the rest should just give up and resign themselves to a life of ditch digging now because you are wasting everyone's time."

On the one hand you have a point, but on the other, there are countries such as Germany that seem to do this fairly well. YOu get tracked for higher education or not, but the not track includes a lot of valued training with various options. I think this makes sense, and the success of their economy bears that out.

Then again I would have reservations about tracking to an extreme degree at a young age. How does a child know what they want to do or will be able to do? Since so much has to do with drive and discipline, who knows how much of these attributes might be there a few years later (for a family that underestimates their child's potential - based on scores of a 12 year old).

Still this is interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany

marcus says

Then again I would have reservations about tracking to an extreme degree at a young age. How does a child know what they want to do or will be able to do?

Coming from a guy who has consistently scored extremely high on standardized tests: (I have often wished there could be a job where I just took standardized tests all day - tutoring for the GMAT is not nearly lucrative enough)

This would be a huge mistake. I have no problem admiting that I have been outperformed occasionally by peers in both my educational and professional careers who I am quite sure would have scored lower than I on any standardized test.

To do this on a large scale would be a detriment to our collective growth.

We have already too much unrealized potential in poor or inner-city areas lost to the capitalist property tax-based system of public school funding.

Without admitting they did anything wrong, the district is now going to allow my daughter to take home the iPad even without my buying insurance or taking on all liability for it. The state laws regarding willful damage to school property are sufficient for them.

So problem solved as far as my personal situation goes!

Now I just hope that AB 1575 gets passed so that other parents will have an easier time protesting illegal charges for public schools in the future.

Assemblyman Rich Gordon was a great help in this by simply calling the superintendent's office. I support Rich for re-election in November!

They are buying you off. But now they have to consider their fees, so you made an impact.

just you wait 'til the other parents get the word.

watch-- half of them will be like the comment above about how you're so petty. the other half will bumrush the admin. office for their own refunds.

suspiria_2 says

about how you're so petty

Yeah, that pesky state constitutional guarantee of free public education.

Why would anyone be concerned about that?

suspiria_2 says

half of them will be like the comment above about how you're so petty. the other half will bumrush the admin. office for their own refunds.

Most of them will wish they had done the same thing, but they probably don't have the time because they're busy working two jobs to pay the mortgage. Nuisance fees and rebate slippage both depend on people not having enough time. Few would seriously argue against contesting an illegal fee, just like nobody would argue against completing a rebate form after buying the product; most people recognize the legitimacy of it, they just don't have the time.

Wow! It sounds like your daughters school district just opened up a can of worms. I can not imagine that giving high schoolers fragile iPads is a good idea. I would imagine that some of the parents that signed an agreement to assume liability will not be okay when their kids iPad is lost or stolen. To me it seems like if the school wants to require the iPad they should treat them like a text book. If you loose it, you get a student debt. Meaning that you can not participate in extra curricular activities until the debt is paid but you can still have your free education.

Woohoo! Governor Brown signed AB 1575, reaffirming that public schools cannot charge mandatory fees, and creating a mechanism to complain about illegal fees without filing a lawsuit:

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/parentsandthepublic/2012/10/fees_for_public_schools_draw_suits_settlement.html

In this case, the government seems to be functioning properly.

thunderlips11 says

Textbooks ain't that much cheaper than the tablets.

Textbooks are indeed much more expensive than tablets, mostly because of copyright laws and the publishing industry, but also it's far more expensive to produce dozens of textbooks than a single tablet.

The government should just pay a person $1 million to write the definitive textbook on a subject, and then give away the content to everyone. It would make the textbook cost less than a penny per print and still incentivize the best people in the world to write the best textbooks on any subject.

rando says

Students could probably learn better from the Wikipedia than from lots of the textbooks I've seen and used.

Wikipedia The Internet

The last thing we need is students learning that Plato was an ancient Hawaiian weatherman and surfer taught by Barney the Purple Dinosaur. There are sooooo many better sources of real knowledge than Propogandapedia.

And I'm not the only one who says so.

I'm adding your story to my long list of reasons not to have kids.

This is purely big government and big business coming together. Electronic surveillance for future profit and tracking citizens. The proof to my statement is that they are making it a requirement.

Partly behind this, is the break your landlord is getting on his property taxes.

Patrick says

I called the ACLU

What in the hell for, they are the King making business now. You're not running for King Is You?

You should just talk to the director directly, this isn't right.

Why are we even talking about this? The far left is just as bad as the far right.