patrick.net

There are a lot of educational apps for the iPad. My three year old loves to learn and now knows all his abc's, numbers, colors, and shapes. Next comes reading. He might have that down by four at this rate. My kids love the iPad, and I've sort of written it off as a kid toy. I got a Griffin case for it so it's damn near indestructible, and trained them to plug it in when not using it. Definitely it's a win in the toy department, with potential to provide lots of learning for kids ready for that.

i know that you, and probably most of the parents in that area can readily afford the fee and that the cost is NOT the point.

but...it should be. what if there was some unfortunate student in that school that was in the same situation as your daughter? marginalized, and falling grades due to no access to the required equipment? isn't that a discriminatory issue?

if they want the devices and all of the benefits of using them, the school board should have budgeted for the insurance themselves.

as for the comment someone made about 'paying for other people's kids', i believe there's enough justification for it under public health and public safety concerns. what is the alternative? allow them to run wild, become beggers and never be able to find any employment except as ditch-diggers? some will undoubtedly do this anyway due to natural inclination, but the smarter, more enterprising ones will simply find illegal means to obtain the same 'stuff'. generally, by stealing yours.

This is petty. Be a father first, activist last. What's the point, the school is trying to do something good by issuing ipad as an education tool, which obviouly is not a tool that is enjoyed by 95% of other public schools.

Since I was pretty sure that's illegal, I complained

sarcasmOn Citizen, how dare you question Public Servants, your Betters? sarcasmOff

suspiria_2 says

if they want the devices and all of the benefits of using them, the school board should have budgeted for the insurance themselves.

Yes, I agree. Remember, these are not optional devices.

SFace says

This is petty. Be a father first, activist last.

I did my fatherly duty and took responsibility for damage for it for now, but it's not at all petty. It's huge. Illegal fees a big problem in California and are violating the basic idea of universal free K-12 education.

Either a school is private or it's public. If it's public, it should really be public.

I did my fatherly duty and took responsibility for damage for it for now, but it's not at all petty. It's huge. Illegal fees a big problem in California and are violating the basic idea of universal free K-12 education.

In your world, you think about illegal fees and principles. As a parent, I think about the classroom and what is the best classroom for my child.

suspiria_2 says

as for the comment someone made about 'paying for other people's kids', i believe there's enough justification for it under public health and public safety concerns.

I agree, in fact it is much better to pay for education than health insurance. Education is the best predictor of longevity (health insurance pales in comparison) and confers many other benefits including a slightly better chance that the next generation will be able to pay off the massive debts that this generation is piling onto them. The primary beneficiaries of most medical spending are the revenue recipients, but everyone benefits from free public education. Alas California is cutting education spending to increase medical spending, and prisons and high speed trains to nowhere. I wish we could cut those other things and provide truly free public education.

I think the fact that the school has the kids using iPads is great. It's definitely the future.

But they should probably just have an honor system, and the tax payer should eat the losses of all the students who lose, break or steal the iPads.

And I bet you're right, the insurance policy of $42 for a year of iPad use seems unreasonably high. It's probably almost all profit going into someone's pocket.

Yeah, $42 ! That implies that nearly one in 10 iPads per year will be broken, lost or stolen by a student. What a rip off.

Either a school is private or it's public. If it's public, it should really be public.

I went to a public high school, and we bought our books at the beginning of each year and sold them back at the end of the year, except for some of the soft cover books that we had to buy to keep.

All I know is that if I were in your shoes, I would not be bothered by this at all. It's like a rental fee, and seems reasonable to me. But it is subjective.
This opinion has nothing to do with my being a teacher.

Is it a charter school ?

Dreadful idea.

SFace says

This is petty. Be a father first, activist last. What's the point, the school is trying to do something good by issuing ipad as an education tool, which obviouly is not a tool that is enjoyed by 95% of other public schools.

I agree.

lets ban all ipads and other costly computer learning tools from schools so we can argue about constitutionAL law with children.

dumb

marcus says

This opinion has nothing to do with my being a teacher.

It is nearly impossible for a human to separate entirely his economic self-interest from his opinions. But, I can't believe Marcus is actually a teacher, so maybe his opinion has nothing to do with his pretending to be one.

And don't worry, Marcus won't be offended by this comment, he has me on ignore (except when he opens a separate browser so he can pretend to ignore me while also replying to my comments, "I'm ignoring you," I wonder if he sticks his tongue out at his computer at the same time).

iPad is not necessary in school.

marcus says

Is it a charter school ?

No, not charter, just vanilla public school.

It's not the money. I've already done way too much work protesting this to make the money relevant. It's the idea that schools can break the law and no one will challenge them on it. And this law is not just any law. The availability of free public education is essential to giving everyone a chance to succeed on their own merits. It's written into the state constitution.

Since its adoption in 1879, the California Constitution has required that the state provide a system of free public schools. In 1984, the California Supreme Court ruled unequivocally in Hartzell v. Connell that “[i]n guaranteeing ‘free’ public schools, article IX section 5 fixes the precise extent of the financial burden which may be imposed on the right to an education — none.”

SFace says

In your world, you think about illegal fees and principles. As a parent, I think about the classroom and what is the best classroom for my child.

And apparently you don't think about what's best for anyone else's children at all. Maybe $42 is not much to me, but there are kids around here who really cannot afford it. And all over the state as well.

Do they deserve a free education or not? And don't give me any crap about making them beg for humiliating vouchers and exemptions.

The availability of free public education is essential to giving everyone a chance to succeed on their own merits. It's written into the state constitution.

Yes, but what if a school decides to go way above and beyond what they must provide, to offer a little something extra, based on the assumption that parents will gladly either put up a security deposit (I have heard of a charter school that does that with iPads), or pay a small insurance charge for having that for their child.

I would never be a school administrator. ButI if I were, I could see myself making such a decision, and thinking it was good, and estimating that parent would mostly like it.

Maybe they got a grant for the iPads, but not enough to pay for yearly maintenance and replacement.

As a taxpayer, I am paying for "free" public education, which is a public good that I believe in. I expect what I'm paying for to be provided as per the social contract, i.e. the Constitution and laws of the state. For "extras" above the budget, there are bake sales and tax subsidies (which we all pay for) for teachers who provide whatever extras they can't get the school to budget for.

I also believe in free public libraries, and I would object to anyone putting a paywall at the front door.

I also believe in providing vaccines and true emergency medical care as a public service, and I only wish more people would demand that as well instead of the lobby-driven system we have now. Education is a better predictor of longevity than medical insurance, which means it is literally a matter of life and death, and worth fighting for.

One day that type of technology won't be something extra, but at present California wildy underfunds it schools. Class sizes are high and teachers at many schools have furlough days every year, because the schools can't afford to pay them their 2007 contract salary.

Times are tough.

marcus says

what if a school decides to go way above and beyond what they must provide, to offer a little something extra

It wasn't offered. It was demanded.

marcus said:
I went to a public high school, and we bought our books at the beginning of each year and sold them back at the end of the year, except for some of the soft cover books that we had to buy to keep.
Where was this?

SFace, I appreciate your contributions and normally let cultural differences slide. But on this one, let me say, welcome to the US of A. We educate the peasants here.

I'll bet Patrick, if you were an illegal alien, the State would buy your kid an iPad of her own.

We wouldn't have any of these problems if parents actually had to pay the full cost of educating their kids instead of trying to stick it to the taxpayers.

marcus says

Class sizes are high

Exactly how high? When I went to elementary and high school, about 33-35 kids per class was the norm.

Along the same lines, I'd like to see most toll booths renamed "tax booths" since in most cases, the road or bridge you are crossing was paid off decades ago.

marcus says

But they should probably just have an honor system, and the tax payer should eat the losses of all the students who lose, break or steal the iPads.

How many of these lost Ipads will end up on eBay?

jvolstad says

if you were an illegal alien, the State would buy your kid an iPad

Around here it's different. If you were an illegal alien, government would pay for comprehensive "free" medical to stop you buying from cheaper Mexican pharmacies, but if you complained about public school administrators demanding payment for "free" education you'd get deported. It's about maximizing revenue at every opportunity.

marcus says

Yeah, $42 ! That implies that nearly one in 10 iPads per year will be broken, lost or stolen by a student. What a rip off.

Perhaps one in 10 is broken, lost, or stolen??? From what I understand, kids break stuff about as often as the proverbial bull in the china shop. Did anyoen think to ask for these statistics from the school?

Is it that hard for the schools to have"Property of xxx" engraved on the case and on a small portion of the screen such that if stolen the pad is less likely to end up on ebay? As for breakage aren't there enclosures that make tablets more or less kidproof?

zzyzzx says

Perhaps one in 10 is broken, lost, or stolen???

Yes. I was being facetious. Same thing in previous comment about honor system and taxpayers paying for it.

IT's a valid question going forward.

Soon students will have to have some sort of portable devices. Hopefully they can eventually get text books that way, intead of the govt buying books that wear out (sometimes in just 4 or 5 years).

But when students do start having portable computers, required, how will it work ?

Will parents have to buy one, as part of school supplies (like notebooks and other supplies now)?

Or will the state have to buy them and replace them even if a child goes through 10 of them in a year (maybe selling them on the street for drug money?).

Seriously. How will this be handled ?

Patrick. How do you suggest it be handled ?

That is based on the assumption that eventually every student will need a portable computer, with some sort of standardization of platform, how do you propose this be handled ? THat is the purchase, maintenance and so on.

Clearly, one thing we know is that the children will temporarily take possession of the devices, and might benefit from some motivation to care for it and not lose it or break it. And yet we know that sometimes they will be broken, lost or stolen.

New Renter says

Is it that hard for the schools to have"Property of xxx" engraved on the case and on a small portion of the screen such that if stolen the pad is less likely to end up on ebay?

Sure. They can even have lojack type devices in them that make them theeir location traceable.

EBGuy says

Where was this?

North suburbs of Chicago. Famous north shore school actually.

zzyzzx says

Exactly how high?

Average is in the mid 40s. For some classes this isn't so much of a problem, for other it is.

marcus says

But when students do start having portable computers, required, how will it work ?

Will parents have to buy one, as part of school supplies (like notebooks and other supplies now).

Or will the state have to buy them and replace them even if a child goes through 10 of them in a year (maybe selling them on the street for drug money?).

Seriously. How will this be handled ?

Patrick. How do you suggest it be handled ?

I like books. Real books.

I don't quite see why each child would need their own portable computer, especially when the electronic content they might need is all available on websites.

But I was saying given the assumption that things go this way, how would you suggest it be handled.

(whether it will or should is a separate question, and an interesting one, but if we were to assume that it is a good thing, how should it be handled?).

EBGuy says

SFace, I appreciate your contributions and normally let cultural differences slide. But on this one, let me say, welcome to the US of A. We educate the peasants here.

I have no idea WTF you are talking about.

Since I was pretty sure that's illegal, I complained and was then allowed to register her without either paying or agreeing to accept all liability for it.
But now she's being singled out for public humiliation as the only student whose parents didn't just roll over and obey. They won't let her take the iPad home, and at the same time they require her to do homework on it. They're using her now to pressure me to agree to the illegal charge.

Not sure what to do in the immediate future though, since this is harming my daughter right now

Making a point at your child's expense is foolish. The child is being harmed over that? That's my sincere advise.

I like books. Real books.

Maybe this is what it's really about. IF he thought it was really awesome that the kids are getting Ipads, he probably wouldn't have minded so much.

Who would have guessed ? Patrick is a closet Luddite.

I like books too. And yet I also like to acquire digital books on my kindle. IT's nice having so many books on the one little device.

I can't imagine that college student 50 years from now will have 5 text books for the five classes they are taking. To the extent that they are using books, won't they be on a kindle or Ipad type device ? Sure, maybe a lot of content will be online, but they will have some sort of very portable device for accessing that too.

marcus says

New Renter says

Is it that hard for the schools to have"Property of xxx" engraved on the case and on a small portion of the screen such that if stolen the pad is less likely to end up on ebay?

Sure. They can even have lojack type devices in them that make them theeir location traceable.

Do the school models have GPS and 4G? If so it should be quite possible for them to be traceable.

marcus says

I can't imagine that college student 50 years from now will have 5 text books for the five classes they are taking. To the extent that they are using books, won't they be on a kindle or Ipad type device ? Sure, maybe a lot of content will be online, but they will have some sort of very portable device for accessing that too.

Some sort of very portable device...Like a book?

marcus says

$42...implies that nearly one in 10 iPads per year will be broken, lost or stolen by a student.

Obviously not a math teacher. Without actually reading the insurance policy, there are far too many variables to translate back and forth between the premium and the expected number of losses. Is there a deductible, and if so how much? Does the policy cover all losses, thefts, and damage, or only under certain circumstances? What would the actual replacement cost be at the discounted price Apple is offering the school? Almost every insurance policy contains limitations, exclusions, conditions, etc. If the insurance policy was required but not shown to you, then a rational person allowed to read it and choose freely would probably say no. In a captive market, where customers are not allowed to refuse, a for-profit insurer would inevitably charge more than the policy is worth.