patrick.net

Reader says

THAT is the point that so many haven't seen, or don't want to see out of their own fear or remorse.

Because it is completely incorrect. Historically, houses appreciate at approximately the rate of inflation. Case Shiller proves this.

Deleting the (repeated) posts that I respond to once again, I see. That's a tired old routine, don't you think? You must be the least inventive and most repetitive troll on the internet.

Bigsby says

Deleting the (repeated) posts that I respond to once again, I see. That's a tired old routine, don't you think? You must be the least inventive and most repetitive troll on the internet.

I think you are calling the kettle BLACK because if YOU want to talk of trolling? Start by just looking at the ridiculous volume of your idiotic one liners on this thread alone.

It is clear who you are.

Reader says

I think you are calling the kettle BLACK because if YOU want to talk of trolling? Start by just looking at the ridiculous volume of your idiotic one liners on this thread alone.

It is clear who you are.

Jog on Reader. They were responses to repeated trolling posts by your best mate. He posted. I responded. He then deleted them. I presume that people aren't supposed to respond to your best mate's repetitive attacks. Strange that you never comment on his trolling. Why is that?

And it's clear what you are.

well it used to be a real estate discussion board, now its more of a 'DONT BUY ANYTHING, EVER BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS A RACKET' board.

of course everything is a racket. duh.

Some of you act like rubes who just moved to the big city. "dont trust no body here, they is all liars n theives! a man promised me he would find me a place to stay for $20 and he dissappeared with muh money!'
hahaha

PockyClipsNow says

of course everything is a racket. duh.

No, there are people out there who are hardworking, pay their bills, help their fellow man, are not greed oriented, don't do anything and everything to try to sucker people into debt with fear or lies and/or lead them into bankruptcy to make a fast buck, and therefore such people do not play part of such rackets.

Everything is NOT a racket THAT is the bigger point to make clear. It's all about not falling for the bullshite and saving your own arse.

PockyClipsNow says

well it used to be a real estate discussion board, now its more of a 'DONT BUY ANYTHING, EVER BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS A RACKET' board.

of course everything is a racket. duh.

Some of you act like rubes who just moved to the big city. "dont trust no body here, they is all liars n theives! a man promised me he would find me a place to stay for $20 and he dissappeared with muh money!'

hahaha

Another property tax bill is coming in the mail soon. Save up.

War says

LIEwog, you forgot to log into the other account.

You are a very boring troll. There's only one person on here with multiple accounts and everyone is perfectly aware that is you. Now why don't you run along and do another one of your searches for a single neighbourhood with a monthly decline so that you can post up yet another of your ridiculous threads.

War says

Can I stay Liewog/bigsby? Please?

You've already been banned numerous times, so obviously you can stay.

PockyClipsNow says

I am prepared to lose 300k if rates rise, prices tank, and I end up facing a 7% mortgage payment (oh the horror). If that happens and I cant get a loan mod, then after squatting for free for 2-7 years I will buy a better home at the new '50% disount' and actually be better off in a nicer house, with a lower tax rate.

Meanwhile I will not be renting anymore.

This totally makes sense in CA since they will not come after you for a deficient judgement anyway. All you lose is your down payment. I will call it an even (financially) if you squat for two years afterwards. But be aware for people in other states. This kind of strategy could back fire on you.

Bigsby says

What's fuzzy about $2000 back on a $1000 outlay?

No one talks about the hidden costs of renting in a dump neighbourhood. Just the same as no investor talks about his loses.

When you see someone beating their chest trying to show how great a deal they got, it is a good chance they are bullshitting you. I am a landlord, know many landlords, it is not that good. It is a choice of where to put your money. I hate these people that come on and say they are amazing, they timed it perfect. They remind me of the 30 minute info-mercials at 2am. They can do no wrong. The more they spend time here trying to convince everyone to act like they do, the more I see them for their insecurities and weaknesses. The people that are making money out there are not on here trying to use it for power and to create a following. They are enjoying their money. Enough said.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

When you see someone beating their chest trying to show how great a deal they got, it is a good chance they are bullshitting you. I am a landlord, know many landlords, it is not that good. It is a choice of where to put your money. I hate these people that come on and say they are amazing, they timed it perfect. They remind me of the 30 minute info-mercials at 2am. They can do no wrong. The more they spend time here trying to convince everyone to act like they do, the more I see them for their insecurities and weaknesses. The people that are making money out there are not on here trying to use it for power and to create a following. They are enjoying their money. Enough said.

And yet you say you're a landlord.

Bigsby says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

When you see someone beating their chest trying to show how great a deal they got, it is a good chance they are bullshitting you. I am a landlord, know many landlords, it is not that good. It is a choice of where to put your money. I hate these people that come on and say they are amazing, they timed it perfect. They remind me of the 30 minute info-mercials at 2am. They can do no wrong. The more they spend time here trying to convince everyone to act like they do, the more I see them for their insecurities and weaknesses. The people that are making money out there are not on here trying to use it for power and to create a following. They are enjoying their money. Enough said.

And yet you say you're a landlord.

5 times over. However, all of my places are in an area where owner costs are very close to renting costs as it should. BTW, none of them are in this crazy socialized housing country.

PockyClipsNow says

Price: 875k
$ Financed: 700k

Loan: 5/1 Interest Only ARM at 2.875 with .25 points (union bank)
Payment: 1677
Prop tax: 912
total: 2588
(im in 28% effective tax bracket so 2588 * .72 = 1863 'after tax write off payment')
Add fire ins of 129 per month and total pmt after tax write off = $1992

The only downside I see is what if inflation pressures kick in along with interest rate increases. (but not real estate inflation).

This has happened in the past.

If interest rates go up and prices go down, then you're in trouble.

Not trying to troll you,...just saying,...that's where the risk is in your strategy here. Otherwise it sounds pretty good.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

5 times over. However, all of my places are in an area where owner costs are very close to renting costs as it should.

Then why are you taking digs at someone whose ownership costs are far less than rental income? He's seemingly made a much better investment than you. He's RentingOutForDoubleTheCost.

robertoaribas says

you know you are a freaking idiot, right?

hear hear!!! If I purchase an investment that goes down in value, but still makes 2-3X the return of inflation every month.. I ain't gonna be crying myself to sleep over it.

Congrats Pocky!
Damn you spending that Railroad money.
Though 700K sounds like a lot, it sounds like you gotta a lot for you're money. Out of my league but it sounds like you lived up to my house buying motto. I want the most for the least money.

robertoaribas says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

When you see someone beating their chest trying to show how great a deal they got, it is a good chance they are bullshitting you.

so let's see: if someone says:

" i bought a home, and its a terrible deal" they are telling the truth.

BUT, if someone says:

" I bought a home, and its a great deal" they are of course lying...

you know you are a freaking idiot, right?

Idiot, because I think real estate in this country is one of the riskiest places to put your hard earned money and also throw in a 5-1 leveraging on top of it? You would be safer buying pork belly futures. You can have your opinion Roberto and not be an idiot, but apparently anyone that differs from you is one. Good luck to you Roberto, you will need it over there in Phoenix if my predictions come true.

gbenson says

robertoaribas says

you know you are a freaking idiot, right?

hear hear!!! If I purchase an investment that goes down in value, but still makes 2-3X the return of inflation every month.. I ain't gonna be crying myself to sleep over it.

Keep praying ever night that you can get more and more friends to join the greatest national ponzi scheme. Don't be surprised if it all collapses though.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

The truth is that investments in stocks has been shown to always out perform real estate. Always!

I've never invested in real estate because I don't want to be a landlord, but I'm not sure about that statement.

Are you looking solely at appreciation or are you also factoring in income?

On the long run housing goes up 4% per year vs stocks 8% per year. If don't think any further you will believe you can make more profit with stocks. But there are two key differences: you don't buy stocks with a small down payment, can't do a cash-out refinance on your stocks after they appreciate and your dividends are much lower than rent collected on housing. If you buy a house ($100k) with 20% down ($20k) and it goes up only 4% ($4k) then you get a return on your down payment of 20%. And that' not even including profits on rent.

Home Fart says

On the long run housing goes up 4% per year vs stocks 8% per year. If don't think any further you will believe you can make more profit with stocks. But there are two key differences: you don't buy stocks with a small down payment, can't do a cash-out refinance on your stocks after they appreciate and your dividends are much lower than rent collected on housing. If you buy a house ($100k) with 20% down ($20k) and it goes up only 4% ($4k) then you get a return on your down payment of 20%. And that' not even including profits on rent.

5-1 leverage is risk. You can play that risk with stocks with derivatives. However, investors can see the risk of raw -4% becoming -20% to you there. Because we have been brainwashed by the greed machine wrt real estate, everyone ignores this effect in housing. Good try.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

5-1 leverage is risk. You can play that risk with stocks with derivatives. However, investors can see the risk of raw -4% becoming -20% to you there. Because we have been brainwashed by the greed machine wrt real estate, everyone ignores this effect in housing. Good try.

You didn't answer my question. Are you including income in your calculation or just appreciation??

Very few people buy an investment home solely for the appreciation.

tatupu70 says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

5-1 leverage is risk. You can play that risk with stocks with derivatives. However, investors can see the risk of raw -4% becoming -20% to you there. Because we have been brainwashed by the greed machine wrt real estate, everyone ignores this effect in housing. Good try.

You didn't answer my question. Are you including income in your calculation or just appreciation??

Very few people buy an investment home solely for the appreciation.

Income can be dividends also. Absolutely including both. Housing is one of the worst forms of investments. Tracks to inflation. Other investment actually grow your capital. A house is a shelter.

I'll stop you with the income portion of rental property by saying permits for building apaprtments were almost nonexistent for the ten years from 2000. Builders did build millions of crap shacks for cheap, and sold them for premium prices.

As builders go back to building for "cash flow" smaller investors will be squeezed by the high prices they paid for crap.

Can I say crap on this site? I'm new here.

The rents you are looking at today are a part of that over all "feeling" of wealth Bernanke is talking about. Historically low interest rates, gives you a feeling on passive income, while ignoring the debt you are going to pay off.

OK, so what you end up owning that crap shack? Who is going to buy it? You just carried the property, and paid twice the price of it's value, but who will take it off your hands?

The type of thinking that is expressed here is the stuff slum lords are made of.

David Losh says

OK, so what you end up owning that crap shack? Who is going to buy it? You just carried the property, and paid twice the price of it's value, but who will take it off your hands?

Something tells me the Pockster can swing it. Being that his current finances hold up. Playing with in your means is the most important rule everyone should follow. NOT that nobody should ever buy a house that you or I would consider grossly inflated and out of our league. That is why I bought a house that the mortgage/ins/taxes would equal to the the average rent I was paying for ten years prior. Now had I the Pocksters money, I would have bought in Coral Gables and not thought twice about it.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Income can be dividends also. Absolutely including both. Housing is one of the worst forms of investments. Tracks to inflation. Other investment actually grow your capital. A house is a shelter.

That is not correct. Housing appreciation tracks inflation. Housing return including income absolutely does not.

Stocks returns include dividends. So, you need to include income to compare apples to apples.

tatupu70 says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Income can be dividends also. Absolutely including both. Housing is one of the worst forms of investments. Tracks to inflation. Other investment actually grow your capital. A house is a shelter.

That is not correct. Housing appreciation tracks inflation. Housing return including income absolutely does not.

Stocks returns include dividends. So, you need to include income to compare apples to apples.

Your correct. My bad. Appreciation tracks inflation, income is additional.

From the start of 1980 to the end of 2004, home sale prices increased 247%. A pretty sweet deal, it would seem. Over the same period, however, the S&P 500 shot up more than 1,000%.

You better be generating a lot of income to go from 247% to 1000%. A lot! Not 3K/mth on a 1million+ dollar home.

robertoaribas says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Housing is one of the worst forms of investments.

another idiotic blanket statement....

my properties are paying 10% income in rent, factoring in vacancy and maintenance, and over the past year, have appreciated wildly...

Another idiotic blanket statement saying past performance guarantees future performance.

robertoaribas says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Housing is one of the worst forms of investments.

another idiotic blanket statement....

my properties are paying 10% income in rent, factoring in vacancy and maintenance, and over the past year, have appreciated wildly...

yes RE is one of the BEST forms of investment, not the worst.
Didvidends have HUGE risks you can never ever know - such as 'oops we cooked the books for last 10 years, now we are folding the company up'. Or they eliminate dividend completely (very common). Basically all stocks are opaque - accounting rules are cheated until they get caught. WIth RE you are in charge of the cheating! lol

tatupu70 says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

The truth is that investments in stocks has been shown to always out perform real estate. Always!

I've never invested in real estate because I don't want to be a landlord, but I'm not sure about that statement.

Are you looking solely at appreciation or are you also factoring in income?

Food for thought

http://realestate.msn.com/blogs/listedblogpost.aspx?post=9c291709-2cc8-49a4-9ffe-d7f85942b0a8

http://observationsandnotes.blogspot.com/2011/10/housing-real-estate-stock-market.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304259304576375323652341888.html

robertoaribas says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Housing is one of the worst forms of investments.

another idiotic blanket statement....

my properties are paying 10% income in rent, factoring in vacancy and maintenance, and over the past year, have appreciated wildly...

I know I am just wasting my time with you Roberto. But anyway. Here is a situation that makes my statement hold up to your claim it is 'idiotic'. Again, anyone disagreeing with your incomplete view on investing is wrong. I feel sad for you sometimes. Just sometimes. ;)

"Here's another way of looking at the situation. If a disciplined investor who might have considered purchasing that median-price house in 1980 had opted instead to invest the 20% down payment of $19,910 and the normal homeownership expenses (above the cost of renting) over the years in the Dow Jones Industrial Index, the value of his portfolio in 2010 would have been $1,800,016. The stocks would have been worth more than the house by $1,503,196. If the analysis is based on 2007, the stock portfolio would have been worth $2,186,120, exceeding the house value by $1,625,850. "

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304259304576375323652341888.html

If you are financing 700,000 there is no way your payment on the loan is only $1600. $4000+ is more like it if you are paying it off.

Now interest only ARM, I don't know about that one, but you wouldn't be the first person to commit an ARM suicide. Plenty of people who lived through 2006 can tell you about that hook, line, and sinker.

What happened to all the wise people who used to post on patrick.net who didn't stretch their finances and only bought with either all cash or conservatively with no risk?

RentingForHalfTheCost says

"Here's another way of looking at the situation. If a disciplined investor who might have considered purchasing that median-price house in 1980 had opted instead to invest the 20% down payment of $19,910 and the normal homeownership expenses (above the cost of renting) over the years in the Dow Jones Industrial Index, the value of his portfolio in 2010 would have been $1,800,016. The stocks would have been worth more than the house by $1,503,196. If the analysis is based on 2007, the stock portfolio would have been worth $2,186,120, exceeding the house value by $1,625,850.

So what, Stocks aren't going to have large moves like that ever again in history.. Unless they are moving in tandem with housing. If our economy improves stocks and housing will improve together. If the economy falls off the track again.. Stocks will probably drop 50% in 3-6 months. That won't happen to housing in such a short period of time.

LOL. You can purchase whatever you want as long as you don't elect government leaders who will use taxpayer money to bail you out if you cut a bad deal.

No whining, ok?

Roberto is right. This board is filled with idiots who hate the system and dont care to work within it. Not the basis for a proper discussion on investment.

Maybe they should be on a communist message board.

Pocky your success is a detriment to everyone else success.
It's kind of like the popular thinking that Diabetes is contagious and if you sit on a plane next a fat person then you will contract diabetes and your health insurance will go up.

CaptainShuddup says

Pocky your success is a detriment to everyone else success.

It's kind of like the popular thinking that Diabetes is contagious and if you sit on a plane next a fat person then you will contract diabetes and your health insurance will go up.

I wouldn't call being in debt a success. Isn't patrick.net slogan "Debt is slavery"? We as a nation gone through this in 06 already.

I'm comparing him to Robert and I'm seeing a very different situation. Robert buys cheap rentals and rents them for profit taking virtually no risk. Pocky on the other hand just signed his life away, at least that is how I see it.

That isn't success, I feel that all the good advice from this board on financial prudence went out the window at some point, or at least some chose to ignore it.

I get that roberto is highly conservative, and has almost zero risk in his investments (so its crazy he gets bashed and harrassed right? so funny here). I am placing a bet on future appreciation with this one house. I am looking to buy conservative investment rentals, but in my area its a feeding frenzy for these and they cost 3 to 5 times what roberto is paying, but only generate maybe twice the rental income.

At any rate I can always go back to renting. So I dont see any real risk at all to what im doing. Will it kill me? no.

robertoaribas says

I am very close to finished writing on patrick.net. I am closing in on a housing worth (net) of over 2 million dollars

Sell now and you will thank yourself later. You have benefited from the Fed giving more and more gifts out. That will ultimately end no doubt, and then we can start paying the price for our greed.