patrick.net

mmmarvel says

And I entirely disagree. Morality is a standard, that is why using the Bible works (for many of us) because, it is a standard, there are absolute rights and absolute wrongs. Just because YOU have decided, based on whatever your moral standard is, that rape is wrong, then it is to you.

If morality was nothing more than arbitrary opinion, it would be worthless and there would be no reason to discuss it.

Some moral systems work far better than others. Understanding why matters.

mmmarvel says

Golly Dan, you're going to edumacate us all on how morality works, gee, thanks.

Only if you are wise enough to listen.

Is there anything wrong with sharing knowledge? Why does the idea of learning something from another human being offend you so?

mmmarvel says

In your world, using your particular moral standard, gay sex is okay. In my world, using the Bible to base my moral standards off of, gay sex is not okay. The question really isn't that hard, nor is the answer. It appears to me that you wanted some people to bash the issue using Bible verses so you could attack them.

1. Whether or not you consider gay sex to be immoral is not the question. The question is why do you consider gay sex to be immoral. Even if morality were just an arbitrary opinion, opinions have reasons. I like ice cream because it tastes sweet. I don't like the taste of shit because evolution implanted a repulsion response in my species in order to keep us from getting sick by eating shit.

2. The question was not meant to be hard. Yet, it still remains unanswered.

3. My intention in asking this question was to either find a legitimate reason why homosexuality is immoral or to demonstrate that there isn't one. The fact that Bible thumpers are the biggest and dumbest idiots isn't my fault.

Nevertheless, even the religious should be able to give a non-religious reason why they think gay sex is immoral. If there only reason is because their Bible says so, then I am right to point out the utter hypocrisy and contradiction as the Bible says that slavery is good and many, many other things that no Bible-thumper today would advocate as good morality.

curious2 says

I believe you. The disliking of Dan's posts started when mmmarvel arrived, so I made that connection and never suspected you.

Having read mmmarvel's recent posts, I agree. He does sound like a troll douche-bag.

Nevertheless, he's just making his side look like assholes.

At least FortWayne made some rational attempts to justify considering gay sex to be immoral. And even though his attempts ended up more about cultural norms and practical issues, at least it was a sincere attempt to answer the question.

curious2 says

Bap33 says

Dan is a very smart guy and knows what I am doing and what my next move is, like chess.

Dan is a very smart guy and you could learn a lot from him. Instead you seem to be playing some kind of game in your mind that you use as a rationalization to avoid answering the original question.

My strategy on this thread, and all others, is pretty straight-forward and simple. Transparency, transparency, transparency. Just keep probing by asking the question why until you get to the underlying kernel of truth, the reason for a political or, in this case, moral stance.

If just keep asking why, eventually you find out what's really important to people.

So far, it seems that what's important to anti-gay persons is simply conformity to their arbitrary culture. I think that gay sex is immoral because that was what I was raised to believe. And that is not a good justification for calling something immoral.

New Renter says

Peter P says

Rush is highly entertaining.

So was Hitler

I think you're confusing Charlie Chaplin and Hitler. Chaplin was the one with the hat.

New Renter says

Perhaps you are trying to compare the time cheated from those in line behind the cutter to the "ick" suffered by people offended by the idea of gay sex? Is this what you are trying to do?

That's what I thought Bap was trying to do, but he could have just "sprung the trap" already as we've said that line cutting is immoral like 50 times.

StoutFiles says

Dan8267 says

For example, if god wanted you to rape babies, would raping babies be good? Hell no.

Well, yes, it would, if it actually came from God. There is no such thing as a true right or wrong, good or evil. We do things based on what society says or what we believe God wants, defining the terms. If society wanted us to rape babies and God gave us a big thumbs up and promised Heaven for it, then surely it would be a "good" act.

And that is yet another problem with religion.

The idea that good and evil are simply what some "god" wants is perhaps the greatest thing what makes religion dangerous. Since the "god" doesn't actually exist, his desires are always expressed by some authority figure, and it just so happens to be that the fictitious god wants exactly what the authority figure wants.

For George W. Bush, god wanted America to invade Iraq killing about 1 million men, women, and children. For Hitler, god wanted the Jews burned alive in ovens.

Once a person realizes that all these incarnations of "god" are simply lies and that those telling the lies have ulterior and evil motives, that person can finally see that good and evil has nothing to do with a "god" or religion.

Also, I've always found it utterly ridiculous to not only assume that there is a god, but then assume that there is only one. Of course, such an assumption is necessary for tyrants because if there were more than one god, they could disagree. And if the gods disagreed, then the tyrant couldn't claim unquestioning authority.

It's no surprise that monotheism took off during the rise of nation-states and empires. Earlier religions were all polytheistic.

swebb says

Therefore gay sex is immoral.

QED

Actually, what you are saying is that people hijack the subject of morality to demonize things that aren't immoral but that the demonizers don't like.

I agree with this as there is ample evidence to support this. And essentially, that seems to be the only reason gay sex is called immoral by some people. However, demonizing a practice doesn't make it immoral. Rock-n-roll was demonized not so long ago. So was interracial marriage.

Bap33 says

who says cheating is immoral? what is the reason?

Whether or not cheating is immoral depends on the situation. If a person is placed in an unjust situation, cheating may be a moral imperative.

For example, hijackers take an airplane and promise the pilot no one will die if they land in Iraq. The pilot actually lands in Israel and the Israelis pretend to be Iraqis until they can take out the hijackers. The pilot cheated on the deal, but it was the moral thing to do.

I have an infinite number of other examples. For brevity, I won't list them here. Sufficient to say, there are reasons underlying the act which determine whether or not cheating is immoral.

mell says

People should not take "books" as their moral guide.

Certainly not religious books.

However, a good book on any subject explains the subject clearly. One could write a good book on morality, why it exists, and how it works. Actually, such books may already be written. If so, there content will be mathematical, not supernatural.

mell says

Consentual sex is never immoral, be it gay or straight.

I wouldn't go that far. If I had consensual sex with a married woman, I would consider that immoral because of the harm the act does to the woman's husband, children, and marriage. Similarly, infidelity in gay marriages would be immoral.

Buster says

mmmarvel says

we will be held accountable for our actions.

Perhaps, but I prefer to hold people accountable for their actions in the here and now.

Relying on some god to set things straight after death is completely wrong. If a god really did balance the scales after death, then there would be no purpose in stopping evil such as murder, rape, genocide, etc. There would be no point in striving for social justice. God takes care of everything. This is exactly the mindset of the Dark Ages, and that's why social justice stood still during that period.

It is this life that matters. Making this world a better place is what counts.

New Renter says

The OP simply asked those who feel homosexual sex is immoral to explain their position in a manner that the OP can understand. That manner asks for logic and enlightened reasoning instead of than tradition and superstition. That is not intolerance rather it is trying to gain a better understanding of an alternate viewpoint.

All true. But there is a reason for the post.

Demonizing homosexuality has caused enormous harm to many people. Mathew Shepard was brutally murdered because of it. His family suffered greatly. Many people have been arrested in 20th century U.S. and Britain for being homosexual. Alan Turing, the greatest mind that ever lived, was driven to suicide after he was arrested for being gay. Multitudes of same-sex couples are denied equality under law due to this discrimination.

So, I am quite justified in demanding an explanation for why gay sex is immoral, because if it isn't, then calling it immoral certainly is.

New Renter says

mmarvel says

Buster says

The irony is not lost on any casual observer and unfortunately the examples of this are hoisted upon us everyday. Hypocrisy of these folks seems to be infinite.

Hypocrisy certainly isn't limited to those who claim to live life with a religious bent to it. I love the liberals who want everyone to be open minded and tolerant ... right up until they meet with someone who espouses a different point of view.

You took my comment out of context. The thread is referring to gay sex. My comment was meant to imply that those against it are often times hypocrites. I do agree however that some on the left can be just as crazy.

Here is an example that just passed my facebook moments ago. I don't go looking for these, they simply happen every SINGLE DAY.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/2790496-95/biron-charges-lawyer-manchester

Anti-Gay Christian Lawyer Arrested For Possession Of Child Pornography

A member of the anti-gay Alliance Defense Fund, which has filed numerous lawsuits in opposition to LGBT rights nationwide, has been arrested on multiple felony charges related to child pornography.
A Manchester lawyer took a teenage girl to Canada, had her engage in sexual activity and convinced her to let it be filmed, according to federal indictments. FBI agents swiftly arrested Lisa Biron yesterday morning as she awaited a hearing on child pornography charges at Manchester’s district court. About 9 a.m. FBI agents entered the courtroom, told Biron to leave her belongings and took her into an adjoining conference room where she remained for several minutes before coming out in handcuffs. Outside, Biron ducked her head below the backseat window of a white vehicle as it was driven away from the courthouse. A few hours later in U.S. District Court in Concord, Biron, who is associated with a national coalition of Christian lawyers, was formally told of the federal charges against her: transportation with intent to engage in criminal sexual activity, possession of child pornography and five counts of sexual exploitation of children. Judge Landya McCafferty decided to detain Biron yesterday, largely, she said, because she is believed to have broken most of the bail conditions imposed on the district-level pornography charges.

Dan8267 says

l. Alan Turing, the greatest mind that ever lived, was driven to suicide after he was arrested for being gay.

That would be an interesting topic to debate. Was Alan Turing the greatest mind to ever live?

I'm all up his ass, too, but the greatest mind to ever live? Maybe, but how could you be sure?

Dan8267 says

New Renter says

Peter P says

Rush is highly entertaining.

So was Hitler

I think you're confusing Charlie Chaplin and Hitler. Chaplin was the one with the hat.

Plenty of people in the mid 1930s found the speeches given by Hitler entertaining. He wasn't humorous at least that I can tell but he did have a style that kept his audiences enthralled. He could never have come to power otherwise.

Personally I can't see how anyone can listen to Limbaugh. I've tried but I can't go more than a few minutes before I have to turn off the radio.

swebb says

Maybe, but how could you be sure?

I suppose Friedrich Gauss could give Turing a run for his money, but I'm still more of a Turing fan.

Dan8267 says

mmmarvel says

Golly Dan, you're going to edumacate us all on how morality works, gee, thanks.

Only if you are wise enough to listen.

Is there anything wrong with sharing knowledge? Why does the idea of learning something from another human being offend you so?

No, but it does come across as you're setting yourself up to be the guru on the mountain top. I've read many of your comments/observations that I completely disagree with. Not sure that I'll learn, but sometimes your rants are mildly entertaining. Do you understand how it can come across?

Dan8267 says

Relying on some god to set things straight after death is completely wrong. If a god really did balance the scales after death, then there would be no purpose in stopping evil such as murder, rape, genocide, etc. There would be no point in striving for social justice.

Not sure I'm 'relying' on God to set things straight, I believe it will happen regardless of if you're 'relaying' on it or not. I also disagree that what happens in the afterlife to those who commit horrible acts (rape, murder, etc) dismisses the reason/need to correct/punish the offender in this life, render to caeser and all that.

mmmarvel says

. Do you understand how it can come across?

How I come across depends entirely on the maturity of the other person. Juveniles see knowledge sharing as arrogant. Adults see these discussions as ways of letting good ideas bubble through society. Sure, most of the ideas in such conversations may be "bad", but if even a small percentage are worth spreading and they spread like wildfire, then society is better off.

Perhaps some day you will understand this. It's not about the person doing the writing. It's about the ideas being written down and discussed.

I wouldn't limit it the problem to anal sex. Doggy style sex is a lack of respect for your human conditions and going back being animals. Missionary style should be the only moral way of having intercourse.

ja says

Missionary

Still too similar to animals, by that logic the only moral way is test tubes in an immaculate lab. Relying upon the Bible and the doctrine of the Church, everyone must emulate the example of Mary as closely as possible: immaculate conception is the only moral way. Praise be to the inventor of the test tube, for bringing us all closer to The Light and The Truth and The Way. And the Brave New World.

curious2 says

ja says

Missionary

Still too similar to animals, by that logic the only moral way is test tubes in an immaculate lab. Relying upon the Bible and the doctrine of the Church, everyone must emulate the example of Mary as closely as possible: immaculate conception is the only moral way. Praise be to the inventor of the test tube, for bringing us all closer to The Light and The Truth and The Way.

I was going to suggest through a hole in a sheet, but your reasoning is undeniable.

leo707 says

curious2 says

ja says

Missionary

Still too similar to animals, by that logic the only moral way is test tubes in an immaculate lab. Relying upon the Bible and the doctrine of the Church, everyone must emulate the example of Mary as closely as possible: immaculate conception is the only moral way. Praise be to the inventor of the test tube, for bringing us all closer to The Light and The Truth and The Way.

I was going to suggest through a hole in a sheet, but your reasoning is undeniable.

Still too close to the animals. we need to get away from biology altogether:

Robot bodies with cybernetic brains for all, its the only moral choice!

Dan,
after seeing your position (no pun), and those of others, it seems to me you need to start a new thread asking, "why the hell is gay sex so rare?"

Bap33 says

"why the hell is gay sex so rare?"

Easy question. It was very common less than a century ago, but then got bundled together with an identity. Previously, people who keep thinking about it (not to mention any names Bap) would simply have done it, but now they are afraid of being called gay, so instead of actually doing it they just keep thinking about it.

BTW, the hunky Captain America avatar reminds me of a certain WWE wrestler:

Please take care. Pills marketed as "anti-depressants" are no substitute for healthy living. Neither is religion - which wthrfrk/freak80 retreats into because he calls legal recognition for gay marriage equivalent to slitting his own throat. Although less common than previously, gay sex is pretty easy to find if you look around, and much healthier than pills and religious paranoia.

Bap33 says

Dan,

after seeing your position (no pun), and those of others, it seems to me you need to start a new thread asking, "why the hell is gay sex so rare?"

What is rare to you?

10% of men are "predominately" homosexual. 37% of men have had at least one same-sex orgasm.

curious2 says

immaculate conception is the only moral way.

Indeed. One should also only get married if they can't stay Celibate, according to Paul. This one gets glossed over big time.

Bap33 says

Dan,

after seeing your position (no pun), and those of others, it seems to me you need to start a new thread asking, "why the hell is gay sex so rare?"

6% is rare? Hell, if Romney got the gay vote, he'd be president by now. Hardly an insignificant minority.

leo707 says

37% of men have had at least one same-sex orgasm.

Maybe in San Francisco, but I think the percentages are a bit lower in most of the country. The statistic I read was that 6% of the adult U.S. population was gay or bisexual. Seems a bit more reasonable than 37% of men. Now, given what I've seen on Facebook, it could be argued that at least 80% of women are bisexual or at least pretending...

Why the hell of an atheist would care about what is moral or immoral.

What is immoral for you? Maximum it's whatever the society, not even the majority but those powerful enough to enforce their agenda, declare immoral.

Why would you care about what they think or say they think?

Dan8267 says

if Romney got the gay vote, he'd be president by now.

True:

Gay Vote Seen As Crucial In Obama's Victory

Exit polls found 5% of voters identified themselves as gay, including more than 6% of voters under 30, so that isn't exactly rare. For comparison, Asian Americans are fewer than 5%, Jewish Americans fewer than 3%.

But, the Kinsey surveys in the 1950s found more than 1/3 of men had done what would now be called "gay sex" at least once. They didn't call it that, and didn't usually talk about it. The paradox of recent decades has been, the love that dared not speak its name has become the thing that everybody talks about but fewer people are actually doing.

Dan8267 says

The statistic I read was that 6% of the adult U.S. population was gay or bisexual.

curious2 says

Exit polls found 5% of voters identified themselves as gay, including more than 6% of voters under 30, so that isn't exactly rare.

Yeah, about 5% is exclusively gay, or would identify as gay. Kinsey estimated that about 46% of men "engaged in both heterosexual and homosexual activities, or 'reacted to' persons of both sexes, in the course of their adult lives."

I believe that the 37% number is just the ones who actually reached orgasm with another man. The other 9% --before collapsing in a pile of shame--just furiously masturbate as they inform the internet how disgusting and deviant homosexuals are, but never "consummate" their desires.

One of the shocking things about the Kinsey report was how common it was for a man to have participated in man-on-man action at some point in his life.

For more reading:
http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/research/ak-data.html#homosexuality

michaelsch says

Why the hell of an atheist would care about what is moral or immoral.

Atheists obviously care more about morality than Christians. When we do good or avoid doing evil, it's not because we think some cosmic traffic cop is watching us waiting to punish or reward us.

If the only reason you behave in a moral manner is to avoid being punished or in order to be rewarded, you're not really being moral but just careful. A truly moral person does good and not evil simply because it is the right thing to do.

However, your statement does reveal yet another problem with religion. Religion prevents the honest discussion, understanding, and advancement of morality my hijacking the subject and turning it into blindly obeying the priest class.

michaelsch says

Why would you care about what they think or say they think?

Because Mathew Shepard died.

leo707 says

Yeah, about 5% is exclusively gay, or would identify as gay. Kinsey estimated that about 46% of men "engaged in both heterosexual and homosexual activities, or 'reacted to' persons of both sexes, in the course of their adult lives."

What a man does in college while pledging a fraternity is no indication of his sexual orientation, especially if I, er, he was drunk at the time.

In the words of Eric Massa,

They're saying I groped a male staffer. Yeah, I did. Not only did I grope him, I tickled him until he couldn't breathe and then four guys jumped on top of me - it's my 50th birthday - it was kill the old guy. You can take anything out of context.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/92V8yWLf1t0

And don't get me started on snorkeling. That's just what we straight guys do for fun when we're with the guys.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/14/snl-takes-on-eric-massa-v_n_498267.html

Also great... The gay vs. straight version of ads. The disclaimer "No Homo" in rap.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/zm5MgIAVhyk

http://www.youtube.com/embed/rCCRw2_3LbM

Another true classic ;)

Dan8267 says

michaelsch says

Why the hell of an atheist would care about what is moral or immoral.

Atheists obviously care more about morality than Christians. When we do good or avoid doing evil, it's not because we think some cosmic traffic cop is watching us waiting to punish or reward us.

Just a lot of totally empty words. Good and evil are just social concepts embedded in your mind by your social circumstances. Why would a high IQ set of electromagnetic waves care about this BS? May be stop kicking that beloved "Christian" straw man of yours and start being an atheist.