patrick.net

leo707 says

OK, yes children do imitate, but the don't imitate everything they see, and when they do they don't imitate it exactly as it happened. Seeing gay is not going to give a child the gay. No more than seeing women in dresses is going to turn a little boy into a cross dresser. Lots of little boys experiment with wearing dresses, but very few become cross-dressers; it takes much more than seeing someone in a dress to make that happen.

I have to disagree there Leo. You don't really know that for sure either, you are just guessing.

When I see children imitate what they see, I'm not simply going to rely on any politically convenient biased short term research that says it doesn't matter.

robertoaribas says

total bs, my dogs know right from wrong, in how they treat each other,and I've yet to see a dog read a religious book.

If everyone knew right from wrong we wouldn't need laws, prisons, cops and courts. Morality is what we as society agree on. Slavery was completely moral at some point.

Bap33 says

p.s. ... The Romans did not start out as a bunch of boy bangers in public baths ... they only got that way when life got easy and their focus was on "self". America is Rome 2.0

You sure about that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty

Looks to me that boy banging was commonplace throughout the ancient world whether or not the focus of the society was on "self"

As for America being Rome 2.0 - hows that modern easy going attitude towards boy banging working out for you?

robertoaribas says

well, an intelligent person would look for some psychology papers that study prevalance of gay children among children raised by gays or straight parents...

hint: you'll find that children raised by gay parents are no more likely to be gay than children raised by straight parents.

I ain't taking chances. All these biased little researches are bogus. That's why Monsanto for so many years got away with dumping pollution, because they paid for research. Same here, it's all biased, and I got to look out for myself.

New Renter says

Looks to me that boy banging was commonplace throughout the ancient world whether or not the focus of the society was on "self"

As for America being Rome 2.0 - hows that modern easy going attitude towards boy banging working out for you?

It is always amusing to me when someone points to homosexuality and pederasty as the "cause" of the fall of the Roman Empire.

While homosexual behavior was pretty much a constant in the ancient world, belief in Christ did not start to become prevalent until the "end" of the Roman Empire...

...Hmmmmmm...

...hmmmm...

New Renter says

You sure about that?

Yeah, wasn't going to post, but I don't see any evidence this 'boy banging' was just at the tail end, pardon the pun.

"Same-sex attitudes and behaviors in ancient Rome often differ markedly from those of the contemporary West. Latin lacks words that would precisely translate "homosexual" and "heterosexual." The primary dichotomy of ancient Roman sexuality was active/dominant/masculine and passive/submissive/"feminized". Roman society was patriarchal, and the freeborn male citizen possessed political liberty (libertas) and the right to rule both himself and those of his household (familia).

"Virtue" (virtus) was seen as an active quality through which a man (vir) defined himself. The conquest mentality and "cult of virility" shaped same-sex relations. Roman men were free to enjoy sex with other males without a perceived loss of masculinity or social status, as long as they took the dominant or penetrative role. Acceptable male partners were slaves, prostitutes, and entertainers, whose lifestyle placed them in the nebulous social realm of infamia, excluded from the normal protections accorded a citizen even if they were technically free. Although Roman men in general seem to have preferred youths between the ages of 12 and 20 as sexual partners, freeborn male minors were strictly off-limits, and professional prostitutes and entertainers might be considerably older."

FortWayne says

You don't really know that for sure either, you are just guessing.

Well, yes but I am guess based on some logical assumptions, and as Robert points out some psychology papers that make sense to me.

In your earlier comments in this thread you seemed to indicate that you thought homosexuality was genetic. If this is your belief then no amount of viewing gays is going to turn a kid gay. Yes, it may make them think that being gay is OK, but it is not going to change their programmed sexual desires.

robertoaribas says

total bs, my dogs know right from wrong, in how they treat each other,and I've yet to see a dog read a religious book.

no, no, my good man, dogs are led by INSTINCT, and PACK MENTALITY. Dog's right and wrong are dictated by the leader of the pack, and at no time is the leader's choice based on morality, and should the leader's choice match a given morality it is by accident.. In today's America, the liberal voter mentality is very close to the pack mentality.

leo707 says

New Renter says

Looks to me that boy banging was commonplace throughout the ancient world whether or not the focus of the society was on "self"

As for America being Rome 2.0 - hows that modern easy going attitude towards boy banging working out for you?

It is always amusing to me when someone points to homosexuality and pederasty as the "cause" of the fall of the Roman Empire.

While homosexual behavior was pretty much a constant in the ancient world, belief in Christ did not start to become prevalent until the "end" of the Roman Empire...

...Hmmmmmm...

...hmmmm...

I cant figure out if you read what I wrote and just ignore it, or don't understand it, or what.
1) I said Roman's did not start out as boy raping sodomite maniacs. They didn't. THey were busy hunting, gathering, and conquering. They didn't start out with a parliment either.
2) I never mentioned that immoral behavior was why the empire failed, but it was. Or, at the very least it was an indicator.
3) The message of Christ was very much a key to the end of the Roman empire ... the message that said each person could access God, and have God in them, and that each person was free (even while bound), and that no man was worthy of worship ... yep, things that that, and others, made the empire erode. The is why the Roman-Catholic empire was created by the crown .... an effort to keep control. I think.
4) male/male sodomy is used in prison. Anyone care to elaborate? Would anyone from the pro-sodomite side vote in favor of having women and men prison's mixed? THis would remove alot of the reasons for sodmoy in prisons. So, pro-male/male coupling people on here, how do you feel about mixed prisons?

Dogs Understand Fairness, Get Jealous

Bap33 says

Would anyone from the pro-sodomite side

And here, Bap, is your problem. You are committed to being on an 'anti-sodomite' side and playing a game. You can't allow yourself to learn from Dan, because that in your mind would allow him to score a point against your side. You exemplify the reason why the Republicans lost, and will probably lose again. You insist on treating people unfairly, and rationalize that by saying they're on the other side, when in fact they aren't different from you at all - except they base their opinions on evidence and reason rather than sticking to the wrong side.

Bap33 says

1) I said Roman's did not start out as boy raping sodomite maniacs. They didn't. THey were busy hunting, gathering, and conquering.

?why do you think that?

Homosexuality and a hunter/gatherer culture is not mutually exclusive. Do a little reading on the topic there are many examples of "primitive" cultures where Homosexuality is accepted--just as it was in the beginnings of the Roman Empire.

On the other-hand a spreading belief in Christ is highly correlated with the fall of the Empire.

Bap33 says

no man was worthy of worship ... yep, things that that, and others, made the empire erode.

? Every christian country that followed had divinely installed leadership that the populous would bow down to.

So are you saying the Pope is the cause of the fall of Rome?

Bap33 says

4) male/male sodomy is used in prison. Anyone care to elaborate?

Sorry, Bap but I am not going to titillate you with details.

Bap33 says

Would anyone from the pro-sodomite side vote in favor of having women and men prison's mixed?

Why?

Bap33 says

THis would remove alot of the reasons for sodmoy in prisons.

It would not, are you advocating replacing male rape victims with female ones so that your religious sensibilities are not offended by man-on-man prison rape?

Sorry, but men will still be raped. Look into man-on-man rape in the military. It happens there when there are also plenty of women to rape.

Bap33 says

I said Roman's did not start out as boy raping sodomite maniacs. They didn't. THey were busy hunting, gathering, and conquering.

And you know this how?

Bap33 says

I never mentioned that immoral behavior was why the empire failed, but it was. Or, at the very least it was an indicator.

Speaking of fail...

leo707 says

Well, yes but I am guess based on some logical assumptions, and as Robert points out some psychology papers that make sense to me.

In your earlier comments in this thread you seemed to indicate that you thought homosexuality was genetic. If this is your belief then no amount of viewing gays is going to turn a kid gay. Yes, it may make them think that being gay is OK, but it is not going to change their programmed sexual desires.

But what if it's also learned and many of us are wrong? Consequences of being wrong here are a heavy burden and shame to bear.

leo707 says

? Every christian country that followed had divinely installed leadership that the populous would bow down to.
So are you saying the Pope is the cause of the fall of Rome?

leo, the Roman Catholic church was not Christian in 95% of it's actions, in my opinion.

Christianity and God's message, not the pope, helped end the Roman empire because of how it changed man's idea of self and freedom, in my opinion.

New Renter says

Bap33 says

I never mentioned that immoral behavior was why the empire failed, but it was. Or, at the very least it was an indicator.

Speaking of fail...

excellant retort.
Do understand that the actions of the emperors were immoral, even when they were not sodomy with other males.

Also, the ancient text that said male/male, human/animal sex was not ok, is much older than any Roman anything.

New Renter says

Bap33 says

I said Roman's did not start out as boy raping sodomite maniacs. They didn't. THey were busy hunting, gathering, and conquering.

And you know this how?

very basic history of man. You are suggesting I am wrong? If so, based on what?

leo707 says

THis would remove alot of the reasons for sodmoy in prisons.
It would not, are you advocating replacing male rape victims with female ones so that your religious sensibilities are not offended by man-on-man prison rape?

why do you mention rape? surely you do not profess that all male/male sodomy in prison is by force. THat would be illogical. If you are able to suggest that 35% of all men enjoy some type of deviant same sex, then how can you come out with all prison sodomy being rape? Is all sodomy rape the first few times? You seem to have an intimate understanding of male/male sodomy tendancy details that I do not, so please elaborate. Why did you make the assumption of rape?

michaelsch says

Dan8267 says

michaelsch says

Why the hell of an atheist would care about what is moral or immoral.

Atheists obviously care more about morality than Christians. When we do good or avoid doing evil, it's not because we think some cosmic traffic cop is watching us waiting to punish or reward us.

Just a lot of totally empty words. Good and evil are just social concepts embedded in your mind by your social circumstances. Why would a high IQ set of electromagnetic waves care about this BS? May be stop kicking that beloved "Christian" straw man of yours and start being an atheist.

Your bigotry is apparent if you think that atheists must act evil. History has shown that religion is what brings out the true evil in man.

Furthermore, your world view is completely fucked up if you think there is nothing inherently wrong about raping a six-year-old girl beyond violating "social concepts".

I have not presented any Straw Man arguments in this thread or any other. And I challenge you or anyone else to show that any of my arguments are Straw Man. Finally, I call hypocrisy on you for using Straw Men while accusing others of doing so.

Bap33 says

A long while ago you were very upset by me and others that called atheism a religion......

Just because I correct you on something, doesn't mean I'm upset.

And don't make me post that Bill Maher video again showing that atheism is clearly not a religion. Cause you know I'll do it. I know it embarrasses your side because you cannot respond to anything in it.

Bap33 says

And now, here we are debating the "reason" for an (activity/person/fill-in-blank) to be concidered moral, or immoral, by human kind .... and we are doing it in the "religion" area of the site.....

Yes, because it is only the religious who make the claim that gay sex is immoral. Naturally this forum is the place to question that assertion.

Bap33 says

very basic history of man. You are suggesting I am wrong? If so, based on what?

I am suggesting that your knowledge of the sex life of the early Latins is flawed.

Bap33 says

New Renter says

Bap33 says

I never mentioned that immoral behavior was why the empire failed, but it was. Or, at the very least it was an indicator.

Speaking of fail...

excellant retort.
Do understand that the actions of the emperors were immoral, even when they were not sodomy with other males.

Also, the ancient text that said male/male, human/animal sex was not ok, is much older than any Roman anything.

Thank you

To which ancient text do you refer? The Torah?

Because this is how Realtors are born.

Bap33 says

And now you make a case that suggests that your group of fanatics has a better guide to good life than the other group of fanatics ..... (?)

What fanatics? What group?

Bap33 says

And when pressed about it you suggest that your side is right because each and every position is based on the thought power of human kind, and nothing at all is based on feeling, faith, or belief.

Huh? What the fuck is "thought power"? Do you mean math, logic, reasoning, and facts?

Bap33 says

So you put all of your faith in the thought power of self. You. If your thought power is wrong, and then your way of doing things is forced upon human kind, then all human kind suffers from your flawed reasoning. Right.

First off, faith is the belief without proof. I have proof of the power of reasoning. Diseases cured, lifespan doubled, man walking on the moon, just to name a few things.

Second, I don't have to have faith in my "thought power" whatever the fuck that is, in order to know how to prove that the square root of two is irrational. I can write down the proof, check it, show it to others and see if they can find a mistake with it, run it through a proof-validation algorithm, etc. So I'm willing to bet my life that the square root of two is irrational. I can be that confident of that fact. Does anyone want to take the opposite side of that bet?

Bap33 says

That, sir, is a religion. Atheism is a religion of self, and lacks the moral anchor of God's word because of the focus on self.

1. The moral anchor of god? Is that the same god that said a man should sell his daughter into sex slavery and that if the daughter doesn't perform to the satisfaction of her new owner that owner can retain her for additional years? Is that the same god who said that slavery is good in both testaments? Is that the same god who said to bash babies against rocks and to slash open pregnant women with swords?

Your god is evil.

2. Christianity, not atheism, is ego-centric. According to your religion, the entire fucking universe was created for the sole purpose of man. According to science and reasoning, our existence is nothing more than an arbitrary and a very lucky sequence of events, and it could have easily been some other species that ruled the Earth. Which of these is the arrogant, self-center philosophy?

3. OK, you're making me post the video again. Don't say I didn't warn you. Of course, there is no way you can respond to this video.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/A41WZBcmnfc

Dan8267 says

Yes, because it is only the religious who make the claim that gay sex is immoral.

only athiests claim that religion is immoral

Of the two camps, it appears that the anti-male/male coupling crowd is the one focused on the need of society to have a moralistic base. I don't see the pro-male/male coupling crowd too worried about a moralistic base in society.... until they rely upon that moral base for safety and freedom from mistreatment.

Dan8267 says

According to your religion, the entire fucking universe was created for the sole purpose of man.

not correct

FortWayne says

But what if it's also learned and many of us are wrong?

Well, there is no evidence to indicate that it is learned. Perhaps, at best when one is raised accepting homosexuality they are less likely to suppress there natural sexual desires. But, what if we are wrong and there is a learned element to homosexuality...

FortWayne says

Consequences of being wrong here are a heavy burden and shame to bear.

The only burden and/or shame that result are a social construct. If someone were to wave a magic wand and make the US totally accepting towards homosexuals there would be no shame or burden. However, there would be fewer teen suicides (especially in Utah), fewer homeless teens (especially in Utah), fewer parents burdened with shame because they made a gay kid (especially in Utah), fewer people killed and beaten for being gay.

That is a risk I would be willing to take.

Oh, yes, and there would be fewer flamboyant gay pride parades.

Unfortunately there is no magic wand and acceptance of any minority is a long slow process.

Bap33 says

In today's America, the liberal voter mentality is very close to the pack mentality.

Wow, the hypocrisy. Democrats are arguing with each other all the time and can't get anything done. Meanwhile, Republicans all mindlessly chant the same sound bites. And the liberals are the ones with pack mentality?

Bap33 says

Christianity and God's message, not the pope, helped end the Roman empire because of how it changed man's idea of self and freedom, in my opinion.

So we agree then that belief in Christ was a cause in the fall of the Roman Empire.

Remembering that the last emperors of Rome were Christians, but not true Christians? Right?

Only, those that receive the Bap seal of approval are "true" Christians.

Bap33 says

only athiests claim that religion is immoral

Yes, and I can justify that belief. Let's talk about your religion in particular and how it relates to this thread.

Your "unerring and unquestionable" bible says

When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die.

That's right. Your religion says we must murder men who have gay sex. Advocating such murder is evil and has evil consequences such as the murder of Mathew Shepard and countless other men.

This boy did not deserve to die. He was killed by bigotry cause by your religion and advocated by your bible. That's plenty of justification that your religion is immoral.

I can further generalize this statement to include all religions because all religion are based on lies. And when you base control of people and philosophies on lies, you get bad philosophies that advocate evil acts.

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says

According to your religion, the entire fucking universe was created for the sole purpose of man.

not correct

Dan,

Bap, does have his own very customized dogma. One cannot assume it adheres to "standard" Christian dogmas.

One of my favorite Bap theories is that the earth was once encased, somewhere at or above the thermosphere, in an ice shell. This shell was responsible for a few things that I forget. I think one was the melting of the shell caused Noah's flood.

leo707 says

Bap, does have his own very customized dogma. One cannot assume it adheres to "standard" Christian dogmas.

Oh, he's one of those Christians that believes the Native Americans were a lost tribe of Judah and that Lord Xenu dropped atomic bombs from 747s to trap alien souls on Earth. Okay, that's much more reasonable.

Bap33 says

why do you mention rape? surely you do not profess that all male/male sodomy in prison is by force. THat would be illogical.

No, it is not all rape, but a lot of it is.

Bap33 says

Is all sodomy rape the first few times?

Not "all", but yes, this is often the case in prison. This is also how pimps will "break" women and turn them into prostitutes.

Bap33 says

You seem to have an intimate understanding of male/male sodomy tendancy details that I do not, so please elaborate.

Once again Bap I have no interest in providing you with "material." You are going to have to come up with your own prison scenarios for your reel.

Bap33 says

Why did you make the assumption of rape?

It is not that I am assuming rape, but I mentioned rape because rape is what bothers me. Also, because it is very common in place where you put a bunch of anti-social aggressive men--like in prison. Consensual sex does not bother me. If adult consenting men--in prison or not--want to have sex I could really care less. If they can build strong healthy relationships, then I am happy for them.

jvolstad says

Because this is how Realtors are born.

LOLOLOLOL!

leo707 says

Bap33 says

Is all sodomy rape the first few times?

Not "all", but yes, this is often the case in prison. This is also how pimps will "break" women and turn them into prostitutes.

Bap33 is very fixated on sodomy rape for an alleged heterosexual.

Dan8267 says

leo707 says

Bap33 says

Is all sodomy rape the first few times?

Not "all", but yes, this is often the case in prison. This is also how pimps will "break" women and turn them into prostitutes.

Bap33 is very fixated on sodomy rape for an alleged heterosexual.

Yes, "alleged"...

leo707 says

One of my favorite Bap theories is that the earth was once encased, somewhere at or above the thermosphere, in an ice shell. This shell was responsible for a few things that I forget. I think one was the melting of the shell caused Noah's flood.

Sounds like snowball earth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth

I doubt the ice sheet was more than a few miles thick though

leo707 says

Dan8267 says

leo707 says

Bap33 says

Is all sodomy rape the first few times?

Not "all", but yes, this is often the case in prison. This is also how pimps will "break" women and turn them into prostitutes.

Bap33 is very fixated on sodomy rape for an alleged heterosexual.

Yes, "alleged"...

Yes, one does wonder about someone with such strong negative beliefs about sodomy yet chooses such a blatantly homoerotic avatar.

New Renter says

Yes, one does wonder about someone with such strong negative beliefs about sodomy yet chooses such a blatantly homoerotic avatar.

I said that in the original post. Bap reminds me of Eric Massa.

New Renter says

leo707 says

One of my favorite Bap theories is that the earth was once encased, somewhere at or above the thermosphere, in an ice shell. This shell was responsible for a few things that I forget. I think one was the melting of the shell caused Noah's flood.

Sounds like snowball earth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth

I doubt the ice sheet was more than a few miles thick though

that is correct leo. The asteroid that hit the Ucatan and took out the dinos also knocked a hole in the ice sheet, started the first rain to fall, and made the earth shake, knocked earth off it's axis, caused the wobble, increased continental drift, and the mass moving from upper atmos to earth surface level sped up the rotation of the earth to todays speed (pretty close). The slow roatation and the opaque sunlight coming through the ice sheet was like a green house with days that lasted humdreds of years and that is why the plants were so big, lizards were big, and the chicken skinned dinos were happy .... after that ice sheet dropped, the cycles of earth have been under sun influence and that is why we have ice ages and hot spells, but the average weather on earth since the flood has been pretty good for humans.
It's just an idea, a guess, a maybe, that I read one time.