patrick.net

FortWayne says

But what if it's also learned and many of us are wrong?

Well, there is no evidence to indicate that it is learned. Perhaps, at best when one is raised accepting homosexuality they are less likely to suppress there natural sexual desires. But, what if we are wrong and there is a learned element to homosexuality...

FortWayne says

Consequences of being wrong here are a heavy burden and shame to bear.

The only burden and/or shame that result are a social construct. If someone were to wave a magic wand and make the US totally accepting towards homosexuals there would be no shame or burden. However, there would be fewer teen suicides (especially in Utah), fewer homeless teens (especially in Utah), fewer parents burdened with shame because they made a gay kid (especially in Utah), fewer people killed and beaten for being gay.

That is a risk I would be willing to take.

Oh, yes, and there would be fewer flamboyant gay pride parades.

Unfortunately there is no magic wand and acceptance of any minority is a long slow process.

Bap33 says

In today's America, the liberal voter mentality is very close to the pack mentality.

Wow, the hypocrisy. Democrats are arguing with each other all the time and can't get anything done. Meanwhile, Republicans all mindlessly chant the same sound bites. And the liberals are the ones with pack mentality?

Bap33 says

Christianity and God's message, not the pope, helped end the Roman empire because of how it changed man's idea of self and freedom, in my opinion.

So we agree then that belief in Christ was a cause in the fall of the Roman Empire.

Remembering that the last emperors of Rome were Christians, but not true Christians? Right?

Only, those that receive the Bap seal of approval are "true" Christians.

Bap33 says

only athiests claim that religion is immoral

Yes, and I can justify that belief. Let's talk about your religion in particular and how it relates to this thread.

Your "unerring and unquestionable" bible says

When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die.

That's right. Your religion says we must murder men who have gay sex. Advocating such murder is evil and has evil consequences such as the murder of Mathew Shepard and countless other men.

This boy did not deserve to die. He was killed by bigotry cause by your religion and advocated by your bible. That's plenty of justification that your religion is immoral.

I can further generalize this statement to include all religions because all religion are based on lies. And when you base control of people and philosophies on lies, you get bad philosophies that advocate evil acts.

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says

According to your religion, the entire fucking universe was created for the sole purpose of man.

not correct

Dan,

Bap, does have his own very customized dogma. One cannot assume it adheres to "standard" Christian dogmas.

One of my favorite Bap theories is that the earth was once encased, somewhere at or above the thermosphere, in an ice shell. This shell was responsible for a few things that I forget. I think one was the melting of the shell caused Noah's flood.

leo707 says

Bap, does have his own very customized dogma. One cannot assume it adheres to "standard" Christian dogmas.

Oh, he's one of those Christians that believes the Native Americans were a lost tribe of Judah and that Lord Xenu dropped atomic bombs from 747s to trap alien souls on Earth. Okay, that's much more reasonable.

Bap33 says

why do you mention rape? surely you do not profess that all male/male sodomy in prison is by force. THat would be illogical.

No, it is not all rape, but a lot of it is.

Bap33 says

Is all sodomy rape the first few times?

Not "all", but yes, this is often the case in prison. This is also how pimps will "break" women and turn them into prostitutes.

Bap33 says

You seem to have an intimate understanding of male/male sodomy tendancy details that I do not, so please elaborate.

Once again Bap I have no interest in providing you with "material." You are going to have to come up with your own prison scenarios for your reel.

Bap33 says

Why did you make the assumption of rape?

It is not that I am assuming rape, but I mentioned rape because rape is what bothers me. Also, because it is very common in place where you put a bunch of anti-social aggressive men--like in prison. Consensual sex does not bother me. If adult consenting men--in prison or not--want to have sex I could really care less. If they can build strong healthy relationships, then I am happy for them.

jvolstad says

Because this is how Realtors are born.

LOLOLOLOL!

leo707 says

Bap33 says

Is all sodomy rape the first few times?

Not "all", but yes, this is often the case in prison. This is also how pimps will "break" women and turn them into prostitutes.

Bap33 is very fixated on sodomy rape for an alleged heterosexual.

Dan8267 says

leo707 says

Bap33 says

Is all sodomy rape the first few times?

Not "all", but yes, this is often the case in prison. This is also how pimps will "break" women and turn them into prostitutes.

Bap33 is very fixated on sodomy rape for an alleged heterosexual.

Yes, "alleged"...

leo707 says

One of my favorite Bap theories is that the earth was once encased, somewhere at or above the thermosphere, in an ice shell. This shell was responsible for a few things that I forget. I think one was the melting of the shell caused Noah's flood.

Sounds like snowball earth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth

I doubt the ice sheet was more than a few miles thick though

leo707 says

Dan8267 says

leo707 says

Bap33 says

Is all sodomy rape the first few times?

Not "all", but yes, this is often the case in prison. This is also how pimps will "break" women and turn them into prostitutes.

Bap33 is very fixated on sodomy rape for an alleged heterosexual.

Yes, "alleged"...

Yes, one does wonder about someone with such strong negative beliefs about sodomy yet chooses such a blatantly homoerotic avatar.

New Renter says

Yes, one does wonder about someone with such strong negative beliefs about sodomy yet chooses such a blatantly homoerotic avatar.

I said that in the original post. Bap reminds me of Eric Massa.

New Renter says

leo707 says

One of my favorite Bap theories is that the earth was once encased, somewhere at or above the thermosphere, in an ice shell. This shell was responsible for a few things that I forget. I think one was the melting of the shell caused Noah's flood.

Sounds like snowball earth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth

I doubt the ice sheet was more than a few miles thick though

that is correct leo. The asteroid that hit the Ucatan and took out the dinos also knocked a hole in the ice sheet, started the first rain to fall, and made the earth shake, knocked earth off it's axis, caused the wobble, increased continental drift, and the mass moving from upper atmos to earth surface level sped up the rotation of the earth to todays speed (pretty close). The slow roatation and the opaque sunlight coming through the ice sheet was like a green house with days that lasted humdreds of years and that is why the plants were so big, lizards were big, and the chicken skinned dinos were happy .... after that ice sheet dropped, the cycles of earth have been under sun influence and that is why we have ice ages and hot spells, but the average weather on earth since the flood has been pretty good for humans.
It's just an idea, a guess, a maybe, that I read one time.

leo707 says

No, it is not all rape, but a lot of it is.

If the prisons were mixed, would man/women sex be consensual most times or rape? Give a percentage please.
What is the percentage of male/male sex in prison that is rape vs consensual?
When a male prisoner rapes a male prisoner, which one is "gay"? Both?

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says

In today's America, the liberal voter mentality is very close to the pack mentality.

Wow, the hypocrisy. Democrats are arguing with each other all the time and can't get anything done. Meanwhile, Republicans all mindlessly chant the same sound bites. And the liberals are the ones with pack mentality?

hey Dan, ummm, if you just count the small group on here that is busy holding your cape off the ground, you will find you are leading a pack as we speak(type). lol

leo707 says

Bap33 says

Christianity and God's message, not the pope, helped end the Roman empire because of how it changed man's idea of self and freedom, in my opinion.

So we agree then that belief in Christ was a cause in the fall of the Roman Empire.

Remembering that the last emperors of Rome were Christians, but not true Christians? Right?

Only, those that receive the Bap seal of approval are "true" Christians.

the proof is in the pudding. A person calling themselves a Christian has nothing to do with a person being a Christian. For the 9 zillionth time.

New Renter says

Bap33 says

very basic history of man. You are suggesting I am wrong? If so, based on what?

I am suggesting that your knowledge of the sex life of the early Latins is flawed.

you are wrong, but could be more wrong with some effort.

Still at it! Here's something to lighten up, another epic classic - enjoy ;)

http://www.youtube.com/embed/LazrAzBP_0I&noredirect=1

Bap33 says

the proof is in the pudding. A person calling themselves a Christian has nothing to do with a person being a Christian. For the 9 zillionth time.

Tell that the the IRS. If the "church" they go to doesn't have to pay real estate or income tax, I get to call the patrons Christians.

If Dan8267 says

When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die.That's right. Your religion says we must murder men who have gay sex. Advocating such murder is evil and has evil consequences such as the murder of Mathew Shepard and countless other men.

my good fellow, is the OT law the law of the land? Do we kill birds and sheep each week? You are being dishonest in your approach for some reason. ANd the blasts are coming faster and harder from you and your co-captians now that my point was made about the simple act of waiting in line and male/male coupling. "Truth hurts" comes to mind. I know, I know, atheits good, Christians bad. Copy that.

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says

the proof is in the pudding. A person calling themselves a Christian has nothing to do with a person being a Christian. For the 9 zillionth time.

Tell that the the IRS. If the "church" they go to doesn't have to pay real estate or income tax, I get to call the patrons Christians.

sure you can, and what you call people matters only to you.

Dan8267 says

New Renter says

Yes, one does wonder about someone with such strong negative beliefs about sodomy yet chooses such a blatantly homoerotic avatar.

I said that in the original post. Bap reminds me of Eric Massa.

Captian America is only homoerotic to male sodomites, and he's ok with that. The tights do have a function.

Per andrewsullivn today;
"What some have yet to understand is that marriage equality is not an "attack" on "morality". It's a way to affirm the already existing commitment to one another that a gay couple can achieve, to create a stable home where none existed before, to affirm values of mutual responsibility and care that are conservative, in as much as they protect the family from the acid of homophobia. It's homophobia that tears families apart, not same-sex orientation. And it's marriage that brings families together - including, at last, the gay members within it.

In many organic social changes right now, what appears to be de-moralizing is actually a form of re-moralizing, devising ways to channel already existing behavior into new and more productive and more responsible forms. That's what the marriage equality movement has in common with the fight against marijuana prohibition. It admits reality - loads of people are gay and even more people smoke weed - and makes the best of it, in true Burkean fashion. It offers civil marriage to gay people and a perfectly marketable, legal product to marijuana-enthusiasts - giving states revenues, parents' more security, and millions of people a reason to watch HD TV. It folds people into middle class society, rather than marginalizing them outside".

Bap33 says

my good fellow, is the OT law the law of the land? Do we kill birds and sheep each week? You are being dishonest in your approach for some reason.

If you want to disavow half the Bible, then fine. I disavow the entire damn thing. However, if you are taking the stance that the New Testament is all that matters, then what in the New Testament says that homosexual sex is a sin or immoral? Jesus never said anything about gay sex being bad.

You can't have it both ways. No pun intended.

Let's go with the New Testament is good and the Old Testament is evil -- forgetting that the New Testament is pro-slavery for the moment. Once again, I ask the question, "Why the hell is gay sex immoral?"

Bap33 says

ANd the blasts are coming faster and harder from you and your co-captians now that my point was made about the simple act of waiting in line and male/male coupling.

I must have missed that. Exactly how did you make the leap of logic from "cutting in line is immoral" to "gay sex is immoral"?

Bap33 says

That is why you see cutting in line as only being wrong because it harms the lone individual. Order, process, proper conduct, are all part of why waiting in line is a good thing and, for the record, waiting in line is ONLY needed for the good of the group. A singular person has no line. THere must be plural people to need the line. Waiting your turn is better for a moral society, just like shunning male/male coupling is.

Oh, I missed this because it was preceded by so much bullshit I had to stop reading. I can only take so many logical fallacies in a post before I just give up on it.

So, cutting in line is immoral because it creates chaos, interferes with a process, and is improper conduct. Surely decreases in efficiency are bad in the practical sense, but not necessarily in the moral sense. And the underlying reasons for all your complaints about cutting in line ultimately have to do with inflicting costs on individuals. In fact, there is no way to inflict costs on a group except by inflicting costs on the individuals that constitute that group.

More importantly, whether or not waiting your turn in a line is better for a moral society has nothing to do with shunning gay sex. How the fuck does calling gay sex immoral help society or any individual? It most certainly harms society and individuals. When a person like Mathew Shepard is murdered horrifically because of "shunning male/male coupling", it hurts the person murder, his family, his friends, his neighbors, and the community at large.

If you base morality on what makes community runs smoothly, then it is a moral imperative to fully accept homosexuality and homosexual relations. By the very principle you propose, it is utterly immoral to shun homosexual acts.

By demonizing gay sex, you not only harm society in all the ways I just mentioned, but you also create strife within families that have a homosexual member. Such strife can and does tear apart families unnecessarily. Given your emphasis on the need of strong families for society, this is yet another reason that demonizing gay sex is immoral.

Dan8267 says

By demonizing gay sex, you not only harm society in all the ways I just mentioned, but you also create strife within families that have a homosexual member. Such strife can and does tear apart families unnecessarily. Given your emphasis on the need of strong families for society, this is yet another reason that demonizing gay sex is immoral.

Dan, remove the words "gay" and "sex" and insert thievery, or murder. And where it says "homosexual member" insert thief or murderer. Now, read the sentance again and explain how soiciety is correct to protect itself from the actions of individuals that just happened to be born with the mental/physical condition to be such people. And then, go read the reasons you and others gave as to why cutting in line is immoral. You are willing to shun line cutters for the good of the one person that gets cut in front of, and that will bring strife to the family of the cutter. I am willing to shun line cutters for the cause of normalcy, order, good, and for the betterment of society - knowing that their family may be harmed, but hoping that their family has an understanding of what is moral, and why.

What happened to the discussion about prison behavior and prisoners that are sodomized and/or sodomizing. If they are gay, you would have to say it is no different than having women and men together in prison. But the very mention of that resulted in "Oh no there will be RAPE!". That conversation was going well and then fell silent. I'm not suprized. THe pro-deviant-male-sodomite crowd has no problem subjecting male prisoners to sodomite rape by force, but is against the idea of male/female prisoner sex. That is some queer thought process.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/04/homophobic_maybe_you_re_gay_the_new_york_times_on_a_new_study_of_secret_sexuality_.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/09/homophobia-homosexuality-gay_n_1412846.html

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/04/09/study-homophobic-people-likely-repressing-homosexual-attraction/

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-big-questions/201106/homophobic-men-most-aroused-gay-male-porn

http://www.care2.com/causes/study-homophobia-masks-gay-feelings.html

Food for thought?

Bap33 says

my good fellow, is the OT law the law of the land?

So, man's law trumps god's law in your opinion? Hmmm...that does not sound very Christian, putting the law of man above the law of god...

Bap33 says

A person calling themselves a Christian has nothing to do with a person being a Christian.

So, how do we know you are actually a "real" Christian? You seem to pick-and-choose which of gods laws you want to follow.

If "man" passed a law requiring you to partake in homosexual behavior would you just shrug your shoulders and say,"Oh, well! I gotta follow man's law over gods."

Bap33 says

What happened to the discussion about prison behavior and prisoners that are sodomized and/or sodomizing.

I believe that you and I were the only ones taking part in that discussion, and the Pnet time I have is limited.

Bap33 says

If the prisons were mixed, would man/women sex be consensual most times or rape? Give a percentage please.
What is the percentage of male/male sex in prison that is rape vs consensual?

I don't know I would have to do some research on this, and I am sure the data is spotty. Why is this important to you?

When a male prisoner rapes a male prisoner, which one is "gay"? Both?

Gays often become the targets of rape in prison. You should look up "situational homosexuality"; that will answer your question.

Bap33 says

THe pro-deviant-male-sodomite crowd has no problem subjecting male prisoners to sodomite rape by force, but is against the idea of male/female prisoner sex.

?
Perhaps you misunderstood my following comment:
leo707 says

It is not that I am assuming rape, but I mentioned rape because rape is what bothers me. Also, because it is very common in place where you put a bunch of anti-social aggressive men--like in prison. Consensual sex does not bother me. If adult consenting men--in prison or not--want to have sex I could really care less. If they can build strong healthy relationships, then I am happy for them.

To clarify...
Rape (any kind) = bad
Consenting sex (any kind) = fine*

*While I think that consenting adults should be able to have any kind of sex they want there are things done in the bedroom by both homo and heteros that would put me off, and I am pretty tolerant. You want percentages? 90% of people are shocked and disgusted by what 90% of people do for sexual gratification.

Bap33 says

That is some queer thought process.

Well, we agree that there does seem to be some queer thought process going on...

New Renter says

leo707 says

One of my favorite Bap theories is that the earth was once encased, somewhere at or above the thermosphere, in an ice shell. This shell was responsible for a few things that I forget. I think one was the melting of the shell caused Noah's flood.

Sounds like snowball earth:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth

I doubt the ice sheet was more than a few miles thick though

A sheet of ice sitting on the surface of the earth? How pedestrian!

Lift that sheet of ice so that it is above the atmosphere, and now you have a theory that sounds reasonable to Bap. Well, reasonable as long as it agrees with the parts of the bible Bap chooses to believe in.

From the former GOP RNC Chair on same sex marriage;

Ken Mehlman: Making the Marriage Equality Case
November 21, 2012
AFER Boardmember and former RNC chair Ken Mehlman pens an Op/Ed in the Wall Street Journal making the conservative case for marriage equality.

“They say demography is destiny, and in American politics destiny has belonged to those who best aligned their core beliefs with the rapidly changing and ever-improving citizenry.

“Conservatives—and I count myself as one—succeed when we attract new supporters to timeless traditions. The Republican Party’s loss in this month’s presidential election resulted partly from a failure to embrace some of America’s fastest-growing constituencies. One area of significant change is in attitudes toward legal equality for gay Americans.

“Some misperceive the issue of marriage equality as exclusively progressive. Yet what could be more conservative than support for more freedom and less government? And what freedom is more basic than the right to marry the person you love? Smaller, less intrusive government surely includes an individual deciding whom to marry. Allowing civil marriage for same-sex couples will cultivate community stability, encourage fidelity and commitment, and foster family values.
…

“Conservatives don’t need to change core convictions to embrace the growing support for equal rights for gay Americans. It is sufficient to recognize the inherent conservatism in citizens’ desire to marry, to be judged on their work, and not to be singled out for higher taxes or bullying at school. These objectives can be achieved while also protecting religious liberty, as demonstrated by states enacting civil marriage with exemptions for religious institutions.”

leo707 says

To clarify...
Rape (any kind) = bad
Consenting sex (any kind) = fine*

It's really that simple. Freedom is what the US is supposedly all about. It's part of your civil liberties to stick your finger in somebody else's nose and pull the boogers out as long as it is consentual. And others have the freedom of association, or better non-association if they don't want to be around others that rub them the wrong way.

leo707 says

To clarify...
Rape (any kind) = bad
Consenting sex (any kind) = fine*

umm, that is not correct. There is a requirement of age and mental condition inorder to even be able to legally give consent ... so, one could argue that someone suffering from homosexuality is exibiting mental issues and therefore is not able to give consent. That makes the male/male sex act (any kind) a form of abuse and rape.

Bap33 says

There is a requirement of age and mental condition inorder to even be able to legally give consent

Yes...

Bap33 says

so, one could argue that someone suffering from homosexuality is exibiting mental issues and therefore is not able to give consent.

A. Not all mental conditions prevent someone from giving consent.

B. Homosexuality is not viewed as a "mental issue" by any professional body that deals with mental issues (this has been responded to earlier in this thread). There is no evidence to believe that homosexuality is a "mental issue."

C. Even if this were the case. Following your logic, homosexuals would not be able to consent to heterosexual sex either.

Bap33 says

That makes the male/male sex act (any kind) a form of abuse and rape.

Thanks you for finally getting to the point.

leo707 says

Lift that sheet of ice so that it is above the atmosphere, and now you have a theory that sounds reasonable to Bap. Well, reasonable as long as it agrees with the parts of the bible Bap chooses to believe in.

This is an issue with monotheists generally; their personal god always agrees with them, and they come to believe that they are God. (See Dan's earlier thread on this topic.) The world was covered by a giant ice dome in the sky, until Captain America FKA Thor heroically hammered it away to make the world safe for American democracy which must impose Bap's theocratic beliefs on everyone. BTW Catholics aren't really monotheists, they have recreated the Roman pantheon with "patron saints" (minor deities) for every purpose, which insulates them somewhat (but certainly not entirely) from Bap's delusions of grandeur.

leo707 says

There is no evidence to believe that homosexuality is a "mental issue."

Wrong. A healthy normal male human is attracted to healthy normal female humans. A male human is attracted sexually to a male human due to mental illness, or due to a male hormone/gland birth defect. In simple terms, male humans that are willing to couple with other male humans are either perverts or wired as women.

loe mentioned that the male population in prison in mostly males with mental conditions and birth defects -- one of the obvious reasons that they are in prison in the first place ... and it is well known that prisons have lots and lots of male/male coupling going on (wanted and unwanted). The mental health of those performing these acts should be questioned .... along with those not in prison.