patrick.net

Homosexuality is wrong! Our bodies are not design for this and they need help. We make a big deal about 1% of the population. Silence all homos and get them treated because they are sick and they don't think correctly.

CaptainShuddup says

No less of that than the constant "Chase Bank" commercials, the gratuitous gay plot twists in every HBO, Showtime, and Stars original programming, as well as feature films, my kids being sent home with "Legalize gay mariage" because some Liberal shit head parent thought it would be cute in an election year, and took it upon her self to off load one on to her daughters friends,

1. Don't watch HBO, Showtime, and Stars if you don't like their programming. I don't, except for Real Time with Bill Maher, which I do like. There is so much good stuff to watch, I don't even have the time to do that, so why watch anything you don't like. It's not like T.V. is compulsory. Watch the Science Channel and certain shows on The History Channel instead. (Some things on the History Channel are crap, others are great).

2. Regardless of whether or not you think gay sex is immoral, as an American you should champion gay marriage because it is a right under the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment as demonstrated in the Supreme Court case of Loving v Virginia 388 U.S. 1 (1967). To not support gay marriage is to not support equality under law and the very founding principles of this country.

And that is why the "liberal shithead" thought your kids should be informed of the one of the most important political events that they are living through. I suppose that liberal shithead also thinks your kids should know that we fought a revolution to gain government by the people and we fought a Civil War to end slavery and preserve the union. The real question is why conservatives don't also think that such understanding is important.

A republic composed of well-informed and educated people will perform far better than one composed of ignorant idiots.

I'll support gay marriage when the Liberal propaganda machine stops their assault on the Family unit. Just look at the latest Direct TV campaign that features a dysfunctional family with the wife and husband.
CNN featured a story they were proud of today, how 50 shades of grey led to a divorce, "Really" there's nothing else out there to report?
There's nothing in the constitution that protects Gays. And I can give two shits what some Liberal judge in 1967 ruled. I bet you would probably get a whole different ruling today from that same judge had he know then how it would turn out now.
Families are vital to a nation, Bob and Franks life partner status is not.
Bob and Frank are incapable of churning out successors.

FortWayne says

Sure thing Dan.

It's a bad example for children. At certain age a child will do everything they see, and I don't think any parent would want their child to be messed up by seeing homosexuality and thinking it as normal and something they should do.

First of all thank you FortWayne for stepping up here. I appreciate you are voicing your opinions in such a reasonable manner.

As for setting a bad example tell me, what is it about homosexuality that you see as a bad example for children?
As a father myself I do not agree with you in the least. I see homosexuality as a part of the natural world. It makes perfect sense to me that some members of a species will be sacrificed - reproductively speaking - for the bigger picture. Biologically speaking it makes sense for a large family to have a few non-reproducing members who are then available to help with the children of the breeders. In a primitive society this could lead to lower a lower mortality rate and a greater success of the family.

If you want an extreme example of an alternate family structure look to ants and bees. Their colonies are comprised almost exclusively of non-breeding members yet are far more successful in species longevity than we.

CaptainShuddup says

I'll support gay marriage when the Liberal propaganda machine stops their assault on the Family unit. Just look at the latest Direct TV campaign that features a dysfunctional family with the wife and husband.

CNN featured a story they were proud of today, how 50 shades of grey led to a divorce, "Really" there's nothing else out there to report?

There's nothing in the constitution that protects Gays. And I can give two shits what some Liberal judge in 1967 ruled. I bet you would probably get a whole different ruling today from that same judge had he know then how it would turn out now.

Families are vital to a nation, Bob and Franks life partner status is not.

Bob and Frank are incapable of churning out successors.

Perhaps the gays will disarm when the Christian right does.

Why is there so much gayness on TV? Because its titillating.

In a similar vein Star Trek was also criticized for a kiss between a white man (Capt'n Kirk) and a black woman (Uhura). Sure Kirk had already banged blue and green and pointy eared babes but kissing a black woman? Fire up the torches boys!

Nowadays? Meh. The only thing I think most guys feel is envy. Nichelle Nichols was a fine looking woman!

Bobpak says

Homosexuality is wrong! Our bodies are not design for this and they need help. We make a big deal about 1% of the population. Silence all homos and get them treated because they are sick and they don't think correctly.

Argue your point rationally please.

Dan8267 says

Dan8267 invited Pope Benedict XVI to fact-check this discussion.

Invite another expert to fact-check this discussion.

Thanks for inviting an expert! Kind of doubt he will reply, but it's always good to ask experts for their opinion...

FortWayne says

I'm not saying it is immoral in a religious kind of way. I'm saying that it is bad for society in a long run. Goes against evolution and Darwinism. It adds a cost to society.

Evolution and survival of a species happens as a whole group as much as it does on the individual level. There are many traits that may prevent an individual from breeding, but will help the groups overall success.

For example -- Self-sacrifice -- many species (us included) have been evolutionarily "programmed" to do things that will prevent and individual from reproducing, but would help the group survive:
-300 young Spartans give up the rest of their child making years to protect all of Greece
-A bird screams an alarm to warn the flock of approaching danger, but draws the attention of the predator that then ends the birds life
-An American soldier dies saving a child that was not even remotely related to him
-etc...

Raising young (especially human) requires tremendous resources. A group that has a built in genetic trait that insures some adults will be childless means that the children that do get born will have a greater chance at getting the resources they need to be successful. The great thing about gay(or the Kinsey spectrum rather) --rather than just infertile-- is that if more children are needed then they are capable of creating them.

FortWayne says

It doesn't in our society because of our success. Our capitalism is so successful, that almost everyone survives.

Actually, I would say that homosexuality is not as necessary in our society because of our success. We are so successful as a species that we don't need the "gay uncle" to help assure that a child survives. These days the "gay uncle" may throw some cash in a college fund and/or help with babysitting when the parent want to have a night on the town. This help to assure a child's success, but is not crucial to survival.

Dan8267 says

OK, so at least Fort Wayne has the balls to provide reasons.

Yes, thanks Fort for providing an honest response to the question.

Wikipedia has an A - Z list of American Gays, Lesbians, and Bi-Sexuals:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gay,_lesbian_or_bisexual_people

I would like to see the argument that none of these people added, produced, or contributed to American society.

FortWayne says

It's a bad example for children. At certain age a child will do everything they see, and I don't think any parent would want their child to be messed up by seeing homosexuality and thinking it as normal and something they should do.

I am still not quite sure what about homosexuality is a bad example.

Yes, children will "play-act" everything they see. After spending a weekend with some friends that have a breastfeeding baby, my little girl spent the next week "breastfeeding" her dolls and stuffed animals.

There are lots of things that heterosexuals do that I would not want my kids seeing. No, I would not take my kids to the Folsom Street Fair, but I would also not take them to a swingers party or read them Fifty Shades of Grey as a bedtime story. It may come as a surprise to some but gays don't immediate engage in butt-sex at every social gathering they attend.

Seeing two people in a respectful committed relationship sets a good example.

Do gays really have it that bad in modern society? Have you ever been to ft lauderdale, rehobeth beach, san fransisco etc. or any other towns known for heavy gay populations? They sure as shit seem to have a remarkably high quality of life. I don't see some level of discrimination worth fighting against. We have limited time on this planet and with that time, limited energy, so its best we focus it in useful ways. Every minute you spend attempting to reason with unreasonable people for their flawed opinions, is a minute you missed where you could have been getting a bj from a female.

Imagine if y'all concentrated your energy on something more useful, in an attempt to better inform the ignorant, en route to freeing a bloc of our populace that actually is still openly allowed to be persecuted in todays society? Marijuana users (and potential mmj users). They are jailed by the millions, and even you hoity toity well to do leftists that claim to want to help others, still label them as stoners as if they are some dreggs of society,,,,,pffft. Get a clue, than get a life, squids

There are lots of things heterosexuals do that I would not want my kids seeing/doing

Yea no shit. How many parents literally poison their children openly with sugar at every turn? Could there be any worse example than to be ignorant of proper nutrition, while children suffer from malnutrition, and are literally forced to become sugar addicts, which causes immense physical harm, and is THE gateway drug to a lifetime of more drugs and addiction and the majority of health problems we see today.

errc says

Do gays really have it that bad in modern society? Have you ever been to ft lauderdale, rehobeth beach, san fransisco etc. or any other towns known for heavy gay populations? They sure as shit seem to have a remarkably high quality of life. I don't see some level of discrimination worth fighting against.

I am glad to know that the gays you have observed are representative of the gay experience in the US.

errc says

Marijuana users (and potential mmj users).

Oh, common...do they really have it that bad? It just got legalized in two states. Have you ever been to Colorado or Oakland? I see people openly smoking pot all the time!

Besides every minute that they spend complaining about pot laws they could have been drinking a beer.

errc says

...is a minute you missed where you could have been getting a bj from a female.

In the time it took you to write that post you could have gone out and gotten a bj from a man.

I voted FOR gay marriage in Maryland because I want the gays to pay the extra income taxes in the form of the marriage penalty.

Leo707, I didn't quote your post in case you come back to your senses and decide you'd rather just delete it. I wish I could believe you were just being facetious, especially for someone that is most always of sound mind.

Do they really have it that bad? Have you ever been to prison? I can attest, they certainly don't have it that good. It "got legalized" in two states?? Well woohoo, I might as well sit on my black dildo and spin myself like a top until I puke! Or blow my wad, whichever cums first. Remember, this isn't the united states of california.

"Besides, every minute they spend bitching about pot laws, they could have spent drinking a beer"

I guess I am missing your point here, if you even had one. Feel free to elaborate

And thanks for your concern, but id have to pass on your offer for the blowie. My weiner needs a break for the afternoon, my girl woke up fussy and argumentative this morning, so I ended up an hour late for work after all the make up sucking and fucking.

errc says

They sure as shit seem to have a remarkably high quality of life.

Yep!

errc says

I wish I could believe you were just being facetious, especially for someone that is most always of sound mind.

I was being facetious.

If you had followed the links it should have made that clear.

I was drawing a comparison to your comments on homosexuality.

errc says

Remember, this isn't the united states of california.

This is also not the united states of, "ft lauderdale, rehobeth beach, san fransisco etc. or any other towns known for heavy gay populations?"

errc says

"Besides, every minute they spend bitching about pot laws, they could have spent drinking a beer"

I guess I am missing your point here, if you even had one. Feel free to elaborate

errc says

a minute you missed where you could have been getting a bj from a female.

My point being that to a homosexual a female is not a viable alternative for a bj, just like for a marijuana smoker a beer is not a viable alternative.

However, thanks for making it clear that if you weiner was not in need of a break you would be up for a bj from a man.

My apologies, I'm posting from my phone so I rarely click on links

To your moment of clarity,,,,don't threaten me with a good time! Who knows, id probably enjoy it.

leo707 says

Actually, I would say that homosexuality is not as necessary in our society because of our success. We are so successful as a species that we don't need the "gay uncle" to help assure that a child survives. These days the "gay uncle" may throw some cash in a college fund and/or help with babysitting when the parent want to have a night on the town. This help to assure a child's success, but is not crucial to survival.

Perhaps not in much of the US but there are plenty of shit poor communities in the third world that are still on the edge of survival.

Dan8267 says

To not support gay marriage is to not support equality under law and the very founding principles of this country.

how do you plan to legally prove someone is gay?

The topic moved pretty fast since last night, but my points are still the same and you agreed with me. It is as basic as right and wrong, moral and immoral, pro-society and anti-society. My personal view says: it is wrong and immoral and anti-society (not social) to support male / male coupling. Masculine is not to submit in this way. I guess that is why the crazy arab islamuslites like to bugger their fallen enemies? Your view is: supporting male / male coupling is ok. Pretty much sums it up.

Why do people stand in line? There is no law. THere is right and wrong, moral and immoral, and the requirements of a functioning society where freedom exists. So, rather than the nasty perverted stuff, explain why people stand in line. (well, everyone except those fine people in Jersey waiting for gas) (oh, wait, is that not a sign of a breakdown of society? yes, it is. Thanks for playing)

FortWayne says

It's a bad example for children. At certain age a child will do everything they see, and I don't think any parent would want their child to be messed up by seeing homosexuality and thinking it as normal and something they should do.

Here's what I think you are proposing, and I apologize if I'm not getting it right. Homosexuality is immoral because it encourages children to think that homosexuality is normal and to become homosexual.

Assuming that I got this premise right, here's how I would respond.

1. This premise is circular and therefore meaningless. If homosexuality is not immoral then encouraging other people to participate in it cannot be immoral either. This premise could not possibly justify that homosexuality is immoral because it assumes that homosexuality is immoral in the first place.

2. The term "normal" is not particularly meaningful and it certainly has no bearing on morality. Let's take one arbitrary criteria for "normal". It doesn't matter if we substitute other arbitrary criteria as the analysis is the same, but let's use popularity so we can do some examples.

4% of the U.S. population is gay. So let's say normal is 5% or more and abnormal is less than 5%.

It is abnormal to save another human being's life. Clearly less than 5% of the U.S. population have saved another person's life. In fact, saving a person's life is much more rare than being gay. You are more likely to run into a gay person than a hero.

The inescapable logical conclusion is that heros are immoral people. Since it is not normal to save a person's life, it must be immoral to do so.

Adopting a child when you could have your own biological child is not normal either. Is adopting a child rather than producing your own immoral? That's a hard stance to take.

Again, if we use some other arbitrary criteria for what it means to be normal, nothing changes. Let's define "normal" as conforming to the arbitrary cultural preferences of the majority of the population.

By that standard enjoying classical music like Mozart is not normal. Listening to Britney Spears is. Is listening to Mozart immoral since it violates the prevailing culture? One only has to watch the TruTV channel for ample demonstration that cultural standards do not make good moral standards.

Of course, if cultural conformity determines what is moral and what isn't, that means that morality varies considerably from culture to culture. Gay sex may be immoral here, but it certainly wasn't immoral in ancient Greece. To argue that morality based on culture is simply to say that we can make having gay sex moral by doing much, much more of it. I suppose then we could also make murder and rape moral by doing much, much more of that.

Furthermore, in many middle eastern countries it is "normal" to honor kill rape victims. Such honor killings would have to be moral if the morality of an act is based on how "normal" it is. Conversely, it is abnormal for a woman to vote or get an education, and clearly the Islamic men do consider it immoral for a woman to pursue such matters. I would argue, however, that this is nothing more than the corruption of the very concept of morality to justify using violence to enforce arbitrary cultural norms.

In conclusion, I see no evidence that upsetting cultural norms is immoral or bad. Actually, I hold the exact opposite philosophy. Upsetting cultural norms is exactly what the people in a society must do in order to advance that society and further social justice. Interracial marriage certainly wasn't normal in the 1950s, but that didn't make it immoral. All social advances are precisely turning the unimaginable into the normal.

Not to beat a dead horse, but there are also two more points regarding this premise. First is that the idea that people can be turned gay by watching gay acts is ridiculous. Don't believe me, then perform an experiment. Watch a few hours of gay porn and see how much gay sex you want. Children are not turned gay by watching pro-gay t.v. Trust me, I watched He-man growing up.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/32FB-gYr49Y

The fact that I watch this growing up and haven't sucked any dicks is proof positive that no gay musical, cartoon, or children's character is going to turn kids gay.

Furthermore, given that heterosexual sex is "normal" by whatever definition your using, why aren't six-year-olds fucking like crazy? Oh, because six-year-olds aren't engaging in sex to mimic adults any more than they wash dishes to mimic adults. And as for teens, a straight teen is going to want straight sex and a gay teen is going to want to have gay sex regardless of what they've seen in movies, television, or on the Internet. It's biological.

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

3.2 See 1.3 Homosexuality occurs throughout nature. Clearly homosexuality does not cause extinctions. And if it did, then it would be a self-correcting problem as natural selection would have eliminated it. Instead, homosexuality thrives in nature across many species.

It doesn't in our society because of our success. Our capitalism is so successful, that almost everyone survives. One can be born with millions of diseases and abnormalities and still make it to old age. And now with artificial insemination, some of these even get to procreate their bad genes.

I think you missed the point. Homosexuality doesn't cause problems in countless other species including elephants, dolphins, and chimps. Clearly it is not the "sheer success" of our species that is preventing homosexuality from driving us to extinction.

FortWayne says

I'm not saying it is immoral in a religious kind of way. I'm saying that it is bad for society in a long run. Goes against evolution and Darwinism. It adds a cost to society.

Well, this thread is about the morality, not practicality of homosexuality. I don't want to get off on a tangent about all the practical advantages that are attributed to homosexual behavior by anthropologists and biologists. Sufficient to say, there are plenty of arguments that performing homosexual acts is beneficial to social species and one has to look no further than our closest living relatives, the Bonobo chimpanzees for ample examples. One could argue that gay sex promotes world peace based on the biological evidence alone.

Nevertheless, the only question this thread deals with "Why the hell is gay sex immoral?" and that question has nothing to do with practicality.

Finally, as an atheist, I can assure you that questions of morality are not the exclusive domain of religions. As a rational, thinking atheist I ponder the nature of morality all the time and consider many difficult moral dilemmas. If something is truly immoral, like drowning puppies in a river, then it should be easy to justify why that thing is immoral regardless of religious beliefs and mythology.

Dan8267 says

Here's what I think you are proposing, and I apologize if I'm not getting it right. Homosexuality is immoral because it encourages children to think that homosexuality is normal and to become homosexual.

My argument, as a parent who has raised a child. I tell you kids repeat everything they see, everything. Which is why parents like us would not like children to see homosexuality. We don't want children repeating that behavior. And at small age they can't comprehend why certain things are the way they are, and why some men dress and look like women.

I grew up in an older society, it seems like we never had seen a big deal about gays. Back in the days media wasn't exploding with gay rights activism, and parading gays. A child could grow normally without being exposed to this harm. Today it is a lot harder for parents.

That is my argument, disorders should be treated not celebrated.

CaptainShuddup says

I'll support gay marriage when the Liberal propaganda machine stops their assault on the Family unit.

To oppose the legality of gay marriage simply because you are upset with what Viacom airs is quite frankly childish and stupid, and it should be beneath you.

Would you seek to ban interracial marriages if you didn't like what BET aired?

Really, my captain, my captain, that's a stupid reason to oppose turning 6% of the U.S. population into second class citizens. It's a real shitty reason to turn a single person into a second class citizen.

Dan8267 says

It's biological.

yea .. so in most criminal activity and all perverted activity .. and all other activity and mental conditons. Being born an axe murderer does not have axe murder reduced to "a choice".

By the way, in your above post you mixed up valor with moral. Traits of character, such as valor and courage and ethics and honor and honesty, are extreemly important and were charished in pre-progressive-era America. Right around 1963ish the progressives began pushing America away from such silly things as character. Look at us now! nice huh?

FortWayne says

That is my argument, disorders should be treated not celebrated.

AMEN!!!

New Renter says

Bobpak says

Homosexuality is wrong! Our bodies are not design for this and they need help. We make a big deal about 1% of the population. Silence all homos and get them treated because they are sick and they don't think correctly.

Argue your point rationally please.

I think he was being factitious.

Dan8267 says

Dan8267 invited Pope Benedict XVI to fact-check this discussion.

Invite another expert to fact-check this discussion.

Thanks for inviting an expert! Kind of doubt he will reply, but it's always good to ask experts for their opinion...

If the pope is too busy to address the moral question of homosexuality then he should have one of his high-ranking minions respond. Otherwise, I say they forfeit their position.

Of course, I have no problem engaging in a Lincoln-Douglas debate with the pope. I suspect I'm far more clear thinking than he is and have a much better understanding of morality. He's, of course, welcome to try to disprove this assertion.

leo707 says

Dan8267 says

OK, so at least Fort Wayne has the balls to provide reasons.

Yes, thanks Fort for providing an honest response to the question.

Yes, Fort's reply was honest and rational even though it failed to justify regarding homosexuality as immoral. At least he made an honest attempt and that shows he has more balls than those who have been writing anti-gay posts and have yet to man up and take a swing.

errc says

Do gays really have it that bad in modern society?

Not in comparison to the Middle Ages, but they are still legally treated as second class citizens. That's what the the gay marriage debate is all about. Can the government legally discriminate against gays including in regards to taxation simply because of the popularity of an ugly culture?

It doesn't take a legal scholar to understand that the issue of gay marriage is exactly the same as the issue of interracial marriage and that the case of Loving v Virginia could have easily been about gay marriage without changing a word in the judges' opinions.

People are funny about sex. In one culture a certain sexual practice may be prohibited under the most dire consequences for infraction! In another it may be frowned on but tolerated. In another it may be mandatory.
Culture shapes our beliefs about sex.

That said, sexual orientation isn't so simple as a mere "gay gene." Many gay men have been sexually abused by a man when they were boys. Some revert back straight. Gay women are likely to have tried the hetero thing with a man or two, had a bad experience, and decided they'd get along better with another woman.
Some men who start out hetero turn gay years and years later. I've a friend from childhood who had two children with his wife before switching genders and inviting another man to share their marriage. I guess he's both of their boyfriends now. Is that polygamy or gay marriage or what? Should it be legal as well? Who knows, but it's a real life example of this stuff.

I know the argument: "well my little boy seemed gay when he was young, so it's genetic."
I'm calling bullshit. I have a number of friends I've known for decades who are a little effeminate, maybe on the metrosexual side of hetero. Before they got married, I wondered a little. But they're all happily married. And their wives are happy too because they're more interested in the same kinds of things.

My theory is sexual orientation is a result of either a child's first exposure to sex, or a result of repeated self programming (hetero sex, gay sex, or type of porn watched for example).

Whether its right or wrong seems a lesser argument. From a religious viewpoint, Christians believe that sins can be forgiven. If gay sex is a sin, it's no worse than lying to your boss or stealing office supplies. If we're going to hell for our sins, ain't nobody going to the other place. I think Christians should be kind to gays even if they don't agree with their lifestyles. Many Christians agree with me on this. Domestic partnerships and equal rights are part and parcel of that belief. However they see marriage as a religious thing that belongs to them. Which is why the issue is such a contentious one.

zzyzzx says

I voted FOR gay marriage in Maryland because I want the gays to pay the extra income taxes in the form of the marriage penalty.

Actually the vast majority of gays would pay less in income tax if they were allowed to marry just like the vast majority of heterosexual couples pay less in taxes.

The truth is that the tax policies discriminate against single people.

CaptainShuddup says

errc says

They sure as shit seem to have a remarkably high quality of life.

Yep!

Tell that to the parents of Mathew Shepard. He was brutally beaten to death because some assholes thought that gay men were immoral and subhuman. And Shepard was hardly the first gay man brutally murdered because of the "homosexuality is a sin" argument.

So no, I do think that it is a moral imperative that we discredit the idea that homosexuality is immoral. Enough people have suffered or died as a result of this bullshit. If homosexuality isn't immoral than certainly claiming that homosexuality is immoral is itself immoral because of the harm done by such claims.

FortWayne says

Which is why parents like us would not like children to see homosexuality. We don't want children repeating that behavior.

That is not relevant to the question of "Why the hell is gay sex immoral?".

Even if children started sucking dicks because they saw people sucking dicks, which I don't believe children would do, then the answer is simply not to exposed children to gay porn or gay orgies. I'd argue that you probably should expose your children to heterosexual porn or heterosexual orgies either. It doesn't make gay sex any less moral than straight sex.

Furthermore, the fact that you don't want your children engaging in certain acts does not in any way make those acts immoral. No parent wants his 16-year-old daughter to suck a boy's dick or to have intercourse with him. That doesn't make teenage heterosexual sex immoral.

Many parents don't want their kids listening to a certain type of music -- insert any type that their parent's didn't grow up with for any generation -- but that doesn't make listening to certain music immoral.

Most parents don't want their kids smoking cigarettes or drinking alcohol, and there are practical reasons for this. Nonetheless, smoking and drinking aren't immoral.

The fact is that all parents are hypocrites. Hell, one could argue that in order to be a decent parent you have to be a complete hypocrite and make sure your kids don't do the exact same thing that you did when you were their age. Yes, I'm talking to all the Baby Boomers, here.

Nevertheless, the conflict between parents and their children is no justification for stating that there is anything immoral or subversive about homosexuality.

I think that many parents don't want their own kids to turn out gay, but that doesn't make being gay or having gay sex immoral. Many parents don't want their own kids to marry someone of a different race or religion, but that doesn't make either of those things immoral.

If anything, it is selfish and immoral to use any kind of force to make your kid marry a member of the opposite sex and give you grandchildren. Yes, that may be what you want from your kid's life, but it is not moral to force your will onto the kid. If your teenage son likes sucking dick, then it is immoral -- hell, it's child abuse -- to try to cleanse him of gayness.

Bap33 says

yea .. so in most criminal activity and all perverted activity .. and all other activity and mental conditons. Being born an axe murderer does not have axe murder reduced to "a choice".

You are making a Straw Man argument. I did not make the statement that all natural behavior is moral. In fact on many threads I have shown this not to be true.

The context of the phrase you quoted was that since sexual orientation is biological, you can't flip it by watching a cartoon.

Furthermore, your Straw Man argument does not address the question, "Why the hell is gay sex immoral?". The burden of proof is on you. There are an infinite number of things we can do, most of them have nothing to do with morality. For example, I could drop 1 gram stone. That's not immoral. Second example, I could drop a 2 gram stone. That's not immoral. I have an infinite number of other examples just dealing with stones. It's not practical to assume everything is immoral until proven otherwise. Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Bap33 says

By the way, in your above post you mixed up valor with moral.

You are making a red herring argument. My counter-argument that "normality", whatever that means, does not imply morality perfectly answered Fort Wayne's concern.

If you want to state why homosexual sex is immoral, then just do so. If you can't think up any reason why it's immoral, then you should be questioning why you believe that in the first place. It should not be hard to show why something so terrible is wrong. If it is hard then your assumption is wrong. Why the hell is gay sex immoral? This isn't a trick question. It shouldn't stump you if you are correct.

FortWayne says

I grew up in an older society, it seems like we never had seen a big deal about gays. Back in the days media wasn't exploding with gay rights activism, and parading gays. A child could grow normally without being exposed to this harm. Today it is a lot harder for parents.

Gay rights is a big issue in the media precisely because of the anti-gay bigotry and the institutionalize discrimination against gays. If gays had equal rights and we're harmed by anti-gay bigotry, you'd see as much coverage of gay issues as you do of abolitionist issues.

You say, "A child could grow normally without being exposed to this harm.". Exactly what harm is befalling a child who sees a marriage equality protest or a gay pride parade? Just because as a parent you are uncomfortable discussing a topic with your children does not mean that it is harmful to discuss that topic with your child. In fact, I would argue the exact opposite.

It is good parenting to discuss difficult topics with your child including sex, racism, slavery, torture, death, and so on. By avoiding these issues you are not preventing your children from having to deal with these realities. However, by discussing these issues you can provide some wisdom and understanding that will make your children deal with these issues better both as children and, more importantly, as adult citizens. It is precisely the responsibility of parents to teach their children the difficult lessons in life, to attempt to answer the difficult questions, and to ensure that their children understands the failings of the society they live in so that those children may have the ability to correct those failings when they become adults.

Parents should be telling their kids that America enslaved people for over a hundred years, that the south lynched blacks for another hundred, that recently evil people in our government tortured innocent people to death, and that sometimes your government does things that you only think other governments do. It would make the children better citizens and better leaders as adults.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ateh7hnEnik

Bap33 says

FortWayne says

That is my argument, disorders should be treated not celebrated.

AMEN!!!

A mental disorder cannot be immoral, by definition. Only the biggest bastard in the world would say that a child with Down Syndrome is being immoral. Does any asshole here want to claim that this girl is immoral for having Down Syndrome?

Ok then. If you even think that homosexuality is some kind of disorder, then it cannot be immoral.

Of course, then it is your burden to prove that homosexuality is a disorder.
The American Board of Medical Specialties does not classify homosexuality as a disorder.
The American Board of Family Medicine does not classify homosexuality as a disorder.
The Department of Health and Human Services does not classify homosexuality as a disorder.
The World Health Organization does not classify homosexuality as a disorder.
The American Medical Association does not classify homosexuality as a disorder.
The American College of Physicians does not classify homosexuality as a disorder.
The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons does not classify homosexuality as a disorder.

None of these reputable organizations or countless others consider homosexuality to be at all a disorder. Nor does any of these organization prescribe any medical treatment for homosexuality. If you are going to make a claim that the entire medical world is wrong and you know more about medical disorders than they do, then you better have some damn good evidence to back up your claim.

Of course, there was a time when interracial lust was called a mental disorder, when the female orgasm was called hysteria, and when it was considered a "scientific fact" that the white man was mentally superior to the black or yellow man. Do you really want to join this camp by asserting that homosexuals are mentally deficient without having some objective evidence to back up that claim?

Dan8267 invited World Health Organization to fact-check this discussion.

Invite another expert to fact-check this discussion.