patrick.net

Forcing you to buy a house? Does she make you carry her purse too?

lostand confused says

Forcing you to buy a house? Does she make you carry her purse too?

Doubled housing costs should usually be less expensive than alimony which is often expected to cover all of a former spouse's expenses maintaining the same life style.

Fights over money are a pretty big cause for divorce. Clearly, you have serious concerns about this purchase. Buying a house is a big deal in this market. Lots and lots of risk. No one knows what policies will rule the day several years down the road. These policies will mean the difference between you making money, losing money, breaking even... or just plain wishing you were dead. I don't want this to sound inflammatory, because I honestly don't mean it that way. It's difficult to say the next part without sounding snarky. My apologies, in advance. Here goes...

I think that you really want to buy the house for all kinds of non-financial reasons. However, you recognize the risk of possible financial ruin given the craziness of the market these days. If you allow your wife to think that she's the driving force behind this decision then you can be blameless if the market takes a turn for the worse. However, if the market improves then you can jump on the "I'm a financial wizard" bandwaggon alongside your wife.

That said... You really shouldn't make this purchase unless you are willing to share the blame for this decision if things go sideways on you. Why? Because right now you have a choice. You don't have to buy the house. If you aren't comfortable with the risk then you don't have to buy the house.

You and your wife will have lots of financial decisions you have to make together. IMHO, you both need to be on the same page with each and every major financial decision. You both need to agree that you made the decision together, you both must understand the risk, and you both need to be willing to accept the blame equally if things don't go as planned. Nothing good will come from the alternative. Just years of martyrdom and resentment.

Have you done out the math in a clear and concise manor that shows the cost break-down? Sure, renting is "throwing money away" but so is paying mortgage interest, property tax, house insurance and general maintenance. Your utility bills will also be a little higher in a larger property.

If you have MS Excel, or even just Google Docs, get it calculated out in a spreadsheet. See how much money it will actually cost per month in your current situation versus if you bought a given house. Maybe you are throwing more money away per month one way or the other, I don't know, but YOU should. It might be that you are losing the same amount on interest/tax/insurance as rent. I am not 100% on the "paying principal = saving cash" train since a house is a very illiquid asset, but at least it isn't completely pissing money away like renting or paying interest.

Just use a format like this:

Monthly "Cash Throw Away" from Renting:
- Rent
- Utilities

Monthly "Cash Throw Away" from Buying
- Mortgage Interest
- Annual property tax / 12
- Annual house insurance / 12
- HOA dues (if applicable)

Keep in mind that you will be throwing away a LOT more money in the first 10 years or so since mortgages are front-loaded with interest. It gets "better" further in as you start taking bigger bites out of the principal. Also remember that rents have some probability of increasing.

My wife still very much "wants her own house" too, and seemed largely disinterested in facts or cost analyses of owning at one point (and she's a degreed mechanical engineer for god' sake!). I made up a very simple cost breakdown that showed that the "throw away costs" of a house that we would want in this area are 1.9x our renting "throw away costs" at month 1, average 1.4x for the first 10 years and were still 1.1x at the end of 30 years...assuming our current rent never increases. If rents go up 4% annually, renting involves pissing more money away faster than a house in about 7 years in our case. Anyway, she is a lot less gung-ho about the house thing now. Her father is putting huge pressure on us though, and he probably can't be convinced to ease-up since he lives & works in Hong Kong where real estate is in a very different situation than it is the US. It also has a very different cultural significance.

There are many unknowns too, but this covers most of the big-ticket items. I wouldn't count on the mortgage interest deduction saving tons of money either since a $300k house probably doesn't get you much of a deduction, and it might go away anyway.

Honestly, you two need to have a talk about this. Does she know how you feel about the situation? If not, you should inform her in a polite, respectful way. If she cannot handle your feelings, then that is a problem. There is obviously some resentment on your side too, which is not good. I'd say that it is probably your fault for feeling that way by not trying to communicate effectively. You can't NOT communicate because you are afraid of her. That's just a recipe for divorce. Maybe sitting down & talking with her is a recipe for it too, but at least you tried. It is 100% reasonable to expect some level of participation on her part in maintaining the household. If you want an engaged partner and she is not interested in that, then you may have married the wrong person.

Talk with her. If that fails, seek counseling. Put in 110% to make things right. It is not easy, or fun, but you both might come out of it much happier. If not, at least you tried.

KgK one says

My wife is forcing me to buy a house, becoming another slave

The book of Exodus has a solution to this problem. Just sell your wife into slavery. Two problems solved at once.

Call it Crazy says

Good points... also don't forget to factor in to your total costs in buying is all your closing costs, inspections, title work, attorney, mortgage app fees, points, etc..

Also, if your wife likes to start projects, plan on the costs for all upgrades, new appliances, fixtures, cabinets, tile, etc. which would normally be paid for by a landlord... These costs can really add up in the first few years of ownership!!

When you tally it all up, you just might see how much "cheaper" renting can be...

I'd just amortize it into the mortgage. Add 6% to the price of the house & factor that into the mortgage cost. That should take care of the various closing costs, furnishing, etc.

Also, if putting down less than 20% you will pay mortgage insurance. That's another monthly cost.

Renting may be "saving"money now, but given the way things are going, renting might be as- or more-costly in less than a decade. It is truly anyone's guess since rentals are "THE" thing for investors and a lot of rental inventory will be coming online in the next few years, but at the same time super low housing inventories are forcing a ton of people to rent since there isn't much to buy. I'd just be conservative and assume 3-4% rent increases annually.

swebb says

Life isn't lived on paper. The house may not be a good financial investment but neither is a $50 bottle of wine, a new car or a vacation.

Perhaps but a $50 bottle of wine or even a new car is chump change compared to a house. If the wine sucks you're out $50 and a few minutes of your life. If the car sucks at least there's a warranty. If the house sucks you're out 6% or more plus weeks if not months of your life.

Call it Crazy says

New Renter says

If the house sucks you're out 6% or more plus weeks if not months of your life.

And that's if you can resell it for MORE than you paid for it...

My comment assumed a short residency with no change in value either way. CIC does bring up another important factor - is the area likely to appreciate or remain stagnant?

KgK one says

Home is nice, we found it after looking for 2 years. 4 B2.5bath .5 acre in PA

It does look like a nice place... you can grow a lot of yams on 1/2 acre.

Fuck dude, THAT house for $300k? I hate California sometimes. Something like that would be $2M here, and I am not joking.

...and 5 acres of land?

Call it Crazy says

If you're going to go that route and hire a house cleaner, you need to go "all in". Forget about the 50 yr. old.... You need to go this route. Might make your wife change her mind and step in and help....

Problem with "sexy" costumes is that they look like costumes. They leave no room for imagination and hence they are not sexy at all.

Try a real French maid uniform.

Call it Crazy says

How about just a real French maid?? Forget the costume..

I prefer to have a British maid but in French maid uniform. :-)

Not to take her side but I can see both sides of this, having lived in a cramped two bedroom myself.

If you're paying 2x as much as renting, here's my thought process.

1) can you afford it?
2) can you still afford it if one of you were to have a sudden decrease in your income?
3) are you getting 2x as much living space?
4) What would the house reasonably rent for given the current market in your area? How does that compare with what your PITI will be?
5) List out the pros and cons of buying it.
6) If you were stuck there a decade or longer, would you still like it.

If you answer yes to 1, 2 and 3, 4 is about even and 5 shows more pros than cons, then it just might be worth it, so long as you can say yes to 6. In this market, I'd plan on staying in it long term -don't think about it as an investment that you can flip and/or rent out in only a few years time. IMHO, the market isn't coming back that fast.

And yes, based on the photo it has some curb appeal.

Good luck.

OCall it Crazy says

bmwman91 says

Fuck dude, THAT house for $300k? I hate California sometimes. Something like that would be $2M here, and I am not joking.

That house would be about $375K in my area of NJ, and you know how screwed up NJ is!!! (although, taxes would be like $8K here..)

Property taxes here run 1.25% or so. That makes the annual tax on a $2M property $25k.

Suddenly that $8k is looking pretty good isn't it? Oh but its deductible....that makes it A OK.

E-man says

bmwman91 says

Fuck dude, THAT house for $300k? I hate California sometimes. Something like that would be $2M here, and I am not joking.

You don't hate CA. You hate the Bay Area. You can get something similar to that for a pretty cheap price in Central Valley, Inland Empire, or certain part of Monterey County.

True. Check out Rancho Murietta up by Sacramento. Many houses as nice as the one shown by the OP in a similar price range. Go up into the foothills and they get even better. Hell of a commute to the bay area though but if you own the house outright and keep expenses down you may be able to find a lower paid job locally that would pay the bills.

Sorry, my bad. The OP said $300k, not $375k.

bmwman91 says

Fuck dude, THAT house for $300k? I hate California sometimes. Something like that would be $2M here, and I am not joking.

It does make you wonder why we cling onto this area dosen't it?

Call it Crazy says

Peter P says

Try a real French maid uniform.

How about just a real French maid?? Forget the costume..

Hairy legs, armpits and B.O.

Peter P says

Call it Crazy says

How about just a real French maid?? Forget the costume..

I prefer to have a British maid but in French maid uniform. :-)

Bad teeth.

Perhaps a British maid in French maid uniform with gold teeth.

Peter P says

I prefer to have a British maid but in French maid uniform. :-)

Well OK but only if she keeps quiet.
Peter P says

Perhaps a British maid in French maid uniform with gold teeth.

Yellow perhaps?

Call it Crazy says

CaptainShuddup says

...and 5 acres of land?

.5 acres as in 1/2....

Oh well that's still a (classic)double lot, or 20,000 sq ft lot.
Though lots have gotten smaller and tinier over the years.
Even my brother that lives in Boulder Colorado told me he could reach out of his side window and shake his neighbors hand doing the same.
This is Colorado big open spaces and even the lots there have gotten tiny.

Tell your wife that if she insists on you buying that house then she has already established what the relationship is based on. Let her know that for about a quarter of the lifetime costs of that house you could "rent" many girlfriends who don't want a house.

I swear men come in two flavors when it comes to dealing with women,

1) jerkoffs who talk women into giving it up promising a proper long term relationship, only to dump her in an adulthood fearing panic the second she mentions anything resembling 'life plans'

2) hen pecked zombies who do everything, sell his souls, future children's souls; to keep their evil witch of a women appeased.

If you have married her, support her enough to afford a 2 bedroom home and on top of it she has proven a crappy housekeeper and still she wants more, you have done more than enough. Divorce her.

You want my advice on marriage?
Don't ask for marriage advice, on a forum based out of Fransisco with a large number of Gay subscribers.

Try the Key west conch republic forum instead.

I think we need an update for bmwman's accounting standard. Tongue is in cheek here. Bad humor is based on thread contents.

Monthly "Cash Throw Away" from Renting:
- Rent
- Utilities
- Hooker payments & bar tabs (to replace your wife's services, b/c she has left you for a house owner)

Monthly "Cash Throw Away" from Buying
- Mortgage Interest
- Annual property tax / 12
- Annual house insurance / 12
- HOA dues (if applicable)
- Monthly outlays to keep the wife happy (b/c you gave her a house, now she will want crap to fill it up & lots of primping)

turtledove says

You and your wife will have lots of financial decisions you have to make together.

He/she who earns (most of) the money will make the financial decisions, the SO can give input, but they should never be on the same level unless they both provide the same amount of money to the purchase. Once you have worked for a long enough time to pay bills and make bigger purchases, your decision-making process on spending a large chunk of money changes dramatically.

bmwman91 says

Fuck dude, THAT house for $300k? I hate California sometimes. Something like that would be $2M here, and I am not joking.

That's just how big cities are. Move into a small town in a desert and you'll be paying 20k to 40k for exact same property.

FortWayne says

bmwman91 says

Fuck dude, THAT house for $300k? I hate California sometimes. Something like that would be $2M here, and I am not joking.

That's just how big cities are. Move into a small town in a desert and you'll be paying 20k to 40k for exact same property.

Ala Phoenix or Chunderville

New Renter says

E-man says

bmwman91 says

Fuck dude, THAT house for $300k? I hate California sometimes. Something like that would be $2M here, and I am not joking.

You don't hate CA. You hate the Bay Area. You can get something similar to that for a pretty cheap price in Central Valley, Inland Empire, or certain part of Monterey County.

True. Check out Rancho Murietta up by Sacramento. Many houses as nice as the one shown by the OP in a similar price range. Go up into the foothills and they get even better. Hell of a commute to the bay area though but if you own the house outright and keep expenses down you may be able to find a lower paid job locally that would pay the bills.

Sorry, my bad. The OP said $300k, not $375k.

BTW that house in MY South SJ neighborhood as a regular sale would run $600k-700k on 1/8 acre.

In most "good"bay area neighborhoods such a house would run $1M.

That $2M is for the fortress

New Renter,
Yeah, I should have qualified that by adding, "that house, with less than a 40 minute commute to the tech job centers."

mell,
Oh boy...that's asking for trouble. Here's how I envision it going since this conversation has played itself out in my head.

H: "I respect your input and we can probably find a middle ground here. The thing is that I think it is a bad idea right now, and I do earn 2x as much money so I think I do get some say in this."

W: "So what? Why are you so selfish, I am your wife and you should try to take care of me as best you can."

H: "I am trying to take good care of you. In the long term, I think that we will regret this, as fun as it would be right now. I am trying to think of what is best for both of us right now."

W: "Well, fine. But it is not fair for you to say you get more influence just because you make a lot more than me. It's not my fault that our income is the way it is."

(aaaaand here's where I would get a ticket to the couch for the night)

H: "Hold on a sec. Weren't you JUST complaining about entitled welfare bums and the government giving our hard earned money to folks that make less money than us? It sounds like you are asking for the same thing."

W: *nuclear explosion*

(in real life, if you let the balance of power exactly mirror the income distribution...well, you probably shouldn't be married)

I think that a lot of these difficulties are pretty common in many relationships. Someone on a different forum summarized what I think that the core issue is, albeit crudely. "Women want to be treated like ladies and act like men." Fair enough, I think. If someone wants a free meal ticket, that's fine, but it isn't exactly free in reality. "Ladies" were generally home-maker women (and there is NOTHING wrong with that) that were financially dependent on men, and men were generally supposed to treat them as the gentler, fairer sex, and provide for them. Well, lots of women still want men to fully provide for them and treat them like ladies, while also being self-sufficient and independent to pursue their own ambitions. Sorry, those two don't exactly mix, at least in a way that is "fair" to men. Today though, you can't even say the phrase "fair to men" without being labeled a sexist by the PC police. Men are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination either, but this thread doesn't seem to be about that.

New Renter says

bmwman91 says

Fuck dude, THAT house for $300k? I hate California sometimes. Something like that would be $2M here, and I am not joking.

It does make you wonder why we cling onto this area dosen't it?

Not really.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/hPIxrzmatq0

Bahahahaha that commercial is a riot.

mell says

He/she who earns (most of) the money will make the financial decisions, the SO can give input, but they should never be on the same level unless they both provide the same amount of money to the purchase.

Hey, it works great for my father-in-law (who is also quite adept at dodging wine glasses thrown at his head, pretending he's deaf and usually inciting WWIII around the house whenever he loudly moans about having to pay for something).

Problem is, his wife generally keeps his life & house in order (including the kids). Hard to put a price on that.

CMY says

mell says

He/she who earns (most of) the money will make the financial decisions, the SO can give input, but they should never be on the same level unless they both provide the same amount of money to the purchase.

Hey, it works great for my father-in-law (who is also quite adept at dodging wine glasses thrown at his head, pretending he's deaf and usually inciting WWIII around the house whenever he loudly moans about having to pay for something).

Problem is, his wife generally keeps his life & house in order (including the kids). Hard to put a price on that.

Wow, he must be a 'nice' guy then. That wouldn't fly in my book, I'd hire a maid/nanny as needed instead.

Compromise has been reached. We will share responsibilities, stuff i don't like will be done by her or we hire someone, yes we can afford it. For cleanliness portion, I will have my private room along with shared Master which will stay in clean environment and she will have basement to fill with junk. Basement will lots of junk will be her roaming area.

I have been searching home for almost 5 yrs and this one we both liked, so have to compromise. House is 3X space including basement than 900 sq ft apt. with 2 kids we could use the space. It is not a financial decision, I would have waited till interest rates were 8% and house prices were 1/2 given I have more than enough for Downpayment.

House is great was build by contractor for himself but then got divorced , single 4bd 2.5 bath 1/2 acre , with little stream in the back. Compare to NJ or CA or NY its amazing but keep in mind that people's salaries are low in PA. Standard of living will be same or slightly better.

Glad to hear that you got things worked out.

Our economy is so fucked, I don't think that we'll see 8% interest rates again in out lifetime, at least as long as the current US dollar is used as our currency.

If you can comfortably afford it all, then you are good, really. At this point, I don't think that we will be seeing any other "deep discounts" on real estate thanks to heavy-handed central planning measures. Now's as good (or bad if you prefer) of a time as any in the next 5+ years to buy.

KgK one says

House is great was build by contractor for himself but then got divorced

I lived in a house built by a contractor for himself and his wife. He died in the house too. It was not a great house--not very well built. Lots of stupid decisions about roofing, siding and drainage. But it had million dollar, all bridge and bay views. And some cool features.

It was wired for radio inside and out. When we first moved in, I turned one of the dials on the control panel and didn't hear anything, so I just left it. In the morning, I went outside to discover my neighbors had been treated to loud country music all night long!

We even found some secret hiding places for who knows what. We agreed he probably hid coke in the house because we found other artifacts which indicated he and his wife were 70's party royalty. She left a closet full of liquor (some from private labels) and commemorative alcohol glasses from various political happenings.

Even though it leaked and mushrooms grew in the closets, I miss that place.

rufita11 says

I lived in a house built by a contractor for himself and his wife

We also live in a house a contractor built for himself. He was a cabinat maker by trade, so there is an 800sq ft shop, completely wired. He also has the place wired for sound.

I have a huge office, but the kitchen is a little small with a ton of cabinets. There are tons of built ins.

I think KgK one did due diligence, and that is a very good thing.