patrick.net

As far as the inanimate objects (guns, cars) are concerned, murders are really the same as accidents. The differences are only in the mind states of those responsible.

Call it Crazy says

There were 32,367 motor vehicle deaths last year. That is approx. 89 PER DAY!!!

Where is your outrage over cars, or are these deaths not as important because they weren't caused by a gun?

Yours is a pointless argument. People do not usually step into a car with the intention of killing someone. How many deaths were caused by someone trying to deliberately kill another person with their vehicle?

Peter P says

As far as the inanimate objects (guns, cars) are concerned, murders are really the same as accidents. The differences are only in the mind states of those responsible.

They are very different and that is reflected in law.

Bigsby says

Yours is a pointless argument. People do not usually step into a car with the intention of killing someone. How many deaths were caused by someone trying to deliberately kill another person with their vehicle?

Intention is in the mind only. So it concerns only people.

The ONLY thing that separates accidents and murders (or various degrees of negligence) is the state of mind.

Bigsby says

They are very different and that is reflected in law.

Yes. And such law involves mens rea. There are gun accidents and car murders too. And the law deals with them as appropriate.

Peter P says

Bigsby says

Yours is a pointless argument. People do not usually step into a car with the intention of killing someone. How many deaths were caused by someone trying to deliberately kill another person with their vehicle?

Intention is in the mind only. So it concerns only people.

If that intention is made real by the ease with which a person can access weapons such as assault rifles, then that is a very real issue of appropriateness of ownership no matter how much you want to make it about people rather than the guns.

Call it Crazy says

Well, at least you're finally admitting that a PERSON was responsible for the killing and NOT the "object" or "tool".

We're making progress....

Oh, BTW, many people have gotten into a vehicle with the intention to kill with it.

And many more have picked up a gun... What is your point? Of course a person is responsible for pulling the trigger, but society is responsible for making it easy for that person to have the gun in the first place. Why should people, seemingly with few restrictions in many states, be free to purchase the kind of weapons that have no function in a normal civilized society? These aren't toys, but your country seems to have stricter rules about alcohol consumption than gun ownership. It's bloody stupid.

Peter P says

Bigsby says

They are very different and that is reflected in law.

Yes. And such law involves mens rea. There are gun accidents and car murders too. And the law deals with them as appropriate.

So then he should compare like with like rather than going "oh look at all these deaths caused by cars."

Call it Crazy says

Bigsby says

If that intention is made real by the ease with which a person can access weapons such as assault rifles,

What is you actual description of an assault rifle?

It is a convenient label. Then the label can be re-defined to include anything except muzzle-loaders.

Call it Crazy says

Bigsby says

If that intention is made real by the ease with which a person can access weapons such as assault rifles,

What is you actual description of an assault rifle?

I'm not interested in your nitpicking definitions of weapons. The broader issues are what matters.

WTF? This is normal human behavior, we are natural born killers. We kill everything, we have war, that kills children, just take a look around man. Not all that many years ago we indiscriminately bombed the living hell out of Iraq, no we were not aiming at schools but plenty of kids died, but so what, killing is killing, do you see it slowing down or stopping?, I don't. We have military, we train people to kill other people, here this is your career, this is what your best at, nervous about it?, don't worry we got PTSD medications for that, yeah they might make you go nuts to.. Get over it already. You live in a world of monsters that we created, just turn on the TV, it makes for great drama, newsbites, sells great, and the sorry truth is people love it.

Call it Crazy says

Bigsby says

I'm not interested in your nitpicking definitions of weapons. The broader issues are what matters.

What I wanted to see if you are just spouting the MSM talking points or if you were actually educated on firearms.

I'm not 'educated' on firearms, but what exactly has that got to with the appropriacy of owning say an AR15?

Call it Crazy says

That's only your opinion that they have "no function"... If you did some research on self defense, you would see that data proves otherwise.

Anybody can produce a talking point about this or that example of self-defence. So what? We are talking about the wider impact on society as a whole rather than individual examples. I'm not particularly anti-gun ownership despite being a Brit, but I don't see much reason for households to be allowed to own say semi-automatic rifles with what seem to be few meaningful safe guards in many states.

Bigsby says

but I don't see much reason for households to be allowed to own say semi-automatic rifles

Perhaps they want less recoil compared to a bolt-action rifle.

Call it Crazy says

Bigsby says

I'm not 'educated' on firearms, but what exactly has that got to with the appropriacy of owning say an AR15?

OK, question, is it appropriate to own a 22 rifle?

I would suggest it entirely depends on what they intend to do with it.
Just as a general point, if people are using a weapon for target practice or hunting, why would they need a semi-automatic weapon?

Bigsby says

Just as a general point, if people are using a weapon for target practice or hunting, why would they need a semi-automatic weapon?

If people just want to go grocery shopping, why do they need a Hummer?

Peter P says

Bigsby says

Just as a general point, if people are using a weapon for target practice or hunting, why would they need a semi-automatic weapon?

If people just want to go grocery shopping, why do they need a Hummer?

Give me strength.

Call it Crazy says

That's why I said you need to look at actual data. The facts are, that firearms have PREVENT many more crimes than have been committed. The problem is, we only hear about the committed ones from the MSM. We need to separate emotional responses and knee-jerk reactions from these instances and look at the facts.

Well show me the facts. Firearms encompass a very wide range, and I presume rather a lot of your examples don't relate to semi-automatic rifles.

Call it Crazy says

Bigsby says

Just as a general point, if people are using a weapon for target practice or hunting, why would they need a semi-automatic weapon?

In target practice, if you're looking to hone your skills, you need to be able to shoot in repetition without changing position. Stopping to reload single shells breaks your rhythm.

In hunting, you don't always kill your game on a single shot, so you need to be able to re-fire quickly to keep the game from escaping wounded.

Life is full of compromises. There are a vast number of restrictions on people's individual liberties that most people don't give a second thought to because they lead to the betterment of society as a whole.

Call it Crazy says

So, only 2/3rds of murders are caused by firearms... which means some other "weapon" was used for the other 1/3.

....."Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year."

....."A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]

Your 'only 2/3rds' comment is rather striking.
And I presume that most of the figures you mention below that relate to handguns...

How many murders will give up murdering if they have no guns?

If someone is premeditated and determined, he will follow through.

We have an angry-people problem.

Peter P says

How many murders will give up murdering if they have no guns?

I didn't notice a demand for all guns to be given up.

Bigsby says

Peter P says

How many murders will give up murdering if they have no guns?

I didn't notice a demand for all guns to be given up.

But criminals will still have all those weapons out there.

Call it Crazy says

That's been my point all along. You, like many others, are strictly focused on those "evil guns" and nothing else. The facts are, just like the stats I posted, that other "tools" can be used to kill people. Except, no one wants to use critical thinking skills and logic to accept that point.

The other 1/3 above could be anything... a knife, a axe, a baseball bat, a chain saw, a steel pipe, a rock or anything. Maybe even a car...

The only common denominator in all the murders? They had to be caused by a PERSON....

No, I'm not, but quite obviously guns are the single greatest weapon of choice for murders in the US. In the UK, I believe it is knives, but the number of murders in the UK is vastly lower than in the US. Ease of gun ownership is one of a multitude of issues. But it is one. You, however, seem to be strictly focused on denying the part that rampant gun ownership plays in the number of murders. It does have a role. It's not the be-all and end-all, but why are you so hell bent on denying that it plays any part?

Peter P says

Bigsby says

Peter P says

How many murders will give up murdering if they have no guns?

I didn't notice a demand for all guns to be given up.

But criminals will still have all those weapons out there.

You don't say.

Call it Crazy says

Both of these rifles operate on the same principle and the same type of firing mechanism. The difference being, for the uneducated, the 22 is portrayed as a nice little backyard target rifle, where the MSM makes out the AR15 as some scary military "killing machine" that should be banned.

Fear, emotion and false perceptions doesn't make for good law making....

I've already made my point on both of those weapons and that wasn't based on 'fear, emotion, and false perceptions.' I see little place in society for the need for (frequently) loosely regulated ownership of (multiple) semi-automatic rifles. It does not serve the greater good of society. That is my opinion. It obviously differs from yours.

Since the United States legalized abortion in 1973 in Roe v. Wade, approximately 40 million abortions have been conducted in this country.

That is 40 million of these little kids, just like the ones that got shot, only 5 years younger, and much more defenseless.

1/1/1973 to 1/1/2013 is 40 years, that is 1 million per year. and that is about 2,740 dead babies every day.

The advertized numbers are higher, like 3,700 per day, but I'll stick with the lower number to avoid silly arguements.

Now, will all of those calling for the removal of weapons from the hands of law-following Americans please explain why? If you say it is to save lives, you are a liar. If you were wanting to save innocent life you would end abortion. Murderers will use whatever it takes to do the job. Stop pretending that murdering freaks are all too lazy to try other options. After all, every day there are thousands of babies murdered with sharp medical tools and a vaccuum. Abortatoriums dont use guns, and they murder thousands more than gun violence. It is time for the liberal left to stop talking about lives. They want to have equal chances for all innocent folks to be victims, and not have to know that some bible clinger was able to protect his family, wife, treasure, neighbor, teacher, or self from being a victim. Note their view of Zimmerman, and compair that to how they reacted to Spike Lee. Spike Lee is guilty of conspiracy to commet murder on the same level as Charles Manson, but nobody says anything. How odd. Zimmerman's story has been proven, but all of the good people are afraid of the reactions from the bad people, so he must be treated like a criminal. Thanks to libtards.

The Mayans where right.

Believing a new, special law (that only limits the good guys from having weapons) will make any difference to the bad guys and how they rape, murder, and rob innocent people, is a sign of mental illness, and lots of dope smoking must take place to suffer that much from the cancer of liberalism.

Call it Crazy says

Where did I ever say it doesn't play any part?? I just showed you the data above. Sure, it's easier to kill someone with a gun then a baseball bat, but guns aren't the only cause of murders. They just make for a better "emotional" story because of the fear, ignorance and lack of gun education by so many people.

I also proved to you above that "rampant" gun ownership has proven to be more effective in stopping crimes versus causing crimes.

What don't you understand in those facts??

Er, post after post you've repeated the mantra of 'it's the person,' or should I say 'it's the PERSON.' That's what you've said in this thread over and over.

And as I replied before, if gun ownership wasn't rampant, then crime would be prevented in other ways just as it is in other countries. And even ignoring that point, your figures don't state what was used to prevent crime so even that argument is moot when addressing the issue of the appropriateness of ownership of certain types of weapons.

Bap33 says

Since the United States legalized abortion in 1973 in Roe v. Wade, approximately 40 million abortions have been conducted in this country.

That is 40 million of these little kids, just like the ones that got shot, only 5 years younger, and much more defenseless.

Fetuses aren't kids, so what was your point again?

Call it Crazy says

Wow, after everything I posted, I feel like I'm going round and round in circles, like a dog chasing it's tail.....

I'll just leave it at that, you just don't get it..... your mind is made up, facts and data don't matter, people behind the weapons don't matter, semi-auto rifles should be banned, period...

OK, I'm done trying to explain to you...

Er, I have entirely the same feeling towards what you have been posting. You see what you want to see in your 'facts and data' and you completely ignore any other take on that information that doesn't dovetail with your own preconceptions. And please point to where I said that the people behind the guns don't matter.

Bigsby says

Fetuses aren't kids, so what was your point again?

If they are human fetuses, they are human kids. Kids is a lazy slang term, and fetus is a dead lingo term, and that makes for a bad conversation. Lets just call all human offspring, human offspring. In the belly, on the floor, in the crib, on a bike, in school, at the malt shop, they are all just human offspring. That work better for you?

But, like I said, the liberal left focus is not human life, it is making sure everyone can be a victim.

I heard many proposals over the weekend, however I would say that arming the teachers is not a good idea. There are some teachers out there that are not the most stable personalities. They will shoot students for not turning in homework assignments or not completing lab writeups up to their satisfaction. I am sure we all ran into some eccentric ones in school. It would be a timebomb and a disaster waiting to happen if those guys were armed. Not to mention that the climate of fear that's not conducive to learning that would result in the classroom.

Call it Crazy says

Wow, after everything I posted, I feel like I'm going round and round in circles, like a dog chasing it's tail.....

That's the way I imagine you too.

Call it Crazy says

rooemoore says

That's the way I imagine you too.

I have a easy solution for you!! Don't read my posts!!

Wing-nuts make me laugh.

Call it Crazy says

What if these particular teachers were armed?

Conn. law apparently already allowed concealed carry permit holders to bring on school property, so in theory one of those teachers COULD have been armed, but they weren't. This case doesn't seem a legal issue so much as a mental health issue to me.

Do you mean ENCOURAGE them to be armed? Like a subsidy for those that act as armed guards? This would go against the dominant paradigm that teachers should be minimum wage disposable people, with no pensions and no support.

I am a former IPSC competitor and I feel queasy about the idea. I don't really want a teacher whose focus is TEACHING to have loaded on their plate additional job as an armed guard and having to be paranoid every second about where their sidearm is and not having an accident or having it seized from them.

Pre-Reagan we locked up people in loony bins right and left. Maybe we were too indiscrimant back then, but the pendulum has swung too far and now we don't institutionalize people UNTIL they have murdered a bunch of people.

Vicente says

I am a former IPSC competitor and I feel queasy about the idea. I don't really want a teacher whose focus is TEACHING to have loaded on their plate additional job as an armed guard and having to be paranoid every second about where their sidearm is and not having an accident or having it seized from them.

I am a gun owner, and in the past have had a concealed carry permit and I don't think (mandatory)armed teachers is a good idea either.

A school full of armed teachers is not going to dissuade an attack from a mentally ill person bent on mayhem and murder followed by their own death.

leo707 says

A school full of armed teachers is not going to dissuade an attack from a mentally ill person bent on mayhem and murder followed by their own death.

No, but it would increase gun sales!

FortWayne says

Way more people die in car accidents, ban cars too. And if you own an SUV stronger rules should apply.

Way more people die in car accidents than terrorist attacks. So let's start by banning the TSA and the Department of Homeland Security. These are organizations that material harm the U.S. population and provide no real safety.

Call it Crazy says

Why didn't these attackers go after a police station, gun show or shooting range??

Gosh, wouldn't it be great if there we MORE gun shows and MORE shooting ranges? Certainly, MORE guns is the answer.

Of course, your logic for more guns will be disputed by the families of the two cops who got killed today in Kansas.

Back to chasing your tail!