patrick.net

Call it Crazy says

I don't think I'll be volunteering for that clinical trial any time soon

You'd be surprised how many drugs and other products are derived from urine and other waste. Geishas cover their faces in guano, and Japanese men seem to find it very attractive. It's a wild world.

Anyway as the article noted, a clinical trial would probably involve a capsule, no taste. Current practice is to mix with water and use a tube to deliver directly to the intestine.

Haven't they heard of probiotics? Or is it they like the idea of a more expensive shitty procedure?

Actually lack of probiotics is the cause of some of the most expensive medical cases ever.

I know of one case that went from just Crohn's disease to a major yeast infection - person was put on IV drip meds for candidiasis and ended up with IV feeding. I remember that the cost of the IV feeding (which had to be specially prepared by the pharmacist) cost so much that you could hire a couple pharmacists full time just for yourself. (It was over $20,000 per month and that was more than 20 years ago).

Never once did I ever see anything in a report or on a bill about restoring the gut flora.

And there is always someone on a transplant list because of too much antibiotics. Usually they give antibiotics until they discover fungal balls in the urine or something like - and the next thing is the anti fungal medicine (which can kill you) and then comes liver or kidney failure.

Zlxr says

Haven't they heard of probiotics?

Elephants, dogs, and monkeys all had to evolve before retailers began selling probiotics, so they seek out natural sources. Probiotics are beginning to get some clinical research, including proven benefits:

http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update0905c.shtml

Probiotics are cheap so there isn't a big research budget but there should be. The current system puts research $ into things that can be more lucrative, not cheap things. BTW, there's nothing magic about probiotics - the active ingredient is simply live bacteria, which is what the elephant was reaching for, though the probiotics might not contain all the species needed.

And generally once you hit the $1,000,000 mark (if you have decent insurance) the insurance company cuts you off.

Regarding dogs, they aren't picky.

I witnessed a dog eat some dog shit that had a whole lot of worms standing up in the air. It was so gross.

Bye the way - that was on my way to school in 2nd grade. Obviously it made a lasting impression.

Zlxr says

worms

Helminthic therapy? We look at dogs and assume that much of their behavior must be terribly unhealthy, but somehow they rarely stay sick for more than a day. They rely on evolution, not advertising. Of course they benefit enormously from vaccines and other new technology, but most of their ancestors had to find a way to survive without all that stuff.

Zlxr says

I witnessed a dog eat some dog shit that had a whole lot of worms standing up in the air. It was so gross.

I watched my GF's Yorkie during hurricane Andrew. When the storm came over... well this isn't that story. But while I had the dog, I heard him smacking his lips in a dinky sounding "smack-clack-smack" and I was like "Hey what are you eating?" I stuck my finger in his mouth(because my GF said he was pronged to swallowing house hold items. ) and discovered it was his own crap.

Now every time I hear that over compression on NPR where the people talking all have this lip smacking cracking when they talk, it reminds me of that stupid poop eating dog.

Can we get 121212/ThedayToday to eat his own crap to see if it cures his terminal GASBAG syndrome??

SoftShell says

Can we get 121212/ThedayToday to eat his own crap to see if it cures his terminal GASBAG syndrome??

Softshell= RUKI/SHREK/SHRELGRINCH/XRPB11A/kingshit/ KennethCrass

Wanker

Your full of Crap!

May cure their problem more effective then antibiotics

This stuck out like a sore thumb, of course, relatively speaking, as antibiotics wreak havoc on your gut flora. Was pleased to see fellow posters keen to the good information, bringing up probiotics. The bacteria in your guts is so much more important to ones health, then most all of us can imagine

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/gut-flora-healthy-immune-system/

What a lod of crap.

Actually this is old news. Usually they use a spouse as the stool donor. Bring your own blender.

Zlxr says

have you heard about the new therapy of giving fat people whip worms so they can lose weight?

Yes - yet another example of cheap solutions probably safer than Fen-Phen etc. The widespread expansion of obesity in recent decades is mostly due to sugar and subsidized corn (HFCS), but an additional factor may be that fewer people have worms. I would never recommend worms for an otherwise healthy person, but they are probably safer (and certainly cheaper) than stomach staples and many diet drugs.

Intestinal worms are a bit like leeches: leeches should be avoided normally, but can be useful in some circumstances, e.g. after re-attachment surgery.

I remember when I was young, my cousin got leukemia. Her mother is uber religious and they wanted to take as natural and as homeopathic a route to "cure" her as possible. There's a lot of flim flammery out there with the witch doctors and all, but relative to modern medicine and the crap that the government approves, allows, and licenses, I'm not sure how much worse off you'd be going the alt route for most conditions

Anywhoo, this aunt came across some treatment for herself that killed off the worms in her own guts, and I remember my mom saying that she pooped out many pounds of worms and some were huge. I don't even know what that means or why I decided to post it, but the memory was activated in my brain because this aunt has been constantly ill over the years since.

I still feel like you're better off with absolutely zero "healthcare" so long as its the american brand, including the usfedgov nutritional reccomendations, as opposed to having access to more of this dangerous bullshit. Makes me sick

errc says

this aunt has been constantly ill over the years since.

She might be getting re-infested with worms, which can cause a wide variety of symptoms. She might want to try some food-grade DE, or an anti-helmintic. Also the paleo diet can kill or stun worms - which isn't an endorsement btw, if your diet has become so limited that even worms can't live on it. A lot of alt commenters rave about silica as a dietary supplement; it's the primary component of DE, so I suspect they may have been previously suffering from worms. Possibly the only benefit of routine colonoscopies is, doctors are noticing that otherwise healthy people often have worms. Usually there are no symptoms until the infestation becomes large, but if your aunt had a major infestation before, then she might have that again. Maybe diet - people eat all sorts of things, some literally eat dirt, others eat vegetables without washing the soil off. Whatever caused her to get infested the first time, if she kept doing that, she might be infested again.

Or conceivably it could be the opposite, the worms may have been protecting her from something worse in her diet. Or it might be a coincidence. I don't know, certainly not medical advice, but DE is cheap and it de-worms the digestive tract as many people including farmers can attest.

Wow - maybe she didn't continue long enough to get the eggs and the ones that wandered out of her gut.

Something someone could try either with people or cultures regarding funguses would be as follows.

Find a bunch of guys with athletes foot that also have really stinky feet.

Have some try the current athletes foot and stinky foot medications and have the rest try the following stuff:

1. Try soaking feet in a basin of hot water with Apple Cider Vinegar, 20 Mule Team Borax and Hydrogen Peroxide. It will cure stinky feet - not sure how good or how fast it works on athletes foot.

2. Try soaking in salt and baking soda mixture (twice as much baking soda as salt).

3. Try putting a probiotic with the right bacteria for athletes foot on it.

4. Try Cream of Tartar. It's a baking product - that is actually a byproduct of the wine making industry. I guess the wine won't ferment if this is in it.

I don't see how it could hurt anyone if it's topical or in a culture. Seems to me that even teenage boys (when they decide to become self conscious about such things) would think this is an interesting experiment.

I'm not sure how to set up the correct double blind experiment - but at least it would be interesting and they could get a lot of laughs out of it.

Oh - also find a bunch of teenage boys who fart alot and have them all try probiotics and find out which ones work the best.

They'll be happy and so will everyone else.

Zlxr says

Then again - have you heard about the new therapy of giving fat people whip worms so they can lose weight?

Or using hook worms as a treatment for asthma, allergies, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy

It makes sense.

I saw this on reddit about a month ago.

Maybe easier to just take your probiotics regularly and keep healthy intestinal flora.

As someone who has had some intestinal issues, especially a few decades ago, it has been fascinating to watch what was accepted in the alternative health care community decades ago, pick up steam (FINALLY) in the established medical world.

That is, that probiotics really work.

There is a huge population of good bacteria in your intestines, and if it's out of whack, it can lead to all kinds of problems.

For those of us with chronic problems, understanding the value of probiotics has been a godsend. I have taken them regularly for decades. Yogurt is great too, but is primarily only acidophilus. The bifuda strains are the ones for your colon.

marcus says

For those of us with chronic problems...

Wow it's tempting to list yours, but I shall refrain.

Zlxr says

Something someone could try....

You should try suggesting your experiments to a high school science teacher, they might be developed into very interesting additions to the curriculum. A related experiment regarding anti-fungal products would compare Dollar Store clotrimazole to brand name products costing 10x more, and prescription products costing many times more than that. Everybody gets yeast infections, and clotrimazole is equally effective regardless of cost. It's silly to wait for an Rx and spend hundreds of dollars (the Obamacare model) when $1 will solve the problem faster and more easily. Of course, much depends on preventing teenagers from figuring that out, or at least postponing it as long as possible; they must be lured by advertising and hooked by their own government into overpaying for the most expensive products, in order to maximize revenue for the patronage networks of their dear leaders. That's the bottom line really: these cheap things might literally be crap, but the expensive stuff is often worse than that.

I got my grandson to take probiotics when he was about 13 or 14.

As you know - boys/men have a lifelong love affair with farts - but not at school in front of girls. After he found out it worked he started asking me for them. But you definitely need the probiotics that have lots more than just lacto bacillus. The kind I use comes individually wrapped and doesn't require refrigeration. It would also help if you learn to make your own Sauerkraut and stuff like that. Check out the book "Wild Fermentation".

You need to take enzymes and check to see if you actually have enough stomach acid if you have major gut problems - but when it comes to taking stomach acid the only one I liked was HCL + 2. I haven't been taking it for awhile, though, since I seem to be much better now. And be really careful with what you eat.

A couple good colonics can do wonders as well. And even during colonoscopies the doctors can miss parasites because they hide between the placque and the colon lining.

Curious2 is right about the DE (Diatomaceous Earth - food grade). Just mix it with juice or water. It's not gross. You can also use Clarkia Extra Strong. Just know that according to most of what I have read that parasites are most active at a full moon so the best time to treat is definitely the 3 days before and after the full moon. But many treatments can continue much longer. I also understand that the DE can clean your colon out and help remove heavy metals but I'm not positive that it actually does.

However, it's also true that if you start treating for parasites that they will start to move up and away from the gut region. At this point in time I am not aware of any treatments for outside of the gut - except for the Salt +Vitamin C regimen.

Also - Curious2 - does DE work on Giardia? I don't think stool samples always show it and I know of someone who went to a parisitologist and the doctor took a scraping from the colon lining instead of a stool sample. All our water ways are polluted with it - but they hardly ever test people for it.

Also - another reason to be aware of parasites - is because if they aren't in your gut and you take pharmaceutical meds and a ton of them die and your body can't handle that much dead stuff - you could die. At least that's the gist of what I got when I was reading a veterinarian article. So the best remedy is to kill them slowly or basically keep the load down by using the safest means like DE which you can take daily and don't allow them to grow to the point where it's lethal in the first place.

And for those of you who think you have never ever eaten a parasite. If you have ever eaten a strawberry or a raw mushroom you have. They're on the list of foods for cancer patients to avoid for that very reason.

Also, unfortunately, even if you are seriously ill - doctors rarely check for parasites and/or the labs don't recognize parasite eggs. I've read of cases where a patient is deathly ill and the doctors finally decide to check their sputum for parasites (and it came back positive) but that was 2 weeks before the patient died.

How come they can't understand that we are more likely to get parasites than all other things combined and it's the last thing they check for?

The original treatment for women's yeast infections was to douche with yogurt.

If that worked before meds were invented - then it should still work - that or a good lacto bacillus probiotic.

I meant acidophilus.

Zlxr says

Curious2 - does DE work on Giardia?

I doubt it. The usual mechanism of action is, the spiky diatoms poke lethal holes in insect exoskeletons and the thin tissues of worms. It can also work as a desiccant in some environments that aren't too wet, but mammal intestines are much too wet for that. Gardia protozoans are so tiny that they would probably not be affected, unless metabolized silica might affect them. I haven't seen any studies and can't advise specifically, but if I had to bet I'd say no.

Zlxr says

How come [doctors] can't understand that we are more likely to get parasites than all other things combined and it's the last thing they check for?

Easy question. Doctors are trained by a revenue maximizing system to check for the most expensive and urgent things first. The results are often ambiguous, so they proceed based on the availability heuristic, i.e. they "recognize" the most easily recalled memory and they often don't have time to work through the many differential diagnoses. They "recognize" what they have seen before, usually what they have been taught, whether it's there or not. Because they start with the most expensive and most urgent, they tend not to work their way down to differential diagnoses that can be solved cheaply. PhRMA has co-opted doctors into salesmen. You wouldn't expect a Realtor(tm) to tell you that you would be better off with a cheaper house or apartment; they are trained to sell you the product with the highest commission - especially when the cost can be shifted onto others via insurance and subsidies. Patients are also to blame: they see a pill advertised on TV, and then lie to their doctor to get a prescription; if you go into a Ford dealership asking for a Ford, the "successful" salesman will oblige without arguing, even if you might have been better off with a Buick or a bicycle.

Zlxr says

I meant acidophilus.

You can fix the typo by editing the post, just friendly advice.

Info regarding yeast infections and what the meds do to your body.
It still bears testing and also testing to see which kinds of yeast.
I think this is the one about Cream of Tartar killing yeast infections.

http://www.totalityofbeing.com/FramelessPages/Articles/YeastInfections.htm

Potential remedies for yeast infections - but they bear testing

http://www.healthcareveda.com/post/Home-Remedies-For-A-Vaginal-Yeast-Infection.aspx

Potential remedies using 20 Mule Team Borax

Works on athletes foot, might help with curing baldness, etc. etc.

http://www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/borax.html#AF

http://www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/borax.html#BORAXBACKGROUND

Info regarding using garlic for a cure - this is one of my favorite OTC antibiotics

Should test the liquid Allimed and see how well it does on athletes foot

http://www.allimax.us/products.php

MMS - another cure for anaerobic bacteria - the cheapest “antibiotic” - actually all it does I think is oxidize anaerobic bacteria - read Jim Humble’s story - it’s actually very interesting. It actually smells like bleach when it is activated and works faster than bleach as well. It can purify dirty water - so you should have it around. It’s what I use to keep from getting sick during the flu season.

http://jimhumble.org/18-skin-care.html

http://jimhumble.org/basic-science-of-mms-chlorine-dioxide.html

leo707 says

Zlxr says

Then again - have you heard about the new therapy of giving fat people whip worms so they can lose weight?

Or using hook worms as a treatment for asthma, allergies, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy

Reminds me of a an episode of 1000 Ways to Die.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fda-grapples-oversight-fecal-transplants-154448664--finance.html

FDA grapples with oversight of fecal transplants

WASHINGTON (AP) — Imagine a low-cost treatment for a life-threatening infection that could cure up to 90 percent of patients with minimal side effects, often in a few days.

It may sound like a miracle drug, but this cutting-edge treatment is profoundly simple — though somewhat icky: take the stool of healthy patients to cure those with hard-to-treat intestinal infections. A small but growing number of physicians have begun using these so-called fecal transplants to treat Clostridium difficile, commonly referred to as C-diff, a bacterial infection that causes nausea, cramping and diarrhea. The germ afflicts a half-million Americans annually and kills about 15,000 of them.

But fecal transplants pose a challenge for the Food and Drug Administration, which has decided to regulate the treatment as an experimental drug. Stool transplants don't fit neatly into the agency's standard framework. And while regulators have shown flexibility in their approach, some critics say the mere presence of government oversight is discouraging many doctors from offering transplants. That's led some patients to seek out questionable "do-it-yourself" websites, forums and videos.

Most researchers agree that the FDA's concerns are warranted. Patients can contract HIV, hepatitis and other viruses and parasites from fecal matter that is not properly screened. Additionally, there are no long-term studies on potential side effects of stool transplantation.

FDA officials declined to be interviewed for this story, but said in a written response that the fecal transplantation "shows promise in treating C. difficile infection that has not been responsive to other therapies."

Indeed, with many patients no longer responding to potent antibiotics, fecal transplants have emerged as an effective therapy against drug-resistant strains of the C-diff superbug. The procedure works because the healthy bacteria found in donors' feces can help fight off foreign infections.

"We're dealing with something that is pretty close to miraculous," says Dr. Lawrence Brandt of New York's Montefiore Medical Center, who has performed over 200 fecal transplants.

Most products reviewed by the FDA spend years in testing before they are submitted to the agency, usually by large drug or medical device developers. Fecal transplants have followed a different path.

In recent years, a handful of doctors have published small case studies on their use of stool to treat C-diff, with many reporting cure rates of about 90 percent. In January 2013, the New England Journal of Medicine published the first rigorous, head-to-head study showing that fecal transplants were superior to antibiotics for patients with recurring C-diff.

The FDA announced last May that it would regulate stool transplants as an experimental drug, meaning doctors could only perform transplants under an FDA-approved research application. The so-called investigational new drug application must include detailed information on the drug to be tested, the study design and safeguards to protect patients. Assembling a single application can take months or years, even for large drugmakers.

Doctors pushed back, saying the requirement would force them to turn away desperate patients.

"FDA and some others are concerned about the long-term effects," Brandt said. "But my point was these people are getting ready to die now. They are not going to survive long enough to develop the diseases you're afraid they're going to get."

A few weeks later, the FDA revised its position, saying it would not enforce the requirement for doctors treating patients with drug-resistant C-diff — provided donors are properly screened and patients are informed that fecal transplants are still experimental.

But regulating stool samples as a drug presents other challenges. While it's easy to limit access to experimental drugs, everyone has access to stool. And with detailed instructions available on websites like thepowerofpoop.com, there's nothing to stop patients from trying the procedure at home — especially if they can't find a doctor to perform it.

"Some of these patients are very desperate and they're not going to take no for an answer," says Dr. Michael Edmond of Virginia Commonwealth University, who has performed fecal transplants for patients who travel from as far away as Ohio.

Catherine Duff of Carmel, Indiana, says she had no choice but to help herself. In April 2012, she was suffering through her seventh C-diff. infection, going to the bathroom 20 to 30 times a day and making multiple trips to the hospital due to dehydration.

"My quality of life had gotten to the point where I was beginning to think that it might be better to die," says Duff, 58.

Duff asked three different physicians if she could try a fecal transplant, but none were willing to perform the procedure. Her gastroenterologist did offer to test her husband's stool to make sure it wasn't contaminated.

Using instructions found online, Duff and her husband created a solution from his stool sample, mixing it with saline in a blender and administering it via an enema bottle. Four hours later, Duff said she felt good enough to get up and go for a walk.

Today, Duff runs a nonprofit group, the Fecal Transplant Foundation, which aims to raise awareness of the procedure and help patients. Duff says she gets up to 15 emails a day from patients looking for a doctor or a donor. Some even ask if they can use a stool sample from their infants or pets.

Duff says the unresolved status of FDA's oversight discourages more doctors from offering the treatment. "There are so many doctors who are suspicious that the FDA could change their mind at any given moment and decide to not exercise discretion," Duff says.

According to a list maintained by the foundation, only about 100 physicians offer fecal transplants in the U.S. There is no one method for performing the procedure. Some doctors liquefy the stool and drip it into the patient's colon via colonoscopy. Others use a tube that runs from the nose down into the stomach.

With so few providers available, proponents of stool transplantation have come up with innovative solutions. One big hurdle is the high cost of screening a stool sample, which can run up to $1,500 per sample. Insurance typically doesn't cover testing the stool sample because donors are usually healthy without signs of sickness.

Since October 2013, a Boston-based "stool bank" has managed to bring costs down to about $250 per treatment by screening samples in bulk. To date, OpenBiome has shipped over 300 stool samples in ready-to-use frozen preparations to 39 hospitals.

But in March, the FDA released an updated proposal for regulating fecal transplants, saying doctors should only use stool from a donor who is "known" to either the patient or their physician. Some doctors and patients worried the proposal, if finalized, would shutter OpenBiome and a handful of other stool banks, which use anonymous donors and ship to providers hundreds of miles away.

But OpenBiome founder, Mark Smith, says his group continues operating after having several productive discussions with the FDA. Smith says regulators have encouraged him to set up a formal study in which hospitals that work with OpenBiome will contribute data on the safety and effectiveness of fecal transplants.

"They understand the importance of making treatment available for patients today, while making sure there is adequate oversight of the risks," Smith says. "We're actually totally on the same page."

zzyzzx says

Feces transplant may help relieve severe diarrhea

Finally, a use for Fox News.

Dan8267 says

zzyzzx says

Feces transplant may help relieve severe diarrhea

Finally, a use for Fox News.

Yes - they're so full of shit, there's plenty to go around

I'm waiting for Designer Feces Transplants of the Stars, in individual, autographed containers.

If nothing else, you will wind up with absolutely fabulous shit.

Who wouldn't want Scarlett Johansson up their ass?

Ceffer says

Who wouldn't want Scarlett Johansson up their ass?

I think you got that backwards.

You don't have to take this Shit!

Regarding DE it is important to get the food grade kind as pool grade DE has been treated in such a way so as to make it toxic.

New Renter says

Regarding DE it is important to get the food grade kind as pool grade DE has been treated in such a way so as to make it toxic.

So what no turd enemas?

If only a fecal implant could cure verbal diarrhea, they'd be on to something, but the internet air waves would shrink by 90 percent.

It could be called the "Shit for Bullshit" campaign.

Does conservative republican shit work in liberal democrats?

elliemae says

Does conservative republican shit work in liberal democrats?

Maybe you're talking about the "shit for brains" transplant.