patrick.net

Call it Crazy says

Kevin says

Gun ownership in 1990 was 54%. Today it's 47%. In 1990 the gun murder rate was 2.5x what it is today.

Here we go with meaningless percentages... what was the total population in 1990 versus what is the total population now. Give us the actual numbers for your percentages and you will see a higher number of people own guns while the murder rate went down.

How could that be??

All of these are per-capita numbers, you stupid fucking moron. The TOTAL NUMBER of murders has gone down as has the TOTAL RATE OF MURDERS.

This is because the TOTAL RATE has gone down by MORE THAN POPULATION HAS GROWN.

Using your logic, here are a bunch of other things that are true:

- There has been a dramatic increase in people born with two penises!
- The number of cars, houses, and t shirts are completely out of control!
- Consumption of food has MORE THAN DOUBLED! No wonder why we're so fart!
- Basically everybody graduates from college!
- There are more jobs than there are people!

Living in a reality-based reality is a good thing. You should try it some time.

Call it Crazy says

Answer, they're not.... but we need NEW laws banning "assault weapons" (whatever they might be) and 30 round magazines, like this will make a difference, since 80% of all murders happen in the inner cities with handguns...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448529/

80% of gun murders happen in cities because EIGHTY PERCENT OF THE POPULATION LIVES IN CITIES. Do you even read the shit you write?

Call it Crazy says

A few examples where the existing laws don't work because the criminals don't give a shit about them... how about Chicago, how about Oakland, how about Stockton, how about Camden... how are the strict laws working out to minimize shooting deaths in these areas??

Hard to say. Chicago had the highest murder rate in the country when they started enacting strict gun controls in the 80s and 90s. They're squarely in the middle now.

Like every US city, crime rates are down dramatically overall. There were 940 murders in Chicago in 1974 and about 500 in 2012. Population has been relatively constant.

It's worth mentioning that chicago's murder rate declined by more than any other city since they started enacting strict gun control. How much of that owes to simply starting from a higher peak and how much owes to the gun control is extremely poorly researched.

Call it Crazy says

Strict gun laws and background checks already exist in many states. In fact, in the recent CT. school shooting, the owner of the guns used had passed all required checks and the guns were legally owned. Also, Adam Lanza had tried to buy his own gun and was turned down. So, now what.

Looks like the background check system worked in that case, didn't it??

But, Lanza stole the firearms from a legal owner and went on his rampage, so all the background checks in the world wouldn't have prevented him, since he was hell bent on breaking the law.

See, this is everything that's wrong with this logic.

NOBODY is suggesting that gun control eliminates all murders. ZERO PEOPLE ARE SAYING THIS.

Yes, there are plenty of situations where a bad person could obtain a weapon.

The whole point is to make it more difficult.

The only way for it to be impossible for a bad person to obtain a firearm would be for firearms to not exist.

You can definitely argue that gun control laws don't have the intended effect, but starting with the premise that they're only effective if they eliminate bad people from getting guns entirely is completely wrong.

Bap33 says

Thedaytoday says

40% of illegal gun trafficking is done by 1% of gun shops! due to the NRA

rolling back inventory clauses!

look, professor, 100% of gun crime is done by criminals that don't give two shits about your libtarded laws. Armed citizens that follow the existing laws against murder are not your problem, they are the criminals problem. NEXT!

Dude, try to follow, o.k.? 40% of illegal gun trafficking done by 1% of gun shops. So if we were to simply keep track of who the shops are selling the guns to, we could significantly cut down the number of CRIMINALS who are getting guns. Try to think about that before your knee starts jerking.

Call it Crazy says

But, Lanza stole the firearms from a legal owner and went on his rampage, so all the background checks in the world wouldn't have prevented him, since he was hell bent on breaking the law.

If I were arguing that ALL gun murders would be prevented by making guns harder for criminals to get, then you might have an argument here that was worth making. Do you understand this ?

Call it Crazy says

Show me the facts and data that says criminals bought their weapons without background checks? I haven't seen any of that data yet from the anti-gun crowd.

"anti-gun crowd ?" Again 89% of republicans, and 75% of NRA members are for universal background checks.

The data says 40% of guns are bought without background checks.

The simplest part of background checks is the part that checks criminal record.

So let's see people with criminal records are getting guns, and 40% of gun sales are made without a background check.

Do you really need me to connect the dots for you ?

I'm sure more will have to be done. But you have to start somewhere.

Call it Crazy says

Oh, and I wouldn't use Cory Booker as a reference... he is the mayor of the garbage, sewer city of Newark... and NJ has extremely strict handgun laws...

Booker can't even clean up his own town of gun violence, but he wants to go on the national stage and rant about gun laws... he's as bad a Rahm in Chicago!!!

He talks a lot about how criminals get their guns. That's his obsession, how to curtail illegal or black market gun traffic.

And he's right, it is a false debate. Over 90% of americans are for universal background checks. I don't think universal background checks will be nearly enough to significantly stop illegal or black market gun trafficking. But it's a good place to start.

marcus says

Bap33 says

criminals that don't give two shits about your libtarded laws

THey don't have to give to shits. If guns get harder for criminals to obtain, then guns get harder for criminals to obtain.

Even if it was just a matter of the price going up tenfold over a period of a few decades (inflation adjusted dollars) - that is, for guns bought on the black market.

How can anyone in their right mind not realize that will cause less teens shooting each other in inner cities.

I do not think the inner city youths are so lazy as to not do what it taks to be armed better than their target. Ponder that a minute, because at some point it may be you that is the target. You see, in my opinion, when red and blue come together, they will target you and I.

There is no reason behind limiting access to any weapon by any legal American citizen. None. It just makes liberals feel empowered and self-important. Much like man-made-global-wraming bull shit EPA laws, gun control is just the now-in-power dopehead generation's way to feel like they make a difference when making a difference is too much work.

3000 babies are murdered by abortion each and every day in America. If you made that harder to access it would save more lives than all the gun murder of teens, in all innercities, combined. Fact.

This is not about the libtarded progressives saving any life .. not one ... it is about spreading the misery, creating as many possible victims to rely on Lord Barry as possible -- text book liberalism 101

Homeboy says

Bap33 says

Thedaytoday says

40% of illegal gun trafficking is done by 1% of gun shops! due to the NRA

rolling back inventory clauses!

look, professor, 100% of gun crime is done by criminals that don't give two shits about your libtarded laws. Armed citizens that follow the existing laws against murder are not your problem, they are the criminals problem. NEXT!

Dude, try to follow, o.k.? 40% of illegal gun trafficking done by 1% of gun shops. So if we were to simply keep track of who the shops are selling the guns to, we could significantly cut down the number of CRIMINALS who are getting guns. Try to think about that before your knee starts jerking.

dude, pay attention, the "illegal gun traffic" has a zero effect or value unless said weapon is used in a crime. Your knee is a bit wobbly?

Bap33 says

There is no reason behind limiting access to any weapon by any legal American citizen.

This is true, which is why nobody is doing that.

Get a grip man.

As we get older we are supposed to get smarter, wiser, better at learning, and above all more emotionally well grounded and balanced.

But some people go the other way. They get more ignorant, more close minded, less capable of learning, with their worst emotional attributes only growing and taking over.

Go ahead find some hate radio to turn on or something. I don't think you are going to find any normal people that can appreciate your point of view here.

THen again, if you live in hillbilly territory, maybe it's as easy as walking outside and talking to your neighbors.

Bap33 says

I do not think the inner city youths are so lazy as to not do what it taks to be armed better than their target.

So if guns get harder to get. If it gets harder for a legal citizen to buy 20 legal guns in one state, and then sell them for a profit to kids in Jersey. If background checks are improved and penalties for individual illegal resales are made huge....If all of these things are done, you don't think that decades from now we can't have less teens on the street armed ?

You don't think that sometimes murder happens just because some stupid punk kid has a gun that was too easy to get ?

Quigley says

86 years ago my grandpappy's father died in a pistol duel with his brother over a woman.

She wasn't their sister was she?
Cue banjo music.
Sorry, couldn't resist.

Bap33 says

I do not think the inner city youths are so lazy as to not do what it taks to be armed better than their target. Ponder that a minute, because at some point it may be you that is the target. You see, in my opinion, when red and blue come together, they will target you and I.

Oh please. The drug dealers kill each other over drugs. They don't give a shit about you or me.

Bap33 says

There is no reason behind limiting access to any weapon by any legal American citizen. None.

So are you OK with a group of young muslim american men owning a stockpile of nuclear weapons?

Bap33 says

Much like man-made-global-wraming bull shit EPA laws, gun control is just the now-in-power dopehead generation's way to feel like they make a difference when making a difference is too much work.

Pulling out the nutjob double whammy I see.

Bap33 says

3000 babies are murdered by abortion each and every day in America. If you made that harder to access it would save more lives than all the gun murder of teens, in all innercities, combined. Fact.

Woah, the trifecta!

(I also love the "inner city" line. You do realize that "inner cities" are where the rich, white, single, liberals live, don't you? It's not 1985 anymore).

Bap33 says

This is not about the libtarded progressives saving any life .. not one ... it is about spreading the misery, creating as many possible victims to rely on Lord Barry as possible -- text book liberalism 101

Or maybe people just think that they don't want kids getting shot.

Sometimes I wonder if this website is just a honeypot to try to monitor people like you so that they can stop you before you turn into another Timothy McVeigh.

marcus says

You don't think that sometimes murder happens just because some stupid punk
kid has a gun that was too easy to get ?

yes ... just like fist fights happen when little punks get drunk.

Lets try this: If the penalty for commiting murder (with any weapon, no weapon, whatever) was a nude public hanging with the body left hanging in public for a month while the birds and critters ate at it, then fewer people would be willing to commit murder .. with a weapon or not. So, lets make murder really unpopular. I'm all for that.

Now, someone will say that the threat of getting hung nude in public, with your body being ate by nature, is not a deturant to murder ... but, having to go through some bullshit to get a good weapon -THAT is just enough to curb a murderers desire!! come on man, that's just horseshit.

3000 babies murdered every day .... who's ready to make that harder to commit?

Kevin says

Or maybe people just think that they don't want kids getting shot.

as I said, if it's about saving lives you would want to target the murder of 3000 aborted babies, and make it harder to do. And you don't. Are you an Obamabot?

Kevin says

The drug dealers kill each other over drugs.

Only because they have no worries about food or warmth. If there is a hicup in the welfare money supply (either the direct line sent to their baby-mamas, or through their drug customers) then they will be interested in food and water and warmth. Your food, water, and warmth .. and little girls and wives. It aint 1985 anymore.

p.s., marcus used inner city, not me, go bother him.

Bap33 says

3000 babies murdered every day .... who's ready to make that harder to commit?

That could have been another 3000 worthless eaters for you to mow down with your AK47 when the SHTF. Thank us Liberals for saving you precious ammo.

marcus says

THen again, if you live in hillbilly territory, maybe it's as easy as walking
outside and talking to your neighbors.

a very good point. as I sat at coffee this moring, each of my fellow coffee drinkers agreed with me on the gun debate. We had 2 farmers, 2 construction workers, 2 small business guys, me (public worker of sorts), and 3 retired guys (1 air force, 1 dairy, 1 insurance broker). All have weapons, some have cc permits, 2 had their weapons on them. Of the 10 guys I am the youngest at 44. I would say they average 65. My views on here match my views in life (pretty much), and they all are more "right" than me, and some are more "libertarian" than even me. These guys are what I think the faberic of this nation is made of, not the left-leaning personas that we find on here and in most of the webonisphere. Just my gut feeling, when considering the personalities drawn to this form of communication.

But, marcus, as we both know, everything on here is just smoke. If we were sitting at the same cafe, we could have a good conversation and shake hands and both walk away knowing all we did was make ourselves feel better by having the chance to explain our reasons for our visions. And thats cool.

In the real world, I think things are FUBAR in Cal and in America. FUBAR. But, that is from my little spot in the valle de mexifornia. Someone in Provo may see things different.

Call it Crazy says

Kevin says

Oh please. The drug dealers kill each other over drugs. They don't give a shit about you or me.

and they certainly don't give a shit about any current gun or murder laws...

but we need MORE laws for them to ignore.... right....

Again, the belief that laws don't have any impact just isn't true. If you don't believe so, why not legalize murder?

Bap33 says

as I said, if it's about saving lives you would want to target the murder of 3000 aborted babies, and make it harder to do. And you don't. Are you an Obamabot?

You can't abort a baby, you can only abort a fetus. A fetus isn't a human being. A child in a school is.

Bap33 says

Only because they have no worries about food or warmth. If there is a hicup in the welfare money supply (either the direct line sent to their baby-mamas, or through their drug customers) then they will be interested in food and water and warmth. Your food, water, and warmth .. and little girls and wives. It aint 1985 anymore.

Oh, yeah, the drug dealers are getting all of their 'food and warmth' from tiny welfare checks and foodstamps. Not the billions of dollars per year that people spend on illegal drugs.

Bap33 says

These guys are what I think the faberic of this nation is made of, not the left-leaning personas that we find on here and in most of the webonisphere.

That's probably because you've never experienced the country outside of your corner of it.

Spend a little time actually living in a big city and you'll find it's not a scary or dangerous place, and that nobody is going to come kill you or your daughters.

Kevin says

You can't abort a baby, you can only abort a fetus. A fetus isn't a human
being. A child in a school is.

lol .. your libtardation is hindering you, big guy. Please, if you will, tell me how many children were never fetus'. And tell me what those fetus' are, if not just younger versions of humans? Ready, go!

Kevin says

Again, the belief that laws don't have any impact just isn't true

lmao .. so, the pro-dope-smokers that pushed through legal dope did so how/why again?.. umm, the big reason was "everyone does it and they are not hurting anyone!" .. but, wait, there was ALREADY A LAW AGAINST SMOKING DOPE ... and, yet, here we are. I know, I know, "deetedee", the common libtard repsonse.

Was there a law against smoking dope? Did it stop the scum that smoke dope from doing so?

Was there a law against male sodomite coupling? Did it stop it?

Is there a law against under age sex? Did it stop?

I have a few more, but those are kind of fun so we can start there.

Kevin says

Not the billions of dollars per year that people spend on illegal drugs.

Productive people are not the drug dealers main end user. Unproductive people are the majority drug user in America. Most people that access and use illegal drugs are also relying on some sort of public assistance, either directly or through an enabler (baby mama, mom, granny, family, sister, -- someone else on full blown aide). They may not rely on the cash, directly, but rely on the Section 8 housing, WIC food, EBT card, clothes, toliet paper, medicne, transportation, stuff that comes free and easy to them .. all of which will allow them to use whatever cash money they may get from fencing stolen property on Craigs list, or from their part-time job at the car wash, or painting curb numbers, or mowing yards - on drugs. All of it on drugs. In my opinion, if the free cash lever is removed then the drug dealers take a pay cut. Besides, my example is given in the light of a major issue making food scarce ... and if at that time you don't think it will be them taking your last (fill in blank) away from your dead body, you are nutso. It will not be an armed right winger, and you know it. When you go up to the ATM at night, you are not afraid that Hannity will come up behind you with his gun in his hand. As a matter of fact, you would feel better knowing an armed right-winger was near by if you had cause to be in a dark alley. Don't lie.

Bap33 says

dude, pay attention, the "illegal gun traffic" has a zero effect or value unless said weapon is used in a crime. Your knee is a bit wobbly?

So fucking what? Do you have a point, or do you just like to jabber about nothing?

lol .. you really should do that again, only use the whole quote with all of our commentary ... lol. And read them again, slooowly. lmao. Nice use of profanity, by the way. That REALLY drives home your oh-so-hard-to-fathom awesomness.

Bap33 says

Kevin says

You can't abort a baby, you can only abort a fetus. A fetus isn't a human

being. A child in a school is.

lol .. your libtardation is hindering you, big guy. Please, if you will, tell me how many children were never fetus'. And tell me what those fetus' are, if not just younger versions of humans? Ready, go!

A fetus is a precursor to mammalian life. It comes after an embryo and sperm, but before birth. Surely you paid attention in 5th grade sex ed classes?

All human children were once embryos, sperm and eggs, proteins and lipids, minerals and amino acids, free molecules, and energy.

Now, to restate: A fetus isn't a human being. I'll grant that it's not "nothing", and is a more important life form than a non-sentient animal (being the precursor to a human being), but it isn't the same thing as a living human child.

I don't necessarily draw the line of "life" at birth like some people -- I just don't believe that a fetus that is not fully developed is a human life any more than a sperm cell is.

Bap33 says

lmao .. so, the pro-dope-smokers that pushed through legal dope did so how/why again?.. umm, the big reason was "everyone does it and they are not hurting anyone!" .. but, wait, there was ALREADY A LAW AGAINST SMOKING DOPE ... and, yet, here we are. I know, I know, "deetedee", the common libtard repsonse.

Ending prohibition is about the negative consequences of prohibition, not about changing rates of use.

And, yes, the "pro dope smokers" don't believe that they're hurting anyone, because they aren't. Prohibition was stupid legislation brought about by a gross misunderstanding of substance abuse founded in belief rather than science.

Bap33 says

Was there a law against smoking dope? Did it stop the scum that smoke dope from doing so?

Yes, indeed it did. It stopped plenty of non-scum from doing so as well.

Ah, I forgot, you're one of those stupid fucking morons who thinks that a law is ineffective unless it completely eliminates some bad behavior.

So, once again, with emphasis:

NO LAW CAN COMPLETELY PREVENT SOMETHING FROM HAPPENING. IF YOU BELIEVE THAT A LAW IS INEFFECTIVE IF IT PREVENTS SOMETHING FROM HAPPENING 100% OF THE TIME, YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON.

Bap33 says

Productive people are not the drug dealers main end user. Unproductive people are the majority drug user in America. Most people that access and use illegal drugs are also relying on some sort of public assistance, either directly or through an enabler (baby mama, mom, granny, family, sister, -- someone else on full blown aide).

[citation needed]

The language you're choosing to use pretty much says everything about your whole stance on this. I get it: You don't like poor (black) people. Why not just say that instead of coming up with all of these indirect ways to say it?

Bap33 says

They may not rely on the cash, directly, but rely on the Section 8 housing, WIC food, EBT card, clothes, toliet paper, medicne, transportation, stuff that comes free and easy to them .. all of which will allow them to use whatever cash money they may get from fencing stolen property on Craigs list, or from their part-time job at the car wash, or painting curb numbers, or mowing yards - on drugs. All of it on drugs.

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

The most commonly abused substance amongst poor people is one that is widely legally available at most convenience stores. We tried to ban it once, and while abuse rates went down, the negative consequences were horrifying.

Bap33 says

In my opinion, if the free cash lever is removed then the drug dealers take a pay cut. Besides, my example is given in the light of a major issue making food scarce ... and if at that time you don't think it will be them taking your last (fill in blank) away from your dead body, you are nutso.

I'm not "nutso", I'm just not afraid of AM radio boogeymen.

Bap33 says

When you go up to the ATM at night, you are not afraid that Hannity will come up behind you with his gun in his hand. As a matter of fact, you would feel better knowing an armed right-winger was near by if you had cause to be in a dark alley. Don't lie.

On the rare occasions that I visit an ATM (people who live in places that matter don't use cash, silly man), I'm not afraid of anybody coming up behind me.

Things are pretty well lit in seattle, so we don't have a lot of dark alleys, but I definitely walk down alleys at night on a regular basis, and I've never once felt unsafe. I've had a few awkward encounters with drunk vagrants, but they're relatively harmless.

Now, out in the middle of nowhere, though? I've definitely felt unsafe. Driving through the texas panhandle and having to stop at some backwater filing station? Oh yeah. It's like deliverance in there.

Bap33 says

lol .. you really should do that again, only use the whole quote with all of our commentary ... lol. And read them again, slooowly. lmao. Nice use of profanity, by the way. That REALLY drives home your oh-so-hard-to-fathom awesomness.

So then you don't have a point. Just as I thought. It'd be nice if you stopped vomiting random words into this thread.

Kevin says

I just don't believe that a fetus that is not fully developed is a human life
any more than a sperm cell is.

not a human life?? it is life, and it is made from humans and it is required to create more humans, but you say it is not human life? A sperm cell does not split. Life is splitting cells. A fetus is life. A human fetus is human life. Going backwards in time from your age now, tell me when it is that you stop being a human life.

Abortion is murder of a baby. Fact.
3000 times every day in America. Fact.

Kevin says

NO LAW CAN COMPLETELY PREVENT SOMETHING FROM HAPPENING.

hmmmm ... wait, when did you jump over to my side?

Homeboy says

Bap33 says

lol .. you really should do that again, only use the whole quote with all of our commentary ... lol. And read them again, slooowly. lmao. Nice use of profanity, by the way. That REALLY drives home your oh-so-hard-to-fathom awesomness.

So then you don't have a point. Just as I thought. It'd be nice if you stopped vomiting random words into this thread.

lol .. go play. Nobody can force you to read, nor understand what you read, so you are free to go play. Adios.

Kevin says

I'm not "nutso", I'm just not afraid of AM radio boogeymen.

but you fear an armed white conservative Christian because Rosie O and Lord Barry said you should?

Call it Crazy says

Homeboy says

By the way, to answer your non-sequitur, Call It Quits, the murder rate is way down in California, so apparently gun control laws DO work.

Any chance murder rates are down in CA because more people are armed, which eliminates violent crime and attacks??

There are more firearms in the hands of CA residents in 2012 but murders are down...... how could that be if more "guns kill more people"??

*

Over a million more background checks in 2012 which means more firearms were purchased in 2012, but murders are down...

How do you explain that Einstein??

awesome

Bap33 says

lol .. go play. Nobody can force you to read, nor understand what you read, so you are free to go play. Adios.

So then you still don't have a point, I see.

Call it Crazy says

There are more firearms in the hands of CA residents in 2012 but murders are down...... how could that be if more "guns kill more people"??

Um, no there aren't. As Kevin said, gun ownership rate is down. Also, sales are down:

Were there more guns sold in 1989 or after 2000? Hope that question isn't too tough for you.

Bap33 says

not a human life?? it is life, and it is made from humans and it is required to create more humans, but you say it is not human life? A sperm cell does not split. Life is splitting cells. A fetus is life. A human fetus is human life. Going backwards in time from your age now, tell me when it is that you stop being a human life.

Cancer is also "human life". So is literally every part of my body by this logic.

No, a fetus is not a human life.

I became a human life when I could viably survive outside of my mother's womb. Since it's hard to definitely draw a line for when that occurred, I'm just going to say it was when my mother pushed me out of her vagina.

Bap33 says

Abortion is murder of a baby. Fact.

Opinion, actually, and one that the Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with.

Bap33 says

hmmmm ... wait, when did you jump over to my side?

Never, but you don't seem to grasp any point being made. I don't know why I bother with you.

Bap33 says

but you fear an armed white conservative Christian because Rosie O and Lord Barry said you should?

I don't know who Rosie O is. I assume you're talking about President Obama with "Lord Barry". I've never spoken with either of these people so I don't see how they could have told me anything.

But, no, I'm not really afraid of anybody. I don't know why you got that impression.

Homeboy says

Um, no there aren't. As Kevin said, gun ownership rate is down. Also, sales are down:

To be fair (and I'm not sure why I should be), he argued about an increase in sales in 2012. There was a slight increase, it's true, because of fear mongering dipshits telling everybody that Obama was going to take away all of their guns.

He's ignored every other year where gun ownership was higher and murders were higher, since there's one data point that vaguely supports his religious belief. You won't get anywhere arguing with him.

Kevin says

I became a human life when I could viably survive outside of my mother's womb.

whoa whoa whoa ... so you suggest we abandon every special needs kid, and every invalid adult that suffers from stroke, or MS .... wow .. do you realize Dr. Hawking has never been able to be human in your view? Amazing. Truly amazing. Your view cant possibly be correct. You do realize that, dont you?

Cancer is a cellular creation, no doubt. And there are new forms of life created by mutated cells. No doubt. Cancer is not human life, it is a mutation of a cell. Now, when you have a HEALTHY male sperm cell (a lone, single, only live once, never splits, cell) introduced to a female egg cell (a lone, sinlge, only live onve, never splits, cell) the two blend, join, merge, gell, and - almost like magic - become a NEW cell that is a singular, lone, individual, (not independant, but unique) cell -- and inside that very first cell is the entire DNA and instructions for each and every cell that has yet to be created by the SPLITTING of this very first cell ... and it splits, each cell matching itself the EXACT same numbers of times before a new form of matter is created. The cell that splits to make the eye splits exactly the same number of times as the cell that splits to make the knuckle in the right big toe. Now, when does the mass of billions of splitting cells seperate from being eye to being big toe? Never? But, it happens, obviously. Your eye and your big toe came from the same split cell. And at the very instant the first cell was created the size and color of your eye, and the location and size of your big toe were programed into the dell created by the sperm and the egg. If you can make me believe that at some point in time, that set of splitting cells had no idea what they were to create, and how many times to split before starting the next creation of matter, then maybe you will have a point. But, from my understanding of things, there is only one possible healthy life form that can come from the meeting of the sperm cell and the egg cell. Only one. It seems the cells are smart enough to know there is a human getting built by their efforts, but a few humans dont crasp it.

Bap33 says

Abortion is murder of a baby. Fact.

Actually there is no agreement on that which is why we have choice.

But nobody is pro abortion. SOme of us are pro choice.

sarcasm font on.

Isn't male masturbation murder too, at least for those of us who have ever masturbated when there was a woman willing to have unprotected sex with us ?

Why draw the line of potential life at the fertalization of the egg?

If I were single, and noticed an attractive female, that would have been willing to have unprotected sex with me, and to give birth to the reulting child,...

is it murder for me to not go ahead and get it on with her ?

( i am serious - obviously not as bad as abortion - but still murder right?)

Kevin says

Never, but you don't seem to grasp any point being made. I don't know why I
bother with you.

you said, in big bold letters, that expecting a law to do anythng is stupid (I paraphrase this time, but quoted above)
That is what I'm saying too.

We have laws against murder .... but the punisment is too passive. Start making murder very unpopular and sane criminal minded people will avoid it. Insane maniacs may not avoid commiting murder, and should be removed from earth asap.

A law against you owning any weapon that Lord Barry arms his Army with is wrong. Not balistics, not machines, but personally carried weapons and their full arrey of ammo. If they have a 50 cal machine gun, you should be able to have one too. If they have hand held anti-air rockets, you should be able to own them too. If you murder (murder 1) someone with those wepaons, or with your bare hands, then you should suffer the fate I detailed above.

Every fat middle age white male who rants about abortion should be forced to adopt a little crack baby.

Bap33 says

If they have a 50 cal machine gun, you should be able to have one too. If they have hand held anti-air rockets, you should be able to own them too.

Really ?

IS it the hate radio or or fox or perhaps the fundamentalist types you hang out with?

Maybe it's all of the above combined with "Lord Barry's" reelection that has caused you to become so unhinged at this point.

marcus says

Isn't male masturbation murder too, at least for those of us who have ever
masturbated when there was a woman willing to have unprotected sex with us ?

I don't think so. The sperm has a short life span, and never splits. Millions and billions of sperm are created and die and are flushed from your body through the waste system. So, if you pass a few through nocturnal emmisions, or through manual flogging, you are not stopping the splitting of a healthy human cell, or the beating of a health human heart - in the way abortion does. In my opinion.

I do know the Catholic Church has an issue with tossed seed, and it is kinda suggested to not abuse your body in the manner in the Bible ... I would imagine that is because of the way it makes you fixate on naughty things like the cleavage of the lady in the tent next door ... and sin could take place if you dwell on such things ... maybe that is their point? Not sure. I know that in todays productivly driven families the young are repressed well into their sexual maturity, and that has things kinda twisted. They are put on the pill to avoid getting prego so they can go to college and earn degrees, and when they do finally begin to reproduce it is 1 or 2 kids and they come at age 30ish. On the other hand is a non-productive driven culture that turns their girls out at 15 and they start breeding right away. They have 3 or 4 kids before they are 25. So the population shift (say, since Prop 187 was illegally stopped by a liberal court) has been dramatic due to these cultural differences. Not sure why I went into this ... I'm rambling? lol

I humbly suggest that the only young men that never abuse their bodies are those who were born without arms, and couldn't find an object to rub against in private that accomplished the task. If a teenaged fellow leaves it alone, he will wake up with a mess once a week anyways, so planned events make for less mess. I'm not sure this is backed by any religious belief, but they may have left that part out in Canon ... like they did with the book of Enoch.

Ahh, I just murdered 40-600 million potential babies.

Moderate Infidel says

Every fat middle age white male who rants about abortion should be forced to adopt a little crack baby.

First - every drug user should be made infertile.
Second - every welfare taker - all forms of welfare - should be made to give up their right to vote for the entire 12 months of any year they are on aide, and females should have implanted contriception that stays in place until a full year after the last time they accept aide.
And then what you suggest is a good idea. Ofcourse you must realize that it is white conservative Christians that do the majority of adoption, right? Liberals only take in foster kids so they can access some free money from "program" kids. Adoption costs people money, not like foster progams. I bet you knew that.