patrick.net

Dan8267 says

CL says

There's a lot more to power than the penis extender.

WTF?

Guns.

CL says

Dan8267 says

CL says

There's a lot more to power than the penis extender.

WTF?

Guns.

Oh, I was afraid this thread was taking a sudden turn to a different direction.

It's true that some of the appeal of guns is due to insecure men and women needing to feel empowered and guns give them a false sense of security.

However, the desire for guns is much more than that. Some people just like guns because they are fun to shoot. Of course, that's what first person shooter games are for. All the fun and no one gets hurt.

Dan8267 says

And that illustrates the fundamental difference between your worldview and mine. To you, tyranny is about numbers, how many people's rights are violated. To me, tyranny is about degree, how severely people's rights are violated.

I'm not saying it's perfect out here, but it's better than elsewhere. Struggle against oppression is something we'll always have government or no government. It's human nature for some humans to come kill and take what they want from others. Guns make private property and life easier to defend.

FortWayne says

Guns make private property and life easier to defend.

Oh, so now it's no longer about overthrowing tyrants; it's about keeping your "stuff". Your values just sort of blow in the wind, don't they?

Homeboy says

Oh, so now it's no longer about overthrowing tyrants; it's about keeping your "stuff". Your values just sort of blow in the wind, don't they?

Are you just off the boat or something kid? This is America, the land of personal property and rights. It is about both, we don't want dictators, and we want our life, liberty, and property protected. It's written right into the constitution in the 5th amendment.

All of our amendments are intertwined, if you take one away, you can take away all the others. Guns are the last resort.

FortWayne says

All of our amendments are intertwined, if you take one away, you can take away all the others. Guns are the last resort.

I know!

Amendment III

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

If they infringe on our speech, how will we protest the quartering!!!

"All of our amendments are intertwined, if you take one away, you can takeaway all the others. Guns are the last resort."

There is no amendment granting you the right to use a gun to protect your "stuff". Funny, the gun nuts scream about not taking away any part of the bill of rights, but then would happily take away the first clause of the second.

Be honest, you don't really give a shit about tyranny. You just want to have a gun because it makes it feel like your penis isn't quite so small.

CL says

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

If they infringe on our speech, how will we protest the quartering!!!

In many countries if you create a business that competes with someone who is politically connected government simply comes and takes your stuff. 5th amendment specifically does not allow government to come by and take your stuff without just compensation.

And 2nd amendment is there for you when government stops respecting your first, fifth, or any other.

FortWayne says

In many countries if you create a business that competes with someone who is politically connected government simply comes and takes your stuff. 5th amendment specifically does not allow government to come by and take your stuff without just compensation.

Who says they have to take your stuff to get what they want.

Dan8267 says

The only person who defied the state using any kind of physical force and had any kind of success -- and by success, I mean inflicting some damage before committing suicide -- was the great, late Marvin Heemeyer, the tank hero of Granby, Colorado.

This guy was so awesome, I'd have his babies if I could.

But even his success was minimal and obtained using a home built tank, not a gun.

FortWayne says

In many countries if you create a business that competes with someone who is politically connected government simply comes and takes your stuff. 5th amendment specifically does not allow government to come by and take your stuff without just compensation.

And 2nd amendment is there for you when government stops respecting your first, fifth, or any other.

But the 3rd doesn't rest on the 1st.

In any case, I don't think quartering is coming back. Maybe the 2nd should be considered vestigial like the 3rd.

They aren't really dependent on each other. Like Dan said, I think our collective conscience and sense of freedom, fairness and whatnot are probably what eliminated our fear of quartering.

CL says

They aren't really dependent on each other. Like Dan said, I think our collective conscience and sense of freedom, fairness and whatnot are probably what eliminated our fear of quartering.

They are. Freedom of speech is only good if government can't put you permanently in prison without trial. Business only can grow if government can't shut it down without reason. And bill of rights is a representation of that collective thought.

You change the bill of rights and you'll see dictatorship set in pretty quick, that train is never late in a morally corrupt society like ours. People always tend to give up freedoms for a little false sense of security. At least half the board on patrick.net would give up 2nd amendment.

And I remember when 5th amendment became a problem for CA government and their abuse of Eminent Domain. They would have provided no fair compensation if they could simply take your property and give it to their best crony. But they couldn't, because our constitution prevents that type of abuse.

This country needs more people like that Heemeyer fella. If we don't stand up to big government they'll ruin us all for their personal benefit.

I remember when Joe Stack made the news by flying a plane into IRS building. Inhumane, but he did make a point. Dan should remember that one too, I think we spoke about it back than.

FortWayne says

I'm not saying it's perfect out here, but it's better than elsewhere. Struggle against oppression is something we'll always have government or no government.

It is true that the struggle against oppression and tyranny is an eternal struggle. But that's exactly why it is important to acknowledge the tyranny that does occur in one's own country.

America isn't the worst offender by far, but it also isn't the freest country anymore either. There are plenty of countries like the Netherlands that are substantially more free than we are and that have considerably more government accountability than we do.

I hate the notion that we should just accept the atrocities that America commits simply because, "at least we're better than China". That's a low bar. We should push back whenever government steps too far, and over the past 70 years, we as a people have woefully failed to do that. The only question is how can we push back. I don't think rifles and militias are going to work because the power levels are so asymmetric. Otherwise, I'd had been the first person with a rifle in my hands when Gitmo first opened.

FortWayne says

And 2nd amendment is there for you when government stops respecting your first, fifth, or any other.

I would love to believe that, but I've never seen it. Here's what I want to see.

I want a pro-gun, pro-militia person or group of persons to video the cops while they are harassing someone. When the cops tell the people to stop videoing and move back (which they most certainly will), I want the person or group to say "hell no". When the cops threaten the group with arrest, I want the group to pull out their guns and place the cops under citizen arrest for the crime of false arrest and violating Constitutional rights. If that actually fucking works, I'll be 100% pro-gun. And by works, I mean the cops get convicted and no charges are pressed against anyone in the group, or if charges are pressed, the prosecutor pressing the charges is disbarred.

I would happily accept the argument that the Second Amendment protects us from the illegal actions of the police if I say this happen. And there's opportunities for this to happen every single freaking day.

FortWayne says

And I remember when 5th amendment became a problem for CA government and their abuse of Eminent Domain. They would have provided no fair compensation if they could simply take your property and give it to their best crony.

This is exactly why I don't support Eminent Domain. The government should give above market prices if ED is necessary. And anyone using ED for personal profits or to profit cronies should be arrested. Hell, citizens should be allowed to make such an arrest.

FortWayne says

This country needs more people like that Heemeyer fella. If we don't stand up to big government they'll ruin us all for their personal benefit.

I agree, but remember, he still died. Was there any other possible outcome? He didn't think so, which is why he sealed the exit to his tank. Could someone or a militia group do what Heemeyer did without being killed or imprisoned as a terrorist? Remember, Heemeyer made sure that no person was hurt and only the property of the guilty was damaged.

Dan8267 says

Otherwise, I'd had been the first person with a rifle in my hands when Gitmo first opened.

The way this country is heading. If they don't close Gitmo all of us might still get that opportunity. I just hope that time doesn't come.

Dan8267 says

I would happily accept the argument that the Second Amendment protects us from the illegal actions of the police if I say this happen. And there's opportunities for this to happen every single freaking day.

I bet it happens and happens a lot, and when it does it isn't reported same way on the news. News have to be politically correct, approved by the government and the state if they don't want trouble.

So even if someone defends themselves, will promptly be labeled a criminal or a murderer and sent off to prison or executed.

FortWayne says

This country needs more people like that Heemeyer fella. If we don't stand up to big government they'll ruin us all for their personal benefit.

We don't need more people rampaging around in home built tanks, but we do need more people who don't let the system abuse people.

Dan8267 says

Remember, Heemeyer made sure that no person was hurt and only the property of the guilty was damaged.

This is one of the big differences between Heemeyer and Joe Stack. Stack set out with the intention of killing people and was successful in killing one person.

Also, Joe Stack seems to have been his own worst enemy when it came to getting in the position he was in. Sure Stack had many valid complaints, but what should one expect to happen when they choose not to file tax returns. There are many, and better, examples of people driven to suicide by the IRS, but they don't cause enough damage for us to hear about them.

Here is one though:
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/07/us/irs-settles-a-widow-s-lawsuit-over-the-suicide-of-her-husband.html

leo707 says

We don't need more people rampaging around in home built tanks, but we do need more people who don't let the system abuse people

It isn't possible when people up top make all the decisions and enforce them selectively for their own benefit.

Joe Stack was a crazy man, and I'm not defending his method, but he sure had some valid points about our government being an old boys club.

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

I would happily accept the argument that the Second Amendment protects us from the illegal actions of the police if I say this happen. And there's opportunities for this to happen every single freaking day.

I bet it happens and happens a lot, and when it does it isn't reported same way on the news. News have to be politically correct, approved by the government and the state if they don't want trouble.

So even if someone defends themselves, will promptly be labeled a criminal or a murderer and sent off to prison or executed.

If people indeed are using guns to defend themselves from police "a lot", but still being sent to prison/executed then the Second Amendment does not matter. Ultimately their guns did not protect them from tyranny, and they could have done the same thing with an "illegal" gun.

leo707 says

If people indeed are using guns to defend themselves from police "a lot", but still being sent to prison/executed then the Second Amendment does not matter. Ultimately their guns did not protect them from tyranny, and they could have done the same thing with an "illegal" gun.

But Leo, that is like saying that guns didn't really protect Jews from Nazi's so they had no reason to have guns. And as you know Nazi's did make it illegal for Jews to have guns, only government officials had the right or those "with good cause approved by the government".

FortWayne says

But Leo, that is like saying that guns didn't really protect Jews from Nazi's so they had no reason to have guns. And as you know Nazi's did make it illegal for Jews to have guns, only government officials had the right or those "with good cause approved by the government".

It took a huge military effort to stop the Nazi movement. Nazi Germany rolled over armies with a lot more hardware and resources than rifles and pistols. There were very large and organized resistance movements all over occupied Europe. While helpful none of the resistance movements (or all combine) would have brought about an end to the Nazi machine. Without external help they all would have eventually been ground down.

I am not sure that the Jews being allowed to have guns, and thus increasing the size of the Jewish resistance, would have had that big of an effect on the outcome.

And this is all before smart bombs, drones and spy satellites.

FortWayne says

leo707 says

We don't need more people rampaging around in home built tanks, but we do need more people who don't let the system abuse people

It isn't possible when people up top make all the decisions and enforce them selectively for their own benefit.

Joe Stack was a crazy man, and I'm not defending his method, but he sure had some valid points about our government being an old boys club.

I more or less agree, but I don't see the Second Amendment ever being a solution to this problem.

FortWayne says

News have to be politically correct, approved by the government and the state if they don't want trouble.

Not RT News.

leo707 says

It took a huge military effort to stop the Nazi movement.

It took the combined forces of all the rest of the industrial world except Italy and Japan to stop the Nazis. Militias wouldn't have cut it.

leo707 says

I am not sure that the Jews being allowed to have guns, and thus increasing the size of the Jewish resistance, would have had that big of an effect on the outcome.

It would have made a difference. Would have made it harder for government to round Jews up by the thousand to send them to concentration camps. Stalinists' wouldn't be able to do their ethnic cleansing either if they didn't disarm civilian population. George Orwell wrote some real good papers and books about it at that time.

Human history is full of examples where morality fails and government disarms civilians followed by mass murder and mass oppression. I don't think we as a nation are that different, any nation can fall into that trap. Disarming civilian population is usually the first step, using police or military to enforce other oppressive decisions isn't hard where obedience is easy to obtain.

Dan8267 says

It took the combined forces of all the rest of the industrial world except Italy and Japan to stop the Nazis. Militias wouldn't have cut it.

Didn't Hitler loosen Gun restrictions? I think the whole premise is based on a lie.

Makes for cute bumper stickers though!

Gun restrictions were loosened before Hitler took power; the Nazis added new ones (mainly targeting jews).

FortWayne says

Human history is full of examples where morality fails and government disarms civilians followed by mass murder and mass oppression.

And history is also full of examples where governments disarmed civilians and did not then commit mass murder or "extraordinary" mass oppression.

FortWayne says

Would have made it harder for government to round Jews up by the thousand to send them to concentration camps. Stalinists' wouldn't be able to do their ethnic cleansing either if they didn't disarm civilian population.

The thing is that people don't know that they are being rounded up to go do a death camp. Do you really think that the Jews would have used their guns to resist going to what they thought was merely a prison camp? Sure it would have been a little harder later after people began to suspect what was going on, but I don't think that the increase (yes there was a Jewish resistance movement) it would have given to the Jewish resistance fighters would have effected the outcome. Yes, they would have been more helpful, but they probably would not have equaled the effectiveness of the largest resistance movements of WWII.

We rounded up Japanese during WWII and treated them pretty bad. Do you think that the Japanese Americans would have been better off if they had fought tooth and nail to avoid going to the camps? Did we disarm them before announcing the war relocation camps?

leo707 says

but I don't think that the increase (yes there was a Jewish resistance movement) it would have given to the Jewish resistance fighters would have effected the outcome.

Armed resistance makes that a lot harder. Consider the war in the middle east? Soviets lost a war in Afghanistan because of the well armed rebels. And today US is stuck there for years and years because a standing Army can't fight vs guerrilla warfare.

Any resistance is better than outright submissiveness.

You can't force thousand of well armed people against their will onto the train to a death camp.

leo707 says

We rounded up Japanese during WWII and treated them pretty bad. Do you think that the Japanese Americans would have been better off if they had fought tooth and nail to avoid going to the camps? Did we disarm them before announcing the war relocation camps?

During WW2 it was the Japanese, who says next election it won't be other Americans based on their party affiliation especially if economy gets really bad and government can lay blame onto liberals or conservatives or whomever is convenient...?

IDDQD says

CL says

Didn't Hitler loosen Gun restrictions?

Yes he did. But not for Jews.

1938 German Weapons Act. Jews were prohibited, Nazi party members exempted from regulations. The rest is pretty much a copy of current CA gun laws.

FortWayne says

You can't force thousand of well armed people against their will onto the train to a death camp.

Yeah, if you call it a "death camp." No one runing a death camp call it that. It is always a "war relocation camp", "refugee camp", etc.

FortWayne says

Armed resistance makes that a lot harder. Consider the war in the middle east? Soviets lost a war in Afghanistan because of the well armed rebels. And today US is stuck there for years and years because a standing Army can't fight vs guerrilla warfare.

Remind me again who was it that armed Osama Ben Laden when he was fighting the Soviets? Afghan fighters had the capability of destroying just about any piece of Soviet hardware.

Sure, and as soon as American Citizens can be well armed (you know stuff that would actually destroy/disable an Apache, Abrams tank, drone, stealth aircraft, etc.) then you may have an argument. These days a bunch of semi-automatic AR-15s, 12 gauges, and .38 specials are just not going to cut it. Also, the most militant Americans seem to want to make things easy and convenient for any oppressive government wanting to take their guns and they round themselves up in a nice convenient location.

FortWayne says

During WW2 it was the Japanese, who says next election it won't be other Americans based on their party affiliation especially if economy gets really bad and government can lay blame onto liberals or conservatives or whomever is convenient...?

So, do you think that the Japanese would have been better off fighting tooth and nail to resist being taken to war relocation camps?

Aside from the rhetoric you see on the interwebs,

There's this:

http://www.policymic.com/articles/22692/hitler-gun-control-facts-u-s-pro-gun-advocates-have-more-in-common-with-hitler-than-they-thinkIDDQD says

Yes he did. But not for Jews.

That speaks more to antisemitism than gun control, right?

"Hitler, then, came into power when this regulation was in effect … so, yes, Hitler, by default, did have a gun control policy — but only because it was forced on Germany.

Remember how the Hitler Youth were trained to march not with rifles but with shovels? This was a result of the Treaty of Versailles, not a Hitler policy."

http://propagandaprofessor.net/2011/09/26/the-myth-of-hitlers-gun-ban/

And the truth is that no gun law was passed in Germany in 1935. There was no need for one, since a gun registration program was already in effect in Germany; it was enacted in 1928, five years before Hitler’s ascendancy. But that law did not “outlaw” guns, it just restricted their possession to individuals who were considered law-abiding citizens, and who had a reason to own one. And there’s no reason to consider that law particularly significant, either; the NAZIs didn’t seize control of their own country with gunpowder. They used a much more potent weapon: propaganda.

Under their reign, Jews were prohibited from owning guns, just as they were prohibited from doing many things. And it has become an article of faith among the gun culture that had they been armed, the Holocaust would not have happened (that is, among those members of the gun culture who know that the Holocaust really did happen). But the concept of a handful of citizens armed with hunting rifles and Saturday night specials fending off an army is delusional hubris peculiar to gun addicts. On American soil, its most glorious day in the sun has been perhaps Waco. And we all know how well that turned out.

leo707 says

So, do you think that the Japanese would have been better off fighting tooth and nail to resist being taken to war relocation camps?

That's probably better asked of those who were affected by that. Grandparents do tend to pass on learned wisdom to their children and grand children. I can't really speak for anyone there as I did not live there at that time. In my view, resistance by Jews would have been better, at least they'd survive better than they did.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/01/hitler-stalin-gun-control

"But guns didn't play a particularly important part in any event," says Robert Spitzer, who chairs SUNY-Cortland's political science department and has extensively researched gun control politics. Gun ownership in Germany after World War I, even among Nazi Party members, was never widespread enough for a serious civilian resistance to the Nazis to have been anything more than a Tarantino revenge fantasy. If Jews had been better armed, Spitzer says, it would only have hastened their demise. Gun policy "wasn't the defining moment that marked the beginning of the end for Jewish people in Germany. It was because they were persecuted, were deprived of all of their rights, and they were a minority group."

It sounds as though the gun laws were in place and encouraged by anti-Nazis, rather than Nazis.

Why did the Hitler Youth practice with shovels?

As World War I drew to a close, the new Weimar Republic government banned nearly all private gun ownership to comply with the Treaty of Versailles and mandated that all guns and ammunition "be surrendered immediately." The law was loosened in 1928, and gun permits were granted to citizens "of undoubted reliability" (in the law's words) but not "persons who are itinerant like Gypsies." In 1938, under Nazi rule, gun laws became significantly more relaxed. Rifle and shotgun possession were deregulated, and gun access for hunters, Nazi Party members, and government officials was expanded. The legal age to own a gun was lowered. Jews, however, were prohibited from owning firearms and other dangerous weapons.

leo707 says

wanting to take their guns and they round themselves up in a nice convenient location.

That is hilarious!

From the Citadel link:

"Marxists, Socialists, Liberals and Establishment Republicans will likely find that life in our community is incompatible with their existing ideology and preferred lifestyles."

Is that Glenn Beck's Libertypendence park?

Nobody but nutters need apply!

CL says

Is that Glenn Beck's Libertypendence park?

No! It is another walled bastion of freedom that refuses entrance to anyone who does not have the same beliefs. It is a wonderful sign of the times when people think they need to wall themselves of from other Americans that have differing political opinions.

leo707 says

CL says

Is that Glenn Beck's Libertypendence park?

No! It is another walled bastion of freedom that refuses entrance to anyone who does not have the same beliefs. It is a wonderful sign of the times when people think they need to wall themselves of from other Americans that have differing political opinions.

So it's a Burbclave with HOA god-complex.

Nothing crazy here except the douchebag thinking it'll ever get built.

Vicente says

Nothing crazy here except the douchebag thinking it'll ever get built.

Yeah, unlikely that it will ever get built, and even less likely that Glenn Beck would actually live there.