patrick.net

Homeboy - you wouldnt last 3 weeks if we get taken over by a tyranny. you clearly dont want a democracy but rather be ruled over.

Upon exiting the Constitutional Convention. Benjamin Franklin was asked by a woman, "What kind of government have you given us?" Franklin responded with one of the most famous quotations in history, "A Republic if you can keep it."

Vicente says

Ruki & alts have gone silent all of a sudden. Weird.

Spooky!!!! .so what ... turn over some peoples pnat posts to the FBI because some
prick by the name of "Kevin" thinks they are dangerous.. well fuck him cause he cant handle the 1st amendment....

Sorry we dont have Stasi running the USA.... 2nd Amendment makes sure of that...

but you and Kevin would sure make good East Germans all right !!!

thomaswong.1986,
Since you've got the 1st & 2nd Amendments covered, I guess you will use your "arms" to protect America & the 4th Amendment from the TSA,NDAA,etc.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

HEY YOU says

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

write to your members in congress who represent you.. you did vote for him/her ?

thomaswong.1986 says

Vicente says

Ruki & alts have gone silent all of a sudden. Weird.

Spooky!!!! .so what ... turn over some peoples pnat posts to the FBI because some
prick by the name of "Kevin" thinks they are dangerous.. well fuck him cause he cant handle the 1st amendment....

Sorry we dont have Stasi running the USA.... 2nd Amendment makes sure of that...

but you and Kevin would sure make good East Germans all right !!!

What exactly is the first amendment according to you?? Ruki/Shrek was banned because he threatened violence. I distincly remember another right wing nut job from Phoenix who said he wished he could mow down all the lefties who attend a concert in CA and the world would be a better place with them dead or some such. Free speech, is free speech, but when you openly wish death on innocent people, just because of their political ideology-you are just a wannabe terrorist. Taking such people seriously is not stomping on first amendment.

Of course I forget, for the baggers, anything they don't believe in is unconstitutional.

elliemae says

Well, I'll admit that I do post from my basement.

Didn't Bearmarket post from his Mother's basement?

Okay so this is my question: "Neighbors of Mr. Dykes generally kept their distance, which he made easy. He frequently made violent threats to anyone who wandered onto his property, once even beating a neighbors’ dog to death with a metal pipe. He would sometimes sit watching and holding a rifle when young children played in a nearby yard. Late into the night he would dig in the backyard of his travel trailer or patrol his property with a flashlight and a long gun."

Why didn't anyone take action then??

And: If the bus driver was carrying.. Do you think it would've been the same, say, resulting in the death of a hero, saving children? He could've been a hero, and saved the country six days of authority-expenses.

Granted, I don't read every thread, but nobody on Pat.net particularly strikes me as a basher-of-dog's-brains.

Even if the dog was a moderate (i.e to a tea party fundy whacko that means extremist liberal socialist commie baby killer) ?

Or worse, what if the dog was a member of a union ?

Ceffer says

Does this mean I have to free all the slaves chained in my bunker or the FBI will hurt me?

Only if they're underage. Otherwise, we'll just assume they are willing participants.

CaptainShuddup says

Didn't Bearmarket post from his Mother's basement?

lol

marcus says

Even if the dog was a moderate (i.e to a tea party fundy whacko that means extremist liberal socialist commie baby killer) ?

Or worse, what if the dog was a member of a union ?

JodyChunder says

Granted, I don't read every thread, but nobody on Pat.net particularly strikes me as a basher-of-dog's-brains.

I don't know - there are some posters who get so angry I can see them popping a vessel or two. I'm thinking they take their anger out on the wife or dog.

elliemae says

I don't know - there are some posters who get so angry I can see them popping a vessel or two. I'm thinking they take their anger out on the wife or dog.

I just throw bottles at the wall...the neighbor's, not mine.

elliemae says

I don't know - there are some posters who get so angry I can see them popping a vessel or two. I'm thinking they take their anger out on the wife or dog.

See the problem is, they never had CRUNK_BEAR as teacher to mellow them out.

Homeboy says

How many tyrants did this country have since the second amendment? How many Putin's are in charge of USA? How often did Sadam Husseins ran our country?

Some people just don't appreciate what they have. Bunch of entitled brats who think that everything in this world is given to us, not earned.

FortWayne says

How many tyrants did this country have since the second amendment?

Two: Bush II and Obama.

Both of them have committed crimes against humanity such as torture, false imprisonment without trial or appeal, rape and sexual humiliation as punishment and interrogation methods, assassination of civilians without trial or oversight including children and U.S. citizens. Those are acts of tyranny. Not everyone in a society has to become a victim of tyranny for the tyranny to exist.

elliemae says

I don't know - there are some posters who get so angry I can see them popping a vessel or two. I'm thinking they take their anger out on the wife or dog.

In some cases, I think these are the same.

The kidnapper was exactly the militia / survivalist type that argues the Second Amendment lets us protect ourselves from tyranny.

Dan8267 says

The kidnapper was exactly the militia / survivalist type that argues the Second Amendment lets us protect ourselves from tyranny.

Let's assume guns can't protect us from tyranny,,,,what can?

Dan8267 says

Two: Bush II and Obama.

Both of them have committed crimes against humanity such as torture, false imprisonment without trial or appeal, rape and sexual humiliation as punishment and interrogation methods, assassination of civilians without trial or oversight including children and U.S. citizens. Those are acts of tyranny. Not everyone in a society has to become a victim of tyranny for the tyranny to exist.

Far cry from a local dictator that most countries had. Our government has become bigger, it's natural course that power concentrates in a single entity over time while liberty yields, but we have not had dictators. Nor Obama, nor Bush have the ability to come after US citizens in mass.

Events like "Killing Fields" or ethnic cleansing don't happen in US.

errc says

Let's assume guns can't protect us from tyranny,,,,what can?

The determination not to BECOME tyrants or enable it.

Tyrannies are not imposed by some malevolent external alien entity globbing onto the head of a leader, who then hypnotizes the populace. AFAIK every last one of them has required vigorous support of a large chunk of the population. You'll always find someone even today who says Mussolini was misunderstood, or that Pol Pot or Milosevic were doing unpleasant work that needed doing.

Dan8267 says

The kidnapper was exactly the militia / survivalist type that argues the Second Amendment lets us protect ourselves from tyranny.

One man does not speak for the millions of others. How many others do you see kidnapping someone into their bunkers?

Some of the school shooters were all young liberals, I don't see anyone saying all liberals are going around shooting kids up...

Vicente says

You'll always find someone even today who says Mussolini was misunderstood....

continuing the theme, many Russians revere Stalin, and Russia re-elected a president who sometimes defends Stalin (though other times criticizing). Americans heard all about the Pentagon Papers, then re-elected Nixon; just to prove that wasn't an aberration, they heard all about the Iraq War including Abu Ghraib, then re-elected W.

FortWayne says

How many tyrants did this country have since the second amendment? How many Putin's are in charge of USA? How often did Sadam Husseins ran our country?

Iraq had more guns than almost any country, per capita.

Lithuania has less than 1 per 100,000 citizens. Gun ownership therefore CAUSES tyranny, right?

errc says

Let's assume guns can't protect us from tyranny,,,,what can?

I'd love to get an answer to that question. I don't know the answer, yet. However, I know that the first step to getting that answer is asking the question. And that means accepting that brute force isn't the solution.

FortWayne says

Nor Obama, nor Bush have the ability to come after US citizens in mass.

And that illustrates the fundamental difference between your worldview and mine. To you, tyranny is about numbers, how many people's rights are violated. To me, tyranny is about degree, how severely people's rights are violated.

These two world views are completely different. But to the person who's being tortured, or to that person's family, the number of people isn't as important as the degree.

FortWayne says

Events like "Killing Fields" or ethnic cleansing don't happen in US.

Tell that to the Native Americans.

Also, tell that to the African Americans who were forced to undergo sterilization.

By this standard, every nation, past, present, and future, has a tyrannical government.

Got it.

Dan8267 says

To you, tyranny is about numbers, how many people's rights are violated

Is it tyranny if people choose it? Or aren't upset by it?

If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around....

Vicente says

AFAIK every last one of them has required vigorous support of a large chunk of the population.

Exactly. Tyranny is almost always caused by the majority accepting and even advocating the violation of rights of a minority, typically less than 10% of the population because that small of a minority can't fight back politically.

Even in Nazi Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union, or modern day China, the majority of people were not imprisoned . Even ancient Rome illustrated this principle.

FortWayne says

One man does not speak for the millions of others. How many others do you see kidnapping someone into their bunkers?

True, not all nuts are survivalist nuts and not all survivalists are nuts, but a far greater percentage of survivalists are nuts compared to the general population. They are a bit outside of the bell curve.

Kevin says

By this standard, every nation, past, present, and future, has a tyrannical government.

Got it.

I agree, government as we know it, is inherently tyrannical. I came to this realization from inside of a people cage at county prison, after peace officers illegally entered my property and took me into custody against my will, for possession of a small bag of dried plant matter from my garden,,,,

Land of the free, imagine that!

CL says

FortWayne says

How many tyrants did this country have since the second amendment? How many Putin's are in charge of USA? How often did Sadam Husseins ran our country?

Iraq had more guns than almost any country, per capita.

Lithuania has less than 1 per 100,000 citizens. Gun ownership therefore CAUSES tyranny, right?

Point taken. I don't think high gun ownership makes tyranny more or less likely or severe. Nor do I think gun ownership makes a society at large safer or less safe. There does not seem to be any measurable correlation one way or the other when comparing all the nation states of the world.

However, I do think that there is a strong correlation and causality between culture and both safety and tyranny. Wherever human life is valued and economic well being is equitable (read high wages for labor, relatively even distribution of wealth), violence and tyranny are less common and less accepted. Where labor and life are cheap, violence and tyranny are common and people think there is no alternative.

Kevin says

By this standard, every nation, past, present, and future, has a tyrannical government.

Got it.

Not even close. Not even for the past. I sure as hell hope not for the future.

CL says

Dan8267 says

To you, tyranny is about numbers, how many people's rights are violated

Is it tyranny if people choose it? Or aren't upset by it?

If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around....

If a single person doesn't choose to be
- gang raped by police
- tortured
- imprisoned without charges
- assassinated
but is, then yes, it's tyranny.

Tyranny is always a crime against an individual. How many individuals is less important than the fact that it happens and those responsible are not held accountable.

Dan8267 says

Kevin says

By this standard, every nation, past, present, and future, has a tyrannical government.

Got it.

Not even close. Not even for the past. I sure as hell hope not for the future.

Name one government that hasn't presided over a period where some group was not treated according to the conditions mentioned in your original criteria. You definitely can't count any European country, the US, any asian country, any south american country, australia, canada, mexico, cuba, the middle east, or most of africa.

Either tyranny needs a higher standard to be classified as such, or every government is tyrannical.

Dan8267 says

Wherever human life is valued and economic well being is equitable (read high wages for labor, relatively even distribution of wealth), violence and tyranny are less common and less accepted. Where labor and life are cheap, violence and tyranny are common and people think there is no alternative.

I think this is an excellent point. There's a lot more to power than the penis extender. There is wealth, justice, fairness, equality. These seemingly esoteric concepts would be more likely to predict tyranny than gun ownership.Dan8267 says

If a single person doesn't choose to be

- gang raped by police

- tortured

- imprisoned without charges

- assassinated

but is, then yes, it's tyranny.

Speaking of esoteric, I was just getting all Zen on the concept. Since tyranny necessarily requires that someone opposes, if no one opposes, is it still tyranny?

Government intrusion to stop "terrorism" gets a free pass. If one objects, is it then tyranny or democracy? Who defines what's "too far"?

We have rational restrictions on our rights...no yelling "Movie!" in a crowded firehouse and all that. If one thinks the right is absolute and it is denied by our courts, is that tyranny?

Or is it limited to bodily violations?

Kevin says

Name one government that hasn't presided over a period where some group was not treated according to the conditions mentioned in your original criteria. You definitely can't count any European country, the US, any asian country, any south american country, australia, canada, mexico, cuba, the middle east, or most of africa.

No shit if we include the Dark Ages. But just because Denmark was a tyrannical kingdom in the Middle Ages, doesn't mean the modern government is tyrannical.

But here's the most important point. You think that tyranny is some kind of binary condition. Either a country is absolute tyranny or it's not tyranny at all. I believe that tyranny, like all evils, can be throttled. There are degrees of tyranny just like there are degrees of slavery, degrees of genocide, degrees of rape, even degrees of murder.

The United States certainly has more tyranny in it than we should tolerate. If a violent uprising had a chance of success -- which it certainly doesn't -- then there is already sufficient cause to uprise and overthrow all the tyrants (president, Congress, lobbyists) from power and force a rewriting of the Constitution. However, such an uprising is doomed to fail no matter what the pro-gun group says about guns protecting us from tyranny.

CL says

There's a lot more to power than the penis extender.

WTF?