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Poll: Strong support for some undocumented residents becoming citizens
invite response
2013 Feb 22, 1:26am 17,959 views 102 comments
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the real question is why our government turns its back and allows illegal aliens? that is where the problem lies is our failure of a government. I am rapidly losing faith in whats left of this country. they have done nothing for years and now try to say its to late to do anything. why?
well lucky for us the Mexican Government has put up a southern borders fence manned by armed troops to stop illegal trespassing onto their territory...
they have also instituted voter ID cards...
they also managed to get foreign investments to build factories to build stuff to sell
to the rest of the world increasing incomes for their people....
Govt dont seem to be concerned over global warming either...
Sounds like they are doing some things right as we just sit there listening to some
Liberals about human rights, global warming... and how to go Vegan!
Key Findings
Illegal immigration costs U.S. taxpayers about $113 billion a year at the federal, state and local level. The bulk of the costs — some $84 billion — are absorbed by state and local governments.
The annual outlay that illegal aliens cost U.S. taxpayers is an average amount per native-headed household of $1,117. The fiscal impact per household varies considerably because the greatest share of the burden falls on state and local taxpayers whose burden depends on the size of the illegal alien population in that locality
Education for the children of illegal aliens constitutes the single largest cost to taxpayers, at an annual price tag of nearly $52 billion. Nearly all of those costs are absorbed by state and local governments.
http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-u-s-taxpayers
lostand confused
2013 Feb 22, 8:15pm
sorry charlie.. not a Tea Party member! but have best wishes for them.
again.. so some research before spouting off the dead end...
The same what is true with US citizens who have a birth overseas.. the child
is citizen of the US. It need not be considered soveriegn territory.
has been true since 1790...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790
"the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea,
or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born
Citizens".
it is still true today...
You of all people should be asking someone to do some research. Considering you spout rubbish and stick to it all costs. What part of being born in the US making you a US citizen do you not get. Just because you have a belief, does not make it fact. Reasearch before posting gibberish. Why does Mexico giving someone citizenship affect what happens to a US citizen here? They are a US citizen and if Mexico gives them citizenship-then they are a dual citizen. Lets see what gibberish you come up with now to support your crazy beliefs-you may not be a teabagger-but you act like one that has a sign saying-get the gubmnt off my medicare.thomaswong.1986 says
actually not the case until 1937 regarding citizenship. it wasnt sovereign
territory..perhaps not even the Philippine bases were either.
In the land of fruits and nuts as usual. You know this is 2013-since 1937 many things have happened, Nazism was defeated and so was Hitler. A new nation called Israel was born, the Soviet Union collapsed, man landed on the moon , we now have satellites up in the sky , the Germany split and merged again and we even dropped an atomic bomb on Japan.
Illegal immigration costs U.S. taxpayers about $113 billion a year at the federal, state and local level. The bulk of the costs — some $84 billion — are absorbed by state and local governments.
The solution to government waste is not to introduce more government waste. What you are suggesting is essentially equivalent to: because the government wastes a lot of money overpaying road building, let's waste more money banning cars!
The annual outlay that illegal aliens cost U.S. taxpayers is an average amount per native-headed household of $1,117. The fiscal impact per household varies considerably because the greatest share of the burden falls on state and local taxpayers whose burden depends on the size of the illegal alien population in that locality
The bulk of that money is paid to American citizens who hold government jobs. The "illegal aliens" are just an excuse for such transfers.
Education for the children of illegal aliens constitutes the single largest cost to taxpayers, at an annual price tag of nearly $52 billion. Nearly all of those costs are absorbed by state and local governments.
In other words, it's Americans paying Americans in an inefficient educational monopoly. Do you actually believe any of the students in the public school system is getting the money's worth in brainwashing?
well lucky for us the Mexican Government has put up a southern borders fence manned by armed troops to stop illegal trespassing onto their territory...
they have also instituted voter ID cards...
If you are so fond of Mexican government policies like that, what exactly are you afraid of Mexican being "unAmerican" again?
what exactly are you afraid of Mexican being "unAmerican" again?
at what point am i being afraid... perhaps the question should be
Since when did the liberals in the US began re-writing both the US and Mexican
Constitution to suite their world view or should I say "fantasy" ? And by what authority do they have to do so ?
What part of being born in the US making you a US citizen do you not get. Just because you have a belief, does not make it fact. Reasearch before posting gibberish. Why does Mexico giving someone citizenship affect what happens to a US citizen here? They are a US citizen and if Mexico gives them citizenship-then they are a dual citizen.
The so called facts you provide are linked to individuals who immigrated to the US legally.
The question that remains is for those who are NOT here legally...
DO NOT TRY TO CONFUSE people with legal immigrants vs illegal aliens who are
citizens of foreign nations.. as are their offspring.. regardless if they were born here.
lostand confused
2013 Feb 23, 10:59am
DO NOT TRY TO CONFUSE people with legal immigrants vs illegal aliens who are
citizens of foreign nations.. as are their offspring.. regardless if they
were born here.
You are entitled to your opinion , but not your facts.
at what point am i being afraid... perhaps the question should be
Since when did the liberals in the US began re-writing both the US and Mexican
Constitution to suite their world view or should I say "fantasy" ? And by what authority do they have to do so ?
I have no idea what the Mexican constitution says, but in the US Constitution, there is no legal authority granted to federal government for impeding individual mobility. Therefore the natural right of mobility is reserved to the individual according to the 9th Amendment.
There had been no legal restriction against immigration in the US until the late 19th century communistic labor union movement.
You are entitled to your opinion , but not your facts.
facts are based on legal immigrants who come to the USA...
you are misrepresenting those facts to include "foreign citizens" and calling them
immigrants when they legally are not...
trespassing or visitors....
a person, who enters you home without permission is a "illegal trespassing" since
he had no authority to enter into your property without your explicit instructions.
in YOUR SCREWED UP WORLD VIEW .. they are visitors, and therefore committed
no violation or crime. In fact, you as a property owner have no right to throw them out of
your own property.
lostand confused
2013 Feb 23, 11:13am
you are misrepresenting those facts to include "foreign citizens" and calling
them
immigrants when they legally are not...
Where have I called them immigrants?
in YOUR SCREWED UP WORLD VIEW .. they are visitors, and therefore committed
no violation or crime. In fact, you as a property owner have no right to
throw them out of
your own property.
Where have I said that- you hearing voices again??
I have no idea what the Mexican constitution says, but in the US Constitution, there is no legal authority granted to federal government for impeding individual mobility. Therefore the natural right of mobility is reserved to the individual according to the 9th Amendment.
US Constitution applies to US citizens.. not foreign citizens. Where does the rights of US citizens in the Constitution apply to foreign citizens.
Where have I said that- you hearing voices again??
so much for the idiotic socialist one world view...
a person, who enters you home without permission is a "illegal trespassing" since
he had no authority to enter into your property without your explicit instructions.
in YOUR SCREWED UP WORLD VIEW .. they are visitors, and therefore committed
no violation or crime. In fact, you as a property owner have no right to throw them out of
your own property.
It is actually a very collectivist approach to view a country's land as "collectively owned" instead of "un-owned" altogether. Do you think the town plumbers should be able to form a union of their own and make the town pass a law that bans all town residents from contracting out-of-town plumbers? Foreigners in this country are not automatically trespassers; they are usually the guests, business associates or counter-parties of citizens in this country . . . just like out-of-town plumbers are usually in town to do business with residents, and in-town plumbers have no right to strip fellow residents of that freedom of association on reasons of alleged "collective ownership" of the town.
US Constitution applies to US citizens.. not foreign citizens. Where does the rights of US citizens in the Constitution apply to foreign citizens.
You are very wrong on this one. The Constitution is the law of the land; i.e. applies to all human beings on this land.
lostand confused
2013 Feb 23, 11:31am
Where have I said that- you hearing voices again??
so much for the idiotic socialist one world view...
Something really wrong with your perception- too much projection maybe?
Bap33
2013 Feb 23, 12:34pm
at what point am i being afraid... perhaps the question should be
Since when did the liberals in the US began re-writing both the US and Mexican
Constitution to suite their world view or should I say "fantasy" ? And by what authority do they have to do so ?
I have no idea what the Mexican constitution says, but in the US Constitution, there is no legal authority granted to federal government for impeding individual mobility. Therefore the natural right of mobility is reserved to the individual according to the 9th Amendment.
There had been no legal restriction against immigration in the US until the late 19th century communistic labor union movement.
if there were no welfare state, and no affirmitive action, then there would be no reason to worry about illegal invaders as they would either become part of America or they would go back home. But, since taxpayers are forced to subsidize the hyper-breeding and cradle to grave needs of every invader since 1984, then the whole need to close borders came to lite. Secure borders , wow, what a novel idea.
What year did the SS ID number system get going? How long after that were adult males held accountable to have ID on their person while in public?
Only in some limited exceptions, and some of those would not even stand up today, have foreigners been deemed to have less rights than citizens under the constitution.
In most cases, the constitution says "person" not citizen, so there is no distinction.
Wow! and this is how far the lefties would go to pervert the US Constitution....you even provided a link to a jackass who believes foreign terrorists have constitutional citizen rights..
what a twisted mind you have Roberto... non-citizens have no rights.. as in no voting rights as you might recall, even as shown in the constitution... or is that voter suppression as you lefties like to call it.
if there were no welfare state, and no affirmitive action, then there would be no reason to worry about illegal invaders as they would either become part of America or they would go back home. But, since taxpayers are forced to subsidize the hyper-breeding and cradle to grave needs of every invader since 1984, then the whole need to close borders came to lite. Secure borders , wow, what a novel idea.
The way to reduce an over-burdening bureaucratic monopoly is not to introduce another layer of bureaucrats on top of it, but to roll back the existing ones.
As for "hyper-breeding" and "cradle to grave needs," if such traits are genetically selectable from generation to generation, how little time do you think it will take for our native population to affirm those traits under the perverse selective pressure of a welfare state? The sooner such a system is bankrupted under its own weight the better.
what a twisted mind you have Roberto... non-citizens have no rights.. as in no voting rights as you might recall, even as shown in the constitution... or is that voter suppression as you lefties like to call it.
Voting right is very different from the natural rights that come with being born as human. Voting rights are denied to people under voting age, but the individual person certainly has the same passive rights and liberty even before voting age.
but the individual person certainly has the same passive rights and liberty
bahhaahaha... they have their own constitution... written by their own Government as it applies to their own citizens, where ever they many reside.
bahhaahaha... they have their own constitution... written by their own Government as it applies to their own citizens, where ever they many reside.
As the State Department would remind you when you travel overseas: the US Constitution does not travel with you to overseas countries. Likewise, when the foreigner steps on the US soil, it is the US Constitution that applies.
the supreme court has ruled a number of times about rights of non citizens.
immigrants... not illegal aliens. Once again you keep ignoring the difference.
Had Illegal aliens had any rights... "habeas corpus, to inheritance, to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." would they not they have due process to deportation.. but they have no rights on our soil.. and therefore shipped back home country.
where is your habeas corpus now ?
Why is it that US business/industries are prohibited from hiring illegal aliens ?
Therefore illegal aliens are not allowed to have US jobs (life liberty and pursuit of happiness).
As the State Department would remind you when you travel overseas: the US Constitution does not travel with you to overseas countries.
remind me again what the IRS and the courts may say about income generated overseas ?
isnt it taxable under US laws ? its gets dicey i admit with contract-commerce laws....
you are rather remarkably dense.
and your loyalty/allegiance to this nation is very questionable to say the least...
JodyChunder
2013 Feb 23, 4:08pm
It's easy to address this matter from a binary sense -- documented/undocumented...legal/illegal...it's easy right up until you discover a dear friend of yours has overstayed his work visa because he genuinely has no home to go back to, and his only life - as marginal as it might seem by most American standards - is right here. A friend who's devotion to, and fascination with all things America are so intense they border on the embarrassing; a friend who can discuss difficult concepts in his second language where a lot of Americans have trouble discerning left from right.
In fact, it's probably too easy.
MsBennet
2013 Feb 24, 12:29am
One thing if for sure, when a lot of the people are made "legal" they will be eligible to receive fed/state benefits, because so many have no real job skills. I meet quite a few illegals because of my job, and a lot of them speak no English and some don't even know how to spell their last name -- in their OWN language, much less English I am talking Hispanic, of course. And many will be incapable of learning English. How could an illiterate 50 year old learn English? Come on.
Anyway, expect the welfare rolls/ benefits to increase.
I am sure there are plenty of model citizens who will do well, but there are many, many with third-world education and skills who cannot keep up with a modern society. They will need help.
lostand confused
2013 Feb 24, 1:07am
Not about the legal , illegal issue. But when I was in the midwest, a colleague partnered with a friend to start an ethnic restaurant. Now this was not a fine dining restaurant and not a place where you receive tips. Their biggest problem-inability to find workers who would stick. They initially wanted to run payroll and were willing to pay a buck more than minimum wage -32 hrs a week min with upto 40 hrs a week. But none came around that were willing to stay a while. Eventually the guy's wife and the partner's inlaws all chipped in for the labor. The guy would go tend the reatuarant too after his software job.
I was just surprised-they couldn't even find anyone to work under the table and this was a rather high unemployment area. I think our govt has swung too far on the benefits and welfare pendulum.
I'm not sure if this is the case, but if they were made into citizens, wouldn't they them be required to pay taxes? Wouldn't it be easier to tax their earnings and remittances home if they were actual citizens vs being in the country in an undocumented capacity?
As the State Department would remind you when you travel overseas: the US Constitution does not travel with you to overseas countries.
remind me again what the IRS and the courts may say about income generated overseas ?
isnt it taxable under US laws ? its gets dicey i admit with contract-commerce laws....
Not sure how this relates to the discussion. Being taxed by the IRS is not exactly a natural born right or constitutionally protected right of any individual. If given a choice, the individual probably prefers not to be taxed.
Bap33
2013 Feb 24, 11:31am
@roberto,
How would you respond to those who came here legally, and their exspense and sacrafice? Do they have a greivance?
Should mexicans get a break because they refuse to follow the law in the largest numbers? Are there any other laws that mexicans should not have to follow?
What about those who have been sent back and paid many times over to sneak back in?
Does anyone recall when i kept trying to bring up how waiting in line was not a law, but is a sign of a healthy society? Legal immigration is waiting in line. Illegal immigration is an invasion. Right?
it would be the single largest forced exodus of a group of people in history. 12 million leaving for the border would be a humanitarian crisis on the order of something never seen in the world before: families ripped apart. Kids taken back to Mexico that don't even have enough Spanish to survive there
so what do you call the movement of people crossing into US border but an Exodus..
families left behind, some are hostages as workers send money back home as ransom.
after all.. the smugglers slap a life long loan to be paid off ... and how is that not an
atrocity on the part of Mexican govt.
Government projections on social security, Medicaid/MediCal, Medicare do not factor in illegals becoming citizens. We are broke by the way. Many people argue that by making people legal they will start paying into the system and everyone will benefit. The truth is many are all ready paying (small amount per person though) into the system but cannot legally take advantage of the aforementioned programs. This is fair since they break our laws by commiting identity theft by using other peoples social security numbers and fake IDs to obtain employment. They have children who are legal but the rest of us have to pay higher taxes for their education and healthcare. What will happen in the future is Social Security and Medicare will become Means tested and these people will receive more than you because they need it more. Their kids go to college free because they are poor and yours take out student loans. And they will compete with your children for space
at the same colleges. Overcrowding etc... You pay huge health insurance premiums they get Medicaid/MediCal. Essentially middle America is being robbed. why aren't people protesting in the streets about this injustice? The rich are rich and will not suffer. Their kids can go to private school. They will always receive good healthcare. It's the middle who are getting screwed.
despite what people say it is not about race as much as it is about resources. In the end this cheap illegal labor was not so cheap. Had the government protected our borders and upheld our laws we would have found ways to do the work "they" say Americans won't do. If we could put a man on the moon we could have figured out how to harvest lettuce more efficiently.
Bap33
2013 Feb 26, 12:01am
@roberto, thanks for responding.
I disagree with your position of selective law enforcement. Those earlier amd present immigrants that made big sacrafices to come here legally result in a society with a bond - for lack of a better term. They gave up all they had, paid every price, stood in every line, road a boat for months, had to find sponsors to be their ward, and they recieved ZERO welfare. If they got sick, sponsor paid, if they got in trouble sponsor paid and they went home. Most of my relatives that immigrated worked as slaves to pay off the debt of immigration. Of course the immigrants that were refugees, like the Arminian, Irish, Cuban, ect, all came here with a bond too, they did not have any life left where they were and they found safety here. They wanted to be Americans - 100%. Legal immigrants want to be Americans - 100%. On the 4th of July you will find an American flag flying at an American's house. On the 5th of May, or 16th of Sep, you will not find any flag flying at an American's house to mark those dates. No legal immigrant flys any flag the same size or hight as the American flag - they RESPECT and EMBRACE the culture, the system, the history, and the freedoms and liberty that America stands for. You will find an Azorian flag at my house, right under the American flag, and about 2/3 the size. You will not find a California flag as I removed mine and put it away after Prop 187 was blocked. That was my last straw - 1994.
The position of, "well, so much wrong has gone on for so long, and so many people are involved, there is no reason to enforce the law" sounds alot like the way the dope smokers pushed for their law. Right? I just find that interesting.
When you are going down the freeway at 3 miles over the speedlimit, and you get passed by a person speeding even more, you have less worry about getting stopped at that moment. Why is that? Because you expect the civil laws of speeding to be applied in a just manner. You naturally have an understanding that the reason for the speeding laws would also be based on some degree. They are there to help make for a safe and orderly system of passage - with all driving resulting in the same function of moving people/things over distance. But, if everyone else is going 90, they have an advantage over you at 65, as they get their people and things moved faster. They are risking getting a ticket for the gain of saved time. You are respecting the risk and choosing to avoid a ticket. They are also creating more danger, using more resources, demanding more CHP action -- while you do none of the above and sacrafice your time to follow the rules/laws, helping the system work properly. If you drove along and watched as all of the speeders in yellow Honda's were passing by at 95, right past the CHP next to you that is going 65 - watching you like a hawk, and you watched the CHP pull over all blue Toyota's that were going 67 in a 65, would you still feel that the blue Toyota crowd has no grievance? Would you have a greivance?
I submit to you that the strong fabric that made up the greatest generation was built with peoples that sacraficed everything to be Americans. The mexicans living in California at that time could gain citizenship by serving, but if you know your history, you will know what happened in San Diego and LosAngels between service men and the zoot suiters that refused service, but enjoyed night life with the ladies. Compair that to the service records of American Indians, Irish immigrants, Italian immigrants, Germans, Ruskies, Poles, Sweeds, Jews, the list goes for miles of first generation immigrants and refugees that did not even think twice about taking up arms - many against their home country - in the name of the freedom and liberty found under the American flag.
I (kinda) disagree with the position of field work being something Americans will not do. Americans have lost the "hunger" - my mexican brothers are some hard working dudes and they stay "hungery". I stay hungery too, so I relate well to their position. They are willing to do whatever it takes to earn a buck - some refuse to do illegal activity, some perfect it - but they hugery for a buck - and I get that. I feel the welfare system, the minimum wage, drug use, and 24 hour entertainment are a large part of what has removed the work desire from many Americans - they are not hungery. If each prego teen had to tell who the dad was in order to get the welfare they get, and those daddys were put to work - forced if needed - in the fields, the need for farm labor goes down a bit, while the willingnes to breed as a teen goes down too - a win win for tax payers.
At any rate, a fully secure border is not a bad idea. Do that first, and then any other changes will make sense. I happen to think we could put many people (legal and not) to work on a large public project of building a huge wall on the border, and 3 or 4 huge prisons along the border, and ofcourse the support systems and towns that would spring up too. This would be a great "transition" system, and would fill some needed voids. The prisons could be where we send illegal mexicans now held in prisons. It's a good start.
FortWayne
2013 Feb 26, 1:01am
Not from me. Legalizing illegals is a magnet for more of them to come. That grows the labor pool, reduces wages, and hurts the economy.
We can't turn into a welfare state for South America.
Not from me. Legalizing illegals is a magnet for more of them to come. That grows the labor pool, reduces wages, and hurts the economy.
Growing the labor pool is a good thing. Do we really want people to work till they are 75 before retirement or having more youthful people entering the labor force to support people retiring at 65? Do you want the same loaf of bread at $3 or priced at $30? If the former, someone has to work to make it happen.
We can't turn into a welfare state for South America.
For starters, the new immigrants having to get themselves here means the cradle part is not required from the Welfare State. The Welfare State is its own problem; much of it shouldn't exist for either immigrants or native borns. The real beneficiary of the Welfare State are not the supposed recipients, but the bureaucrats and other government sponsored monopolies.
You naturally have an understanding that the reason for the speeding laws would also be based on some degree. They are there to help make for a safe and orderly system of passage - with all driving resulting in the same function of moving people/things over distance. But, if everyone else is going 90, they have an advantage over you at 65, as they get their people and things moved faster. They are risking getting a ticket for the gain of saved time. You are respecting the risk and choosing to avoid a ticket. They are also creating more danger, using more resources, demanding more CHP action -- while you do none of the above and sacrafice your time to follow the rules/laws, helping the system work properly.
Do you actually believe that? Do you actually think speed limit is there for public safety? as opposed to revenue generation?
Never mind asking you about your support for slave return laws, do you turn yourself in when you order something from Amazon and don't pay CA sales/use tax voluntarily? Do you do the same when you drive from Nevada or Oregon into CA with goods purchased in these other states?
I suppose if you were a woman in Africa, you'd support the genital mutilation of young girls, just because you had to endure it when you were young.
Talk about being a "clover."
I get that. I feel the welfare system, the minimum wage, drug use, and 24 hour entertainment are a large part of what has removed the work desire from many Americans - they are not hungery.
Agree so far.
If each prego teen had to tell who the dad was in order to get the welfare they get, and those daddys were put to work - forced if needed - in the fields, the need for farm labor goes down a bit, while the willingnes to breed as a teen goes down too - a win win for tax payers.
I can't believe some people can openly advocate slave labor in this day and age. The solution to the "not hungry enough" problem is not to have more bureaucrats telling the kids what to do. Whatever the kid can produce in the field wouldn't even be able to pay for the salary of bureaucrat wielding the whip, never mind paying for the kid's own food or housing. The real solution would be a removing the welfare state and lowering taxes, so that the youths have more job opportunities instead of wasting their time getting stoned, drunk and pregnant (before they are ready to raise a family).
so what do you call the movement of people crossing into US border but an Exodus..
People exercising voluntary mobility.
families left behind, some are hostages as workers send money back home as ransom.
after all.. the smugglers slap a life long loan to be paid off ... and how is that not an
atrocity on the part of Mexican govt.
That's the result of our irrational immigration laws . . . just like War on Drugs and War on Alcohol create criminality associated with the transportation and distribution of whatever is banned.
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