patrick.net

If you believe abortion is murder, then you must be willing to have the aborting mother executed for first degree manslaughter. If not, then you are a hypocrit. You can't have it without both. You cannot be dinning at an Ethics Buffet where you get to pick and choose only part of your equation.
Or if you are a Jeffersonian and believe that mothers have more rights than breeding livestock, then that decision is between the mother, her doctor, and her God.

FortWayne says

Yes, because right to life comes before the right to abortion. Life is fundamentally more important.

You have a right to live, angry neighbor next door does not have a right to kill you.

except if you are from iraq, afganistan, pakistan, palestine, siria or any one of more than a hundred countries where "THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOM” let’s not forget all the usa citizens that are gunned down by our obscenely armed cops in our streets because they are guilty of walking while being black, or brown, or transex or whatever.

thomaswong.1986 says

Dan8267 says

The fact that we have not outlawed, on the international level, the killing of apes, dolphins, and whales for any purpose is a direct result of this "soul" lie. Sentient beings on our planet right now are being killed in horrifically painful ways because people who believe that a god create humans as special creatures with souls also believe that all other animal life has no intrinsic value and can be morally and ethically slaughtered for mere human convenience.

You really do Bullshit alot dont you..Dan.. Something you provide in large quantities....

Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything."

Once again, Tommy, your feeble little mind completely misses the point. Yet, in your ignorance, you demonstrate the point quite ironically.

The point was that other ape species, which are clearly sentient beings, are treated as if their lives are worthless because of the soul lie. The lie of the soul has very material, grave, and evil consequences.

FortWayne says

We shouldn't. This is why we have evolution, nature gave us all the tools to evolve. Human meddling into it would be a bad thing in my view because it would be defiled with profit seeking and control.

Whether or not we should create human life from scratch is irrelevant to the thought experiment. The fact that we can, even in principle, is enough to demonstrate the plot holes in the "soul" mythology.

FortWayne says

All living things have a soul

Including maggots? Bacteria? Biological viruses? Computer viruses?

Even if we accept that the premise that all maggots go to heaven, all you've accomplished is pushing the question from "do humans and thus fertilize eggs have souls" to "what constitutes 'living' and why is 'living' valuable"? I certainly do not value the life of an HIV viron.

But it is self-awareness, not biochemical processes, that make humans and other creatures valuable in of themselves. Or as a great philosopher once put it...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/XMdR9iAflKo

Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter.

KarlRoveIsScum says

marcus says

KarlRoveIsScum says

YOU Disgusting piece of SHIT!

Forthood is a real nasty piece of work

Why do you have to be that extreme ? I

It is not me that is extreme, Forthood has the brain damage.

Forthood is a disgusting piece of shit.

KarlRoveIsScum is a racist troll. His opinion has no weight.

FortWayne is not a troll. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't make that person bad, no matter how strong your opinion.

KarlRoveIsScum says

Dan, the true disingenuous tea partier in you is coming through.

Yes, I'm the first atheistic Tea Partier calling for a 90% cutting in warfare, the prosecution of the Bush administration, and raising taxes on the richest 1%. You know, core tea party issues.

This is exactly why KarlRoveIsScum's opinions don't mean jack diddly shit. They come from pure ignorance.

What's really bad is that trolls like Karl disrupt civilized debates like the one that Fort and I were having over whether or not "souls" provide a rational legal basis for outlawing abortion.

Dan8267 says

Yes, I'm the first atheistic Tea Partier calling for a 90% cutting in warfare, the prosecution of the Bush administration, and raising taxes on the richest 1%. You know, core tea party issues.

Actually with the exception of atheism and a split in raising taxes on the 1%, the other 2 points you stated are core tea party issues, or at least were until it got infested by the rusty wing of republicans trying to ride the wave and compromise its goals. There was a time where tea party and occupy where fairly close.

KarlRoveIsScum says

you do not attain a soul at contraception

Well you certainly wouldn't obtain one under this condition!

By the way, people don't have souls, they are souls. In older times, people would speak correctly when they said "he's such a good soul" or "that poor soul".

KarlRoveIsScum says

Dan8267 says

Yes, I'm the first atheistic Tea Partier

I know, your a contradiction

Another way to look at it is that reality contradicts what you write.

KarlRoveIsScum says

Go fuck yourself

Oh, I wish I could. I've been told many times that I am a wonderful and skillful lover.

KarlRoveIsScum says

Needless to say you two fools cannot come to a conclusion.

Like all simple minds, you miss the point. The conclusion is secondary. What really matters is the thought process.

KarlRoveIsScum says

Seriously, shut the fuck up! Idiots.

Feel free to put us on ignore, or leave Patrick.net forever. You have not contributed constructively to any conversation. You will not be missed.

mell says

Actually with the exception of atheism and a split in raising taxes on the 1%, the other 2 points you stated are core tea party issues, or at least were until it got infested by the rusty wing of republicans trying to ride the wave and compromise its goals. There was a time where tea party and occupy where fairly close.

The Tea Party that idiot Karl talks of is the one fabricated by Fox News. They have always been pro-warfare and pro-Bush.

When given the chance to cut warfare spending, which is the vast majority of discretionary spending, the elected Tea Party representatives chose to save warfare spending at all costs. Wanting to eliminate Welfare and Social Security without wanting to cut war spending does not make one a fiscal conservative; it makes one a class warfare participant fighting against the poor.

Dan8267 says

Wanting to eliminate Welfare and Social Security without wanting to cut war spending does not make one a fiscal conservative; it makes one a class warfare participant fighting against the poor.

Nice! I like that I'm writing that one down.

Dan8267 says

mell says

Actually with the exception of atheism and a split in raising taxes on the 1%, the other 2 points you stated are core tea party issues, or at least were until it got infested by the rusty wing of republicans trying to ride the wave and compromise its goals. There was a time where tea party and occupy where fairly close.

The Tea Party that idiot Karl talks of is the one fabricated by Fox News. They have always been pro-warfare and pro-Bush.

When given the chance to cut warfare spending, which is the vast majority of discretionary spending, the elected Tea Party representatives chose to save warfare spending at all costs. Wanting to eliminate Welfare and Social Security without wanting to cut war spending does not make one a fiscal conservative; it makes one a class warfare participant fighting against the poor.

Agreed, they sold out when they got elected. Not uncommon..

mell says

Agreed, they sold out when they got elected. Not uncommon..

Sold out implies that they were planning on cutting warfare spending while running for office. I don't believe that for a second.

mell says

Agreed, they sold out when they got elected. Not uncommon..

I think both parties are not sell outs. They both know who their target "audience" is. They have firms do research to see what riles up their base and all they care about is getting elected and enjoying the trappings of power. if they lose the next cycle-they have health care, pensions and become lobbyists-waitng for the next favorable cycle. Everything they say is targeted to their base, backed by research.

It is a game for them. Even Obama-he lit the birth control fire just in time for the election. Now I don't know if they fell for the trap or the repubs just used it to rile up the bases. But this is just a game. I was reading that even those megachurches hire MBAs to help them target their flock and increase revenue. It is just a carrer path, like us. As we strive to be employable, so do they-they just have the morals of pigs-no insult to pigs .

marcus says

We all grew up believing that we believe that.

But when you say things like this:

But marcus that is because that is all they are showing on the television these days.

Media is ran by media templates, and they constantly sell the "cool". And this race based cool bothers me, because it's on a few specific channels, and because it shouldn't exist that way.

Dan8267 says

Whether or not we should create human life from scratch is irrelevant to the thought experiment. The fact that we can, even in principle, is enough to demonstrate the plot holes in the "soul" mythology.

Every generation has it's limitations or our own barriers. For me, and I do think my generation it is this distinction. I've read somewhere that humans can be created via test tubes in laboratories. That is a different world to me. If it's a human being it should have the right to life. But a mechanical soulless creation such as a VCR should not.

How is that?

Dan8267 says

Including maggots? Bacteria? Biological viruses? Computer viruses?

Even if we accept that the premise that all maggots go to heaven, all you've accomplished is pushing the question from "do humans and thus fertilize eggs have souls" to "what constitutes 'living' and why is 'living' valuable"? I certainly do not value the life of an HIV viron.

Hmm.... I have to think about this one.

Dan8267 says

When given the chance to cut warfare spending, which is the vast majority of discretionary spending, the elected Tea Party representatives chose to save warfare spending at all costs.

As President Obama deploys a missile shield to protect the US from the Korean launch...

guess it was a good idea we had spent the money on it after all.

or how about detecting and responding to the Russian subs 300 miles off the east coast.

November 6th, 2012
03:05 PM ET
Navy detects Russian sub off U.S. East Coast

By Mike Mount

The U.S. Navy detected and tracked a Russian nuclear-powered attack submarine less than 300 miles from the southern U.S. East Coast last month, according to U.S. defense officials.

While the submarine did not enter U.S. territorial waters or follow any U.S. Navy ships, its arrival came while a Navy carrier strike group was training off Florida, according to defense officials who could not speak publicly because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The move by the Russians to put the ship close to the U.S. demonstrates its desire to ramp up deep-water patrolling by its submarine fleet - something the Russian government has said it would do, officials said.

The newer Sierra-2 submarine is thought to be part of the Russian Northern Fleet, and this is the first time this class of sub has been detected this close to the U.S., the officials said.

Dan8267 says

Once again, Tommy, your feeble little mind completely misses the point. Yet, in your ignorance, you demonstrate the point quite ironically.

.

you forgot to copy my point.. we are infact conserving our food source !

so i repeat...

"That is why we became farmers/ranchers.. who raise cattle far greater in number than nature could provide. fact is we have put intrinsic value on food which will continue to invest and preserve animals for a very long time.

Had a chicken lately... how about some steak or pork.. yep all raised by man and in large quantities .."

Dan8267 says

The point was that other ape species, which are clearly sentient beings, are treated as if their lives are worthless because of the soul lie. The lie of the soul has very material, grave, and evil consequences.

no we dont treat their lives as worthless.. go to a zoo..fact is provide that they have a very comfortable life.. hardly evil.

FortWayne says

For me, and I do think my generation it is this distinction. I've read somewhere that humans can be created via test tubes in laboratories. That is a different world to me. If it's a human being it should have the right to life. But a mechanical soulless creation such as a VCR should not.

How is that?

Commercial media hype various stories, and around 30 years ago it was hand-wringing over "test tube babies," many of whom have since grown up to become healthy adults. They were conceived in laboratories, then implanted as embryos, and born in the usual way, at which point they became "born" within the meaning of the 14th Amendment and thus citizens entitled to the equal protection of the laws. At some point, one can imagine a Brave New World scenario, which might perhaps require legislation to naturalize citizens who were not born in the usual sense, although Shakespeare already anticipated that in Macbeth, where Macduff was not "of woman born" but rather was "untimely ripped" from his mother's womb, i.e. delivered by Caesarean section. Returning to the OP, Republicans have become mired in religious fundamentalism, which alas tends to devolve into stopping up their ears and saying "make it stop," or even revert to the Bronze Age. The irony is some of the same people used to say "America, love it or leave it," when in fact the belief in religious fundamentalist theocracy fits better with Muslim countries: vets returning from Afghanistan say it was like fighting in the Bible because people there continue to live that way and want to return to it. The world doesn't stop turning, we can't stop progress, America especially is built for scientific progress, the Constitution expressly authorizes the promotion of "science and the useful arts" and prohibits establishment of religion. It was no coincidence that America was first to the moon, first with a polio vaccine, first even to figure out what we know about earthquakes. The Republican rejection of progress wouldn't work anyway, it would only cause America to be "left behind" (to borrow a phrase from the rapture believers), allowing other countries to surpass ours. Republicans sell fear of anything different (test tube babies, gay marriage, whatever), but most people see Republican policies themselves as the larger threat, with the endless wars and division and deficit spending. (In that latter category, neither major party alone seems able to balance a budget, America hasn't had a balanced budget since Clinton with a Republican Congress.)

FortWayne says

If it's a human being it should have the right to life. But a mechanical soulless creation such as a VCR should not.

How is that?

How are you going to determine if some entity has a soul? Ouija board?

How are you going to determine if something is "human"? DNA? What template will you use? Assuming that humans don't blow themselves up or destroy the global ecosystem, out descendants a mere 2 million years from now -- a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms -- will be as different from us as we are from chimps.

Genetic code and physical forms are lousy criteria for valuing the life of an entity. Once again, the only non-arbitrary criteria is self-awareness, a mind. I think, therefore I am.

And you still haven't even begun to address the scenario where the human brain's organic neurons are replaced by artificial or virtual neurons. And that's not just an academic argument. By the end of this century, I guarantee you that human brains will be augmented with technology to combat Alzheimer's and other neural diseases. If a stroke causes damage to brain tissue, why not plant a microchip to take on the responsibility of that part of the brain and restore the person to full mental capacity?

The converse scenario is that you can replace every single part of the body besides the brain with a mechanical system and still have the same person. You could surgically remove the brain and wire it up to an android body. Would not the android, having a human mind, be a human being?

And why the hell does a being need to be human to be a person? Why shouldn't chimps, who are clearly more self-aware than human babies, not be considered persons? Why should sufficiently intelligent extra-terrestrial life not be consider persons even if they are not technologically advanced?

If you're going to make a case that the state should make abortion illegal because of the existence of the soul, then you need to first prove the existence of the soul in a matter that would hold up in a court of law. Then you need to explain why we shouldn't kill babies before they have a chance to risk their immortal souls to an eternity of damnation, for if the soul did exist, it would be a moral and ethical imperative to save those souls even at the cost of those lives. After all, what is a measly century on Earth compared to all of eternity in heaven or hell?

The soul myth might be a mild anesthetic to dealing with mortality, but the delusion has logical consequences. If the soul were real, not only should abortion be legal, it should be mandatory.

thomaswong.1986 says

As President Obama deploys a missile shield to protect the US from the Korean launch...

guess it was a good idea we had spent the money on it after all.

I disagree. Money spent on warfare would be far better spent on developing infrastructure, foreign aid, and building up economic relations with the rest of the world. Far more lives would be saved and national security would be far better served.

European countries used to war with each other all the time. Now that is unthinkable. Why? Because of economic and social interdependence.

thomaswong.1986 says

no we dont treat their lives as worthless.. go to a zoo..fact is provide that they have a very comfortable life.. hardly evil.

Once more, I will try to dispel your ignorance. Please learn for once.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/JJ--faib7to

Dan8267 says

European countries used to war with each other all the time. Now that is unthinkable. Why? Because of economic and social interdependence.

And one other very significant reason: military dependence on the United States. Who carries the weight of NATO?

Besides, how many years of relative peace have their been in Europe, less than 25, depending on whether you count the Balkans or go back to the Berlin Wall)? That's not a lot of years of peace, relative to Europe's history.

tatupu70 says

None of those men would be part of today's Republican Party.

Those liberal cross-dressers wouldn't be allowed in today's Republican Party out of homophobia.

Paralithodes says

And one other very significant reason: military dependence on the United States. Who carries the weight of NATO?

1. The cold war is over. NATO is unnecessary.

2. Britain and France have nukes and ICBMs. They are not dependent on the U.S.

3. If the U.S. were to suddenly disappear -- say all them good Jesus-loving Christians were just raptured away -- Europe would not descend into war. It would still be unthinkable that the UK and France were to fight each other.

Dan8267 says

Once more, I will try to dispel your ignorance. Please learn for once.

It takes a real asshole to be so pro-baby-chick-slaughter that he dislikes a posting of that video.