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CL
2013 Apr 9, 3:08am
Can you IMAGINE any college hiring someone like McVeigh after he served time in jail (if he was still alive)?
I can picture Fox. They'd put him on across from Liddy or Ollie.
curious2
2013 Apr 9, 4:15am
The draft is a pretty Democratic concept. Getting out of the draft is where the problem is... If there were no exceptions, or if they started with Congress' children....
Alas the current Democratic party does tend to favor conscription, including both the military and Obamacare. That is profoundly illiberal, but there is a lot of money and power to be gained from it, partly because by grabbing power to conscript everyone, politicians' patronage networks also have the power to sell exemptions in exchange for votes or favors or money.
Your list of military draft exceptions and exemptions omitted the biggest examples: women and people over 30. Those limit the target group to a minority. If a major party can fool a majority into conscripting or imprisoning a minority, it can harness an endless source of power and revenue for itself and its patronage networks. See Viet Nam, Obamacare, the drug war, etc. The results are very ugly.
But here is what I find funny about this thread. People actually familiar with the left can think of actual examples where it's gone wrong. Viewers of Faux News merely splutter speculation and wildly inaccurate falsehoods about terrorists. I guess reality does have a liberal bias, which is not always a left bias, but is usually the opposite of a Faux News bias.
Dan8267
2013 Apr 9, 4:16am
Some people call Timothy McVeigh a terrorist and others call him a hero.
No one calls Timothy McVeigh a hero.
Why is it that people today still don't realize that it is trivially easy to disprove statements like that in the Information Age?
http://www.youtube.com/embed/vSACMqcGX9c
If you want to continue living in a fantasy world that facts can't destroy, don't tell others about your own "indisputable facts".
CL
2013 Apr 9, 4:18am
If you want to continue living in a fantasy world that facts can't destroy, don't tell others about your own "indisputable facts".
Why believe in reality, when you can invent your own? Right, President Romney?
Why is it that people today still don't realize that it is trivially easy to disprove statements like that in
the Information Age?
FFS - THAT is your response? Some crackpot anonymous Youtube video?
How painfully dumb can you get dude? Especially considering how strident you are.
Show me one reputable right wing politician, celebrity or academic that praises him or any "person of the right" that has engaged in violence against their fellow citizens for political purposes.
My original contribution to this thread was to point out that MAJOR IVY LEAGUE universities employ former convicts (Kathy Boudin) who murdered people to brainwash our kids.
You can't find one single example that compares on the Right. If you could, you wouldn't be embarrassing yourself linking lame Youtube video tributes to McVeigh.
CL
2013 Apr 9, 7:29am
Show me one reputable right wing politician, celebrity or academic that praises him
They don't have to praise him, they created him. That dude prattled on like he had Limbaugh wires in his brain.
Remember Waco!?!?! Ruby Ridge!?!?! Black Helicopters!
leo707
2013 Apr 9, 7:36am
FFS - THAT is your response? Some crackpot anonymous Youtube video?
You may want to take another look at Dan's original, "Some people call Timothy McVeigh a terrorist, and others call him a hero."
Dan did not say that those calling McVeigh a hero were reputable leaders of the GOP. So, yes some people do call McVeigh a hero. The claim that no one calls him a hero is patently wrong.
My original contribution to this thread was to point out that MAJOR IVY LEAGUE universities employ former convicts (Kathy Boudin) who murdered people to brainwash our kids.
You mistakenly used the plural "convicts" when you should have said "convict." Or, do you have other examples of Ivy League schools employing murders? Also, it must be noted that Kathy Boudin did not actually kill anybody.
You can't find one single example that compares on the Right.
And you can find only one single example of a "liberal" -- convicted of felony murder -- who worked for an Ivy League university. While I am no fan of Kathy Boudin or Ivy League schools for that matter, your claims are a bit silly.
leo707
2013 Apr 9, 7:38am
Show me one reputable right wing politician, celebrity or academic that praises him
They don't have to praise him, they created him. That dude prattled on like he had Limbaugh wires in his brain.
Remember Waco!?!?! Ruby Ridge!?!?! Black Helicopters!
Michael Savage has the most volatile rhetoric of the right wing hate machine:
http://williamrwilson.hubpages.com/hub/Michael-Savage-Hate-Speech-and-Political-Violence
leo707
2013 Apr 9, 7:41am
How are the terrorists from the Weather Underground any different than the terrorists like Timothy McVeigh or Terry Nichols? Both groups killed innocent people and blew up government buildings to further their politic goals.
Here is a hint: look at the crimes and sentencing received by both groups
Violent action is not a binary equation.
They don't have to praise him, they created him. That dude prattled on like
he had Limbaugh wires in his brain.
Remember Waco!?!?! Ruby Ridge!?!?! Black Helicopters!
Ha ha! You got nothing.
Again, come back when you have ONE EXAMPLE of mainstream Republicans giving convicted murderers or bombers teaching spots at our colleges.
Here is a hint: look at the crimes and sentencing received by both
groups
Violent action is not a binary equation.
McVeigh got the death penalty, Nichols got life in prison, and Weather Underground radicals got teaching gigs in Chicago (Doyrn, Ayers) and Robert Redford movies white-washing their murderous past.
Just look at the international Marxists and Commies that were (and still are) lionized by some of our academics like Che Guevara, Castro, Chavez, Mao......Didn't Redford also make or produce a movie on Che?
It is just a different sport. There is no equivalence on the Right.
CL
2013 Apr 9, 8:05am
Ha ha! You got nothing.
Again, come back when you have ONE EXAMPLE of mainstream Republicans giving convicted murderers or bombers teaching spots at our colleges.
That is a pretty strange and esoteric set of qualifiers. Who gives out the teaching spots? How do we know their party Identification?
Who gave Boudin her job even? I mean, it could be a Republican, unless you believe there is a litmus test for higher education?
leo707
2013 Apr 9, 8:05am
McVeigh got the death penalty, Nichols got life in prison, and Weather Underground radicals got teaching gigs in Chicago (Doyrn, Ayers) and Robert Redford movies white-washing their murderous past.
So, what you are suggesting is that the Weather Underground members -- who you feel committed crimes equivalent to McVeigh and Nichols -- got preferential treatment from our criminal justice system?
So, what you are suggesting is that the Weather Underground members -- who
committed crimes equivalent to McVeigh and Nichols -- got preferential treatment
from our criminal justice system?
They certainly got preferential treatment from our high end universities.
Can you imagine Columbia hiring an abortion clinic bomber who wasn't repentent but served his/her time in jail to teach kids about organizing protests?
Just wouldn't happen in this universe. Hell - you can hardly be a registered Republican and be hired by our large universities.
None of these Weather Underground types are repentent. FFS - Ayers had an Op-ed on 9/11/01 in the NYTimes saying he "didn't do enough" back during his radical days bombing buildings. Dohrn certainly isn't repentent and even had nice things to say about Charles Manson murdering Sharon Tate!
"First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, then they even shoved a fork into the pig Tate's stomach! Wild!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernardine_Dohrn
Yet this monster was hired as an adjunct professor for Northwestern University School of Law!
The Left is A-OK with political violence as long is it is their people doing it for "good causes". Look at all the OWS morons last year breaking windows and even attempting to bomb bridges in Ohio.
http://news.yahoo.com/ows-tactics-turn-violent-attempted-cleveland-bridge-bombing-210700652.html
Can you imagine Columbia hiring an abortion clinic bomber who wasn't repentent but served his/her time in jail to teach kids about organizing protests?
Just wouldn't happen in this universe. Hell - you can hardly be a registered Republican and be hired by our large universities.
None of these Weather Underground types are repentent. FFS - Ayers had an Op-ed on 9/11/01 in the NYTimes saying he "didn't do enough" back during his radical days bombing buildings. Dohrn certainly isn't repentent and even had nice things to say about Charles Manson murdering Sharon Tate!
"First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, then they even shoved a fork into the pig Tate's stomach! Wild!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernardine_DohrnYet this monster was hired as an adjunct professor for Northwestern University School of Law!
very very good point...
leo707
2013 Apr 9, 8:38am
So, what you are suggesting is that the Weather Underground members -- who
committed crimes equivalent to McVeigh and Nichols -- got preferential treatment
from our criminal justice system?They certainly got preferential treatment from our high end universities.
That was not the question. Did Weather Underground members get preferential treatment from our criminal justice system?
leo707
2013 Apr 9, 8:40am
Again, come back when you have ONE EXAMPLE of mainstream Republicans giving convicted murderers or bombers teaching spots at our colleges.
The Republican equivalent that is evolved with illegal bombs and killings is given immunity for testifying for congress, and then rather than take a teaching gig they get a much more lucrative position hosting a show on FOX "news."
That was not the question. Did Weather Underground members get preferential
treatment from our criminal justice system?
Don't believe that either Ayers or Dohrn saw any jail time for bombing government buildings and having their group members murder people.
So you tell me.
That was not the question. Did Weather Underground members get preferential treatment from our criminal justice system?
you think anyone else who committed equal similar crimes would get a teaching position
in a top 10 university ? that is what i call preferential treatment by the left...
leo707
2013 Apr 9, 8:52am
That was not the question. Did Weather Underground members get preferential
treatment from our criminal justice system?
Don't believe that either Ayers or Dohrn saw any jail time for bombing government buildings and having their group members murder people.
So you tell me.
Hmmmm...so what you are telling me is that our criminal justice system did not see McVeigh and Ayers as equivalent?
Why would that be???? Remind me again who Ayers murdered?
The Republican equivalent that is evolved with illegal bombs and killings is
given immunity for testifying for congress, and then rather than take a teaching
gig they get a much more lucrative position hosting a show on FOX "news."
Oliver North? For real?
You really think trying to sell arms to Iran to free American hostages held in Lebanon is the equivalent of blowing up government buildings, targeting judges and murdering American citizens?
Do you even know anything about the Weather Undergound and all of the violence they perpetrated? Both Ayers and Dohrn signed a "declaration of war" against the US!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_Underground
leo707
2013 Apr 9, 8:59am
The Republican equivalent that is evolved with illegal bombs and killings is
given immunity for testifying for congress, and then rather than take a teaching
gig they get a much more lucrative position hosting a show on FOX "news."
Oliver North? For real?
You really think trying to sell arms to Iran to free American hostages held in Lebanon is the equivalent of blowing up government buildings, targeting judges and murdering American citizens?
Do you even know anything about the Weather Undergound and all of the violence they perpetrated? Both Ayers and Dohrn signed a "declaration of war" against the US!
For real?
You don't know anything about the Contra part of that whole deal?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_%28guerrillas%29#Human_rights_violations
Then again North must be in your "hero" category, not "terrorist."
Why would that be???? Remind me again who Ayers murdered?
The leaders of an organized crime family or terrorist cells are equally guilty of murders.
Bill Ayers was a co-founder and leader of WU ... therefore he is guilty of crimes of the organization he lead.
and no Bin Laden didnt kill anyone directly either, but was a co founder of al-Qaeda terrorist organization that killed tens of thousands and therefore Bin Laden is guilty of terrorism and murder.
CL
2013 Apr 9, 9:09am
For real?
You don't know anything about the Contra part of that whole deal?
There's also that whole Constitution thing:
curious2
2013 Apr 9, 9:14am
murdering American citizens?
You keep saying that, even though others keep reminding you that the Weather Underground didn't murder anyone. Maybe you should write in some random made-up murders and add them to your only source, Wikipedia. Maybe someone else will add accusations of conspiring with a giant spectral entity that may or may not have been Satan. You could get a real rally going, if you accept Wikipedia as a source.
This is what I don't understand about Faux News "conservatives." Why must you insist on ignorance? Why, even when you are invited to comment on the ugliness of the left, do you fail to find actual examples? You could have done better with Waco, where the Clinton administration incinerated a bunch of people (including children) in their own home. What is it about Faux News that makes you focus on false examples, things that can only be taken on faith because they aren't actually true? Is it some kind of loyalty test? Do you agree to make false allegations as part of your cable subscription? Is there a contest to dream up the most outlandish accusations, and you're hoping for a prize? I really don't understand, what drives you to insist on falsehoods when you could easily find valid criticisms if you merely looked beyond Wikipedia and Faux News?
There's also that whole Constitution thing:
no.. not constitutional.. it was part of the Defense Appropriations Act of 1982 and 1983 and ran out end of 1985. Funding the contras afterwards would have been legal.
You keep saying that, even though others keep reminding you that the Weather Underground didn't murder anyone.
since when was it not criminal by a outlawed communist terror group to set bombs to explode at government offices ?
example...
On May 19, 1972, Ho Chi Minh’s birthday, the Weather Underground placed a bomb in the women’s bathroom in the Air Force wing of the Pentagon. The damage caused flooding that destroyed computer tapes holding classified information. Other radical groups worldwide applauded the bombing, illustrated by German youths protesting against American military systems in Frankfurt. This was "in retaliation for the U.S. bombing raid in Hanoi."
leo707
2013 Apr 9, 9:20am
What is it about Faux News that makes you focus on false examples, things that can only be taken on faith because they aren't actually true? Is it some kind of loyalty test? Do you agree to make false allegations as part of your cable subscription? Is there a contest to dream up the most outlandish accusations, and you're hoping for a prize? I really don't understand, what drives you to insist on falsehoods when you could easily find valid criticisms if you merely looked beyond Wikipedia and Faux News?
Yeah, I see this happen often. Lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth about absurd bullshit when there are actual real documented good examples to complain about.
You keep saying that, even though others keep reminding you that the Weather Underground didn't murder anyone. Maybe you should write in some random made-up murders and add them to your only source,
had their been one death or injury then you would never heard of the WU, very much like
that of Symbionese Liberation Army which did bank robberies and killed 2 people.
only after the killings, execution style, and repeated rapes of Patricia Hearst, which was
brought out to the public trials did SLA and WU lose their shine.
guess they were more thugs and criminals than some revolutionaries people wanted to believe in.
both grew from the same poisonous weed.
curious2
2013 Apr 9, 9:39am
since when was it not criminal by a outlawed communist terror group to set bombs to explode at government offices ?
Dan can identify the fake argument you used there, I think he'd call it substitution. SoCal accused them of murder, which I reminded him was false, so you feign indignation and ask since when were their actions not criminal. Schoolchildren have been putting pipe bombs in school bathrooms, or at least talking about doing that, probably for as long as there have been pipe bombs and school bathrooms. If they don't kill anyone, it isn't murder. That doesn't mean it isn't criminal, it just means it isn't murder.
Schoolchildren have been putting pipe bombs in school bathrooms, or at least talking about doing that, probably for as long as there have been pipe bombs and school bathrooms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Weatherman_actions
you can read the who list.. of bombings and killings...
yes, you hate wiki, but anything that disputes your claims gets equal contempt.
February 16: A bomb is detonated at the Golden Gate Park branch of the San Francisco Police Department, killing one officer and injuring a number of other policemen (one seriously). No organization claims credit for either bombing. (See San Francisco Police Department Park Station bombing.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Police_Department_Park_Station_bombing
March 6 – WUO members Theodore Gold, Diana Oughton, and Terry Robbins are killed in the Greenwich Village townhouse explosion,[2][8] when a nailbomb they were constructing detonates. The bomb was intended to be planted at a non-commissioned officer's dance at Fort Dix, New Jersey
March 30 – Chicago police discover a WUO "bomb factory" on Chicago’s north side
April 1 - Based on a tip Chicago Police find 59 sticks of dynamite, ammunition, and nitro glyerine in an apartment traced to WUO members.[12] The discover of the WUO weapons cache ends WUO activity in this city.
June 6 – In a letter, the WUO claims credit for bombing of the San Francisco Hall of Justice, although no explosion has occurred. Months later, workmen locate an unexploded bomb
June 9 - The New York City Police headquarters is bombed by Jane Alpert and accomplices. Weathermen state this is in response to "police repression."[13][14] The bomb made with ten sticks of dynamite exploded in the NYC Police Headquarters. The explosion was preceded by a warning about six minutes prior to the detonation and subsequently by a WUO claim of responsibility
curious2
2013 Apr 9, 10:03am
you can read the who list.. of bombings and killings...
yes, you hate wiki, but anything that disputes your claims gets equal contempt.
I don't hate Wikipedia, it has the candor to acknowledge it isn't a source. Only you and SoCal seem to claim it as one, a claim that it denies.
Update - since you edited your post to add a quote about a San Francisco incident - as your own "source" acknowledges, nobody was ever even charged, let alone indicted or convicted, because there was no reliable evidence. If you have any evidence related to the incident, please report it to the SFPD or the FBI. If you don't, then don't accuse people of murder without evidence.
Second update, since you're spamming your own post with quotes from Wikipedia. In addition to quoting Wikipedia, you're trying to use substitution again. None of those incidents even allegedly involved murder.
I don't hate Wikipedia, it has the candor to acknowledge it isn't a source.
choke on it!
Update - since you edited your post to add a quote about a San Francisco incident - as your own "source" acknowledges, nobody was ever even charged, let alone indicted or convicted, because there was no reliable evidence.
According to the San Francisco Chronicle, "Investigators in the early '70s said the bombing likely was the work of the Weather Underground,
were you expecting a school girl with pipe bombs being responsibe for all this ?
curious2
2013 Apr 9, 10:09am
choke on it!
Choke on what, your ignorance? The air is clean here, no matter how you try to pollute it.
likely
So they investigated and did they find sufficient evidence to support the charge? No. Eventually the absence of evidence becomes evidence of absence. They kept investigating "the usual suspects," while the real perpetrators got away. Maybe it was the guy who went after Texas prosecutors recently.
April 1 - Based on a tip Chicago Police find 59 sticks of dynamite, ammunition, and nitro glyerine in an apartment traced to WUO members.[12] The discover of the WUO weapons cache ends WUO activity in this city.
Maybe it was the guy who went after Texas prosecutors recently.
maybe it was the CIA and FBI...
July 25 - The United States Army base at The Presidio in San Francisco is bombed on the 11th anniversary of the Cuban Revolution.[13] [NYT, 7/27/70] On the same day, a branch of the Bank of America is bombed in New York.[14]
July 28 - Bank of America HQ in NYC is bombed around 3:50 AM. WUO claims responsibility.
curious2
2013 Apr 9, 10:13am
maybe it was the CIA and FBI...
Well, since you mentioned them, at least those organizations were actually involved in killing people.
October 8 - Bombing of Marin County courthouse. WUO states this is in retaliation for the killings of Jonathan Jackson,
October 10 - A Queens traffic-court building is bombed. WUO claims this is to express support for the New York prison riots.
October 11 - A Courthouse in Long Island City, NY is bombed. An estimated 8 to 10 sticks of dynamite are used. A warning was given around 10 min. prior to the 1:23 AM blast by the WUO
October 14 - The Harvard Center for International Affairs is bombed by The Proud Eagle Tribe of Weather (later renamed the Women's Brigade of the Weather Underground).[18] WUO claims this is to protest the war in Vietnam. [NYT, 10/14/70, p. 30] The bombing was in reaction to Angela Davis' arrest and was the first action undertaken by an all-women's unit of WUO
December 5th - Five Weatherman are captured for trying to bomb First National City Bank of NY and other buildings on the anniversary of the death of Fred Hampton. These individuals subsequently plead guilty.
March 1 - The United States Capitol is bombed. WUO states this is to protest the invasion of Laos. President Richard M. Nixon denounces the bombing as a "shocking act of violence that will outrage all Americans." [NYT, 3/2/71]
October 15 - The bombing of William Bundy's office in the MIT research center. [NYT, 10/16/71]
May 18 - The bombing of the 103rd Police Precinct in New York. WUO states this is in response to the killing of 10-year-old black youth Clifford Glover by police.
September 28 - ITT headquarters buildings in New York and Rome, Italy are bombed. WUO states this is in response to ITT's alleged role in the Chilean coup earlier that month
May 31 - The Office of the California Attorney General is bombed. WUO states this is in response to the killing of six members of the Symbionese Liberation Army.
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As ugly and despicable as the right is, it does not have a monopoly on ugliness. Recently, a successful female Princeton graduate, Susan Patton -- one of the first women to attend Princeton, by the way -- recently wrote a short, honest letter in which she advocated that Princeton women follow a long-term dating strategy in college rather than a short-term stating strategy. Patton argues that college is the best time for women to secure a husband and that who a woman marries will be instrumental in her happiness.
Of course, everything Patton said is undeniably true. College is the time in which both men and women have access to the greatest pool of eligible mates with similar interests and life situations, with the freedom to live anywhere, and the least emotional, financial, and physical baggage.
It is also indisputably true that mate selection is one of the most important, if not the most important, decision a man or woman will ever, ever make in his or her life. A happy marriage makes for a far better life than a miserable one. And as indicated the sheer ferociousness of the mating market, competition for high quality mates is extremely high for both straight men and women. (I would think that such competition would also be extremely high in homosexual and bisexual mating markets, but I'll leave that for another thread.) Not that being single can't be great, but even then, your family is an essential part of your life. If you do get married, that doesn't become less true.
So, Susan Patton advices that women at Princeton consider shifting from "playing the field" (short-term strategy) to "looking for a husband" (long-term strategy). Now, one can argue whether or not Patton is correct. There are many trade-offs in life including marrying young when your options are vast or waiting until your older and your options are limited to what's left over or in the secondary market. There are various pros and cons, and I'm sure this thread will spawn a discussion on those pros and cons and well as the nature of Patton's advice.
However, before we get to that, I would like to point out the utterly unacceptable behavior of the far left which seeks to silence the very discussion of this topic by making personal attacks on Patton and by making dumb Straw Man arguments including the false dichotomy that either a woman of college age must be completely disinterested in husband selection or she is forever doomed to live in the 1950s.
Such arguments and attacks show an irrational opposition to even listening to a discussion that creates a bubble around the left that is essentially the same as the bubble the right lives in. No facts, no ideas, no truth can get inside that bubble. And those living in the bubble must preserve the integrity of that bubble, no matter what the cost.
The letter Susan Patton wrote to The Daily Princetonian
By the way, doesn't Princetonian remind you of Praetorian? Or is that just me?
CNN Video: A nasty leftist attacks Patton
ABC News Video: Reactions to Patton's Letter
OK, have at it...