patrick.net

A 3 minute introcuction followed by the PR used by Republican candidates, so what. How about the Cliff notes?

Can't see the links at work, but since all of the climate scientists agree there has been no Global Warming in the last 15 years, isn't it a good thing some of our leaders showed "doubt" about implementing foolish carbon reduction measures that would put even more people into poverty as we suffer through this historic recession?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/science/earth/what-to-make-of-a-climate-change-plateau.html?_r=0

How about abortion? Do you really want to pretend Democrats want to educate the population of what they are destroying (i.e. a clump of cells or tumor)?

How about municipal pensions? Seems to me the Democrats want to keep the public in the dark about how unworkable these Ponzi Schemes are as they bankrupt massive cities across the country.

So I don't think Republicans hold a monopoly on keeping the public ignorant to prevent the "government from solving urgent problems".

socal2 says

Can't see the links at work, but since all of the climate scientists agree there has been no Global Warming in the last 15 years, isn't it a good thing some of our leaders showed "doubt" about implementing foolish carbon reduction measures that would put even more people into poverty as we suffer through this historic recession?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/science/earth/what-to-make-of-a-climate-change-plateau.html?_r=0

Ummm...you did not read anything other than the title of that article when you posted it didn't you?

No need to go and read it now I can paraphrase, for you, what your citation link says:

It says, "People who say, 'there has been no Global Warming in the last 15 years' are full of shit and they don't know what they are talking about."

This ideas was discussed ad nauseum in this thread:
http://patrick.net/?p=1225973

So many posts on PatNet confirm that the rank-n-file Republicans are more than willing to repeat the lies of the Republican politicians. That's why I find it hard to have any respect for rank-n-file Republican voters anymore.

Dan8267 says

So many posts on PatNet confirm that the rank-n-file Liberals are more than willing to repeat the lies of the Democrat politicians and Liberal Media. That's why I find it hard to have any respect for rank-n-file Democrat voters anymore.

Fixed for you.

You are insane if you think one party in the US has a monoply on the "truth". Democrats think they have the truth because they live in the Matrix created by the left dominated media, academia, and federal bueracracy where they all follow the same conventional wisdom like good little PC sheep. So when Liberals hear alternative points of view it seems so alien to them they have to find ways to discredit the argument instead of engaging in debate or backing up their own views.

Again, I think the late term abortion issue is a prime example of US democrats and the US media lying and obfuscating the truth behind pleasant sounding euphemisms of "choice" and "women's health".

Most liberal abortion supporters are absolutely incapable of wrapping their minds around the horror of late term abortions and fetal viability so they have to resort to snarky arguments about Republicans only believing in patriarchy or want women to die.

Dan8267 says

So many posts on PatNet confirm that the rank-n-file Republicans are more than willing to repeat the lies of the Republican politicians. That's why I find it hard to have any respect for rank-n-file Republican voters anymore.

I'm not a R nor a D, but your comment is a 2 way street.

socal2 says

You are insane if you think one party in the US has a monoply on the "truth".

You are insane if you think I believe in either party. I simply believe from history that Democrats are far less evil. That doesn't mean they aren't evil; they are just a minor evil compared to Republicans.

socal2 says

So when Liberals hear alternative points of view it seems so alien to them they have to find ways to discredit the argument instead of engaging in debate or backing up their own views.

There are few liberals in the Democratic Party. I've already explained the difference between a liberal and a leftist a hundred times on this site. See my previous posts if you want to use the word liberal.

socal2 says

Again, I think the late term abortion issue is a prime example of US democrats and the US media lying and obfuscating the truth behind pleasant sounding euphemisms of "choice" and "women's health".

I'm against third trimester abortions and have shown that abortion is not a "woman's issue". See my post The abortion question answered. Turns out, both sides were wrong.

socal2 says

Most liberal abortion supporters are absolutely incapable of wrapping their minds around the horror of late term abortions

Once again, you are completely wrong. The abortion issue is not a liberal vs. non-liberal issue. It is perfectly within liberal philosophy to be pro-life from conception. I would disagree with that position, but it's not against the liberal philosophy. Again, see my abortion post.

indigenous says

I'm not a R nor a D, but your comment is a 2 way street.

I'm an I, but like any rational I, I won't vote for the American Taliban, which is what the R's have become. It's not that the D's are shit, it's that the R's are batshit crazy shit. There's no surprise that the Millennials all but abhor the modern Republican Party.

The last good Republican was Ike. I like Ike. But he was a Republican before they embraced the Southern Strategy and all the Dixiecrat scumbags became Republicans.

Dan8267 says

I'm an I, but like any rational I, I won't vote for the American Taliban, which is what the R's have become. It's not that the D's are shit, it's that the R's are batshit crazy shit. There's no surprise that the Millennials all but abhor the modern Republican Party.

The last good Republican was Ike. I like Ike. But he was a Republican before they embraced the Southern Strategy and all the Dixiecrat scumbags became Republicans.

FWIW I have been registered as a Libertarian for 35yr+

You might want to check out what Harding and Coolidge did.

Dan8267 says

You are insane if you think I believe in either party. I simply believe from
history that Democrats are far less evil.

I guess we will agree to disagree.

I think the Democrat's near monolithic support of abortion on demand is the greatest evil in our country right now. It ranks right up there with the Democrat's historical and shamefull support for slavery, Jim Crow and Eugenics.

If you think Democrat's monolithic support for abortion on demand (including our President's support for late term abortion) is less "evil" than Republicans supporting traditional marriage and procreation - you really are insane.

FFS - supporting traditional marriage is "batshit crazy" but supporting abortion on demand is not? Gay marriage wasn't even an issue 15 years ago.

BTW - I wouldn't be taking much comfort in the fact that Democrats have a lock on the young and stupid Millenial vote. This demographic is about to feel the most pain from Obama's policies. Most people grow up and become more conservative as they live life and get some space away from their group-think school indoctrination and Facebook memes.

socal2 says

I guess we will agree to disagree.

Which is ok, as long as we're disagreeing on principles and opinions, but not on facts.

socal2 says

I think the Democrat's near monolithic support of abortion on demand is the greatest evil in our country right now.

I would hold the torture, murder, and rape of innocents by our military including through drone strikes to be more evil. And yes, some of these drone strikes have killed pregnant women. That's a forced abortion. How much more evil is that?

And yes, I do blame Obama, a Democrat, for that evil as well as Republicans and other Democrats.

socal2 says

It ranks right up there with the Democrat's historical and shamefull support for slavery, Jim Crow and Eugenics.

The pre-1960s Democrats you refer to are today's Republicans, and yes, they are just as evil today as they were back then. They just get away with less today -- well, sometimes.

socal2 says

If you think Democrat's monolithic support for abortion on demand (including our President's support for late term abortion) is less "evil" than Republicans supporting traditional marriage and procreation - you really are insane.

I wouldn't say that. However, I would say that the overall evil of Republicans over the past 13 years has been far, far greater than the overall evil of Democrats. And that's including Obama as the most or second most evil president.

However, making gays into second-class citizens is evil and it is clearly and unquestionably Unconstitutional as shown in several other threads.

socal2 says

FFS - supporting traditional marriage is "batshit crazy" but supporting abortion on demand is not? Gay marriage wasn't even an issue 15 years ago.

Gay marriage was an issue for over a hundred years, just like slavery was an issue for over a hundred years before the Civil War. It is just now that popular opinion has shifted so that politicians are better off supporting it than denying it.

However, I have never said that being against same-sex marriages is batshit crazy. There are a hell of a lot of things that I have said are batshit crazy about the right wing. Please refer to my previous posts for ample examples. I stand by every one of those examples, although I do reserve the right to change my mind at any time should good reason be presented for me to do so.

I have said that same-sex marriage is a Constitutional right under the 14th Amendment and the Supreme Court Case of Loving v. Virginia, and that being against same-sex marriage is Unamerican. I stand by that statement and will be willing to debate that issue in a new thread if you like. However, that's vastly different than saying batshit crazy. I reserve that for things that are truly insane, not simply unjust.

socal2 says

I wouldn't be taking much comfort in the fact that Democrats have a lock on the young and stupid Millenial vote.

I don't think you understand why the Millennials abhor the Republican Party, or you wouldn't be confident in their switching parties in the future. The Millennials are the first truly digital generation raised on the Internet. They don't think tribally like the former Dixiecrats, now Republican.

Nor are the Millennials stupid by any means. Sure, there are plenty of dumb asses in every generation, but the Millennials are by far more knowledgeable and educated then any previous generation. Granted, this has a lot to do with all of mankind's knowledge being available on the Internet and the great increase in world communication, but the results are the same.

I would, however, say that the smart-dumb gap has increased over the past 100 years.

Dan - you haven't come up with a single valid point to support your childish and ignorant "Republicans are evil" rant.

You admit that Obama continued and put Bush's foreign policies on steroids. Obama's expanded drone policy is far more unfair and consequential than trying to capture, interrogate and conduct military tribunals on war criminals.

Don't even get me started with NSA and IRS snooping under Obama.

Abortion has ended the lives of over 55,000,000 Americans over the past 30+ years. What Republican "crime" even holds a candle to that evil?

All you got is gay marriage which virtually every Democrat politician (including our President) was against a few years ago.

You seem to occasionally make some valid observations, and I admire how you deviate from your party's unthinking orthodoxy on abortion, but then you fall into this childish "X group are evil" and it makes you look like a bipolar moron - IMO.

I don't think liberals are evil or even stupid. I think liberalism has some great policies and attractive arguments, I just agree on the whole more often with Conservatives on issues that I think are most important.

And I certainly don't think millenials have a clue. What good is all that education (and massive loan debt) with humanities degrees when there are no jobs and nothing but crushing entitlement debt in the future? The millenials have virtually no life experience and most haven't developed a work ethic yet. Is this really the future of our country?

Anecodotal evidence only, but I was a strident Democrat about 20 years ago before I moved to California and started seeing the political/social dysfunction first hand.

People grow up and their views can change.

socal2 says

Dan - you haven't come up with a single valid point to support your childish and ignorant "Republicans are evil" rant.

Republicans
1. Are pro-torture.
2. Have no problem killing innocent foreigners including children and pregnant women.
3. Established secret prisons without the right of Habeas corpus
4. Established illegal wiretapping of U.S. citizens.
5. Lied to start unjust and illegal, by international law, wars that resulted in the deaths of over a million people. That's a genocide.
6. Protected companies that engaged in illegal wiretapping while prosecuting whistle-blowers, the very people necessary to safeguard democracy.
7. Are risking mass death, if not the extinction of our species, by promoting the wholesale polluting of the Earth. And they lie about science to further this agenda.
8. Deliberately sabotaged the economy and our national security in an attempt to lower Obama's popularity.

Need I go on?

If you Republicans want people like me to stop thinking that you are evil, you need to stop being so god-damn evil so god-damn always.

The fact that Obama and some Democrats are also guilty of the above doesn't change the fact that these evils are overwhelmingly endorsed by one party more than the other.

socal2 says

I don't think liberals are evil or even stupid. I think liberalism has some great policies and attractive arguments, I just agree on the whole more often with Conservatives on issues that I think are most important.

Pre-1960s, there was nothing evil about the Republicans. Post-2000, there hasn't been anything not evil about them.

I didn't leave the Republican Party; they left me.

socal2 says

Abortion has ended the lives of over 55,000,000 Americans over the past 30+ years. What Republican "crime" even holds a candle to that evil?

Do you truly and honestly believe that 55,000,000+ American babies have been systematically murdered over the past 30+ years?

Yet you sit by and do nothing... (well other than complain about it on the internet)

I am skeptical that you think abortion is actually killing human babies.

If large organizations were legally rounding up millions of kids between 0 and 18 months then taking them to a facility and dumping them into a meat grinder, I don't think that I would have the time or freedom to complain about it on the internet.

Well, maybe you do believe that babies are being killed and our morals just differ on what should be done about baby murderers.

It must really suck that republicans keeps LIberal lies at bay enough to expose them as the fraud they are.

Climate change the raising the debt ceiling, pretty much all of it.

Guess what? we have a surplus now, and the last three consecutive years have been cooler than the previous one.

If it was up to the Libs we would be 10 trillion in the hole building some Climate change dome over the earth and a space elevator, while everyone would be paying carbon taxes every time they farted and a VAT tax to offset the global warming.

socal2 says

I am confident that most pro-Abortion folks will be deeply ashamed of their ignorance.

Yeah for sure something is definately out of whack.

I know damn well, that if the Right didn't have a religious tone for being opponents of abortions, and "family planning" was their idea.

The Left would be all over them accuseing them of trying to breed out minorities or prohibit them from reproducing. And they would be calling abortions the murder that they can be. Depending on the view you want to take.

If you reckon your self a trendy hipster that knows every damn thing, then abortions are perfectly fine, and it's the rest of the world that has a problem with it. If you look at people as people, then it is what is. Murdering another human being.

I actually turned 45 and 9 months on my last birthday, not 45.
That has a lot to do with it. If we identified people's age according to conception, abortion would be a cut and dry MURDER wrap.

socal2 says

You and Leo really think you've made a clever point?

Not really just an obvious one.

socal2 says

So folks who are against the Iraq and Afghan wars need to start bombing the Pentagon or they are the "scum of the earth" for letting all that murder to take place?

You are comparing apples to oranges. Disagreeing with if we should be at war or not is not analogous to the legalized wholesale slaughter of young children.

How about this old question:

"You are exiting a burning hospital just before it collapses into a pile of rubble killing everyone left inside. Before you is a crying newborn baby in it's hospital bassinet. Next to the baby is a container with 100 live embryos slated for implantation into women. You can only carry one. Do you save the 100 embryos or the baby?"

socal2 says

I am confident that most pro-Abortion folks will be deeply ashamed of their ignorance.

You mean they will be almost as ashamed as the anti-choice people are in their willingness to sit on the sidelines when they see a holocaust killing tens of millions of babies in progress.

socal2 says

Virtually every European country limits abortion to 13-15 weeks...

And you think that this is reasonable?

socal2 says

...but the moral monsters (or scientifically illiterate) folks who make up the bulk of the Democrat party are hell bent on the ability to destroy their unborn babies at any time on demand.

No one, and certainly not "the bulk of the Democrat[s]", is arguing that abortion should be "at any time on demand."

leo707 says

How about this old question:

"You are exiting a burning hospital just before it collapses into a pile of
rubble killing everyone left inside. Before you is a crying newborn baby in it's
hospital bassinet. Next to the baby is a container with 100 live embryos slated
for implantation into women. You can only carry one. Do you save the 100 embryos
or the baby?"

Yet another stupid hypothetical. The pro-abortion crowd is running out of material. Better to stick to the "war on women" meme.

Of course you take the live baby as the other embroyos can't feel pain or nearly as developed as the live baby. The live baby also presumably has living parents who procreated and sacrificed to bring that baby to full term.

leo707 says

No one, and certainly not "the bulk of the Democrat[s]", is arguing that
abortion should be "at any
time on demand."

Didn't the Democrats just try to filibuster limiting abortions to 20 weeks in Texas a few weeks ago? That law had exceptions for the health of the mother and baby. But even that common sense restriction is too much for the party of death that wants to use abortion as a form of contraception up through the 3rd trimester.

Our President voted against the born alive bill in the Illinois Senate that would have protected viable babies who survived abortion attempts.

As I said earlier, I sure as shit am not going to take any moral scolding from the Democrat party who still hold onto caveman beliefs that unborn babies are nothing more significant than a tumor.

socal2 says

Yet another stupid hypothetical.

OK, but it demonstrates that you would save 1 life over 100 lives.

socal2 says

Of course you take the live baby as the other embroyos can't feel pain or nearly as developed as the live baby.

Hmmm...what makes you think embryos can feel as much pain? Isn't a lot of your augment based on the idea that embryos feel pain?

So if there were 3 newborns that you could pile up in their arms vs. one 6 year-old; you would leave the new borns and save the one "more developed" 6 year-old?

socal2 says

The live baby also presumably has living parents who procreated and sacrificed to bring that baby to full term.

?

The embryos would have living parents who procreated and sacrificed to give them life. Are you saying that there is a difference between a full-term baby and an embryo, such that the embryo's life is worth less? Worth less than 1/100th of the life of a newborn?

What if it were 1,000 embryo's, are they still worth less than 1 newborn? 1,000,000 embryo's? How many embryo's would you need to save for it to be worth more than 1 newborn?

You wail and gnash your teeth at the though of 55,000,000 "babies" being murdered. You should put an asterisk next to that number that indicates the real value you put on all those lives is somewhere less than one living newborn baby.

socal2 says

Didn't the Democrats just try to filibuster limiting abortions to 20 weeks in Texas a few weeks ago?

OK, but this is not only a far cry from your claim that Democrats want "any time on demand" abortions.

socal2 says

But even that common sense restriction is too much for the party of death that wants to use abortion as a form of contraception up through the 3rd trimester.

Citation?

socal2 says

As I said earlier, I sure as shit am not going to take any moral scolding from the Democrat party who still hold onto caveman beliefs that unborn babies are nothing more significant than a tumor.

So, you feel you get the moral high-ground because you believe that unborn babies are slightly more significant than a tumor, but far...far less significant than an actual baby.

Funny...

leo707 says

Hmmm...what makes you think embryos can feel as much pain? Isn't a lot of your
augment based on the idea that embryos feel pain?

There are plenty of studies establishing when unborn babies can feel pain and their viability. That is how I make my determination in your goofy hypothetical.

Did you read any of the gruesome testimony of the Gosnell case where witnesses saw and heard babies crying during the partial birth abortions?

Do you favor any restrictions on abortion? Can a woman abort her baby a day before her due date? If not, why not?

leo707 says

What if it were 1,000 embryo's, are they still worth less than 1 newborn? 1,000,000 embryo's? How many embryo's would you need to save for it to be worth more than 1 newborn?

Please get back to me on this so we can crunch the numbers and see if you should recant your rantings and start fighting for the pro-choice camp.

Because -- as I am sure you know -- live birth is far more dangerous than legal abortion. By letting people have abortions you are reducing the number of people that die from child birth/pregnancy. If you can figure out how many embryos' death is worth saving one born live human then we can see if abortion should be morally justifies in your somewhat morally plastic view of the world.

leo707 says

Citation?

Why do you need a citation?

The national Democrat party are against ANY restrictions on our current abortion laws.

WTF do you think the whole "War on Women" meme is about?

God forbid the US be a bit more like those civilized Europeans and limit murdering our unborn babies once they reach viability.

leo707 says

Because -- as I am sure you know -- live birth is far more dangerous than legal
abortion.

Not for the baby. Nor is late term abortion safer for the Mother than giving birth, look at the Gosnell case and the women he killed.

You are simply incapable of even considering that there is another life at stake.

What are the major biological difference between a baby at 25 weeks in the womb and 36 weeks outside of the womb? Both babies are viable outside the womb but will need massive life nurturing assistance from the mother or State to survive.

I guess you can just rely on the out of sight out of mind defense and stay ignorant of human biology and development.

socal2 says

Do you favor any restrictions on abortion? Can a woman abort her baby a day before her due date? If not, why not?

Of course I do support restrictions on abortion, as do 99% of people.

As for the rest of your questions I think that Dan covers it pretty well in his abortion thread:
http://patrick.net/?p=1218980&page=1#comments

socal2 says

The national Democrat party are against ANY restrictions on our current abortion laws.

Assuming that this is true it is still a far cry from "on demand" abortions at any time.

socal2 says

Not for the baby.

The baby that you have admitted is worth to you some where less than 1/100th of a born living human.

I am curious how many embryos you would sacrifice to save one living born human.

Then we can quibble about when abortion is OK.

socal2 says

Nor is late term abortion safer for the Mother than giving birth, look at the Gosnell case and the women he killed.

Sure women die during abortions, but statistically far more women die during child birth. It is much more risky...

I eagerly await your answer on how many embryos you would let die to save a living born person.

leo707 says

Of course I do support restrictions on abortion, as do 99% of people.

Why do you support restrictions?

What's is your rational?

When do you draw the line?

socal2 says

leo707 says

Of course I do support restrictions on abortion, as do 99% of people.

Why do you support restrictions?

What's is your rational?

When do you draw the line?

leo707 says

As for the rest of your questions I think that Dan covers it pretty well in his abortion thread:

http://patrick.net/?p=1218980&page=1#comments

I eagerly await your answer on how many embryos you would let die to save a living born person.

I said it before and I will say it again. The best way to avoid having to make a "choice" is not to end up in this predicament in the first place. Use protection or better yet ahem finish up outside....

There are many problems with the whole abortion issue. Yes, abortion is technically murder and it is coldblooded to believe otherwise. However, the conservatives believe that we should teach people abstinence before marrage which is rather naive. Additionally, however many babies were aborted after rowe vs wade - we can clearly conclude that their parents didn't want them - what kind of life would they have had to be born to such callous parents? Also, crime and child abandonment would have obviously skyrocketed. Also, our economy is struggling as it is, could we have really cared for and provided for additional citizens via economic growth? Also, as horrific as abortion is, what stalin did was much much worse - murdered 20 millions soviet citizens - I know that some believe that it was him simply murdering political enemies because he was paranoid, but I believe that it was for more nefarious purposes - to send slave labor via gulags and remove surplus population from having to be fed.

As I said, the best thing to do is not to end up in this predicament. Use protection or finish up "outside." The DINKS who never had abortion are the true heroes, god bless them.

Dan8267 says

Republicans lie about science in order to confuse the public into believing that well-established scientific facts are still being openly debated. The purpose of these lies is to keep the government from solving urgent problem the Republicans don't want solved. As long as the illusion of debate persists, people are willing to postpone much needed action.

CaptainShuddup says

It must really suck that republicans keeps LIberal lies at bay enough to expose them as the fraud they are.

Climate change...

Thank you for demonstrating the point of the original post better than anyone could ask.

Dan, please watch this and respond. It is really long, but pretty cool.

http://www.kdlYP4svUAM&list=WL25B106E99C4BFA5D

leo707 says

Why do you support restrictions?

What's is your rational?

When do you draw the line?

leo707
says

As for the rest of your questions I think that Dan covers it pretty well in
his abortion thread:

Sorry Leo - can't be bothered to troll through another thread to get an answer from you.

Seriously, can you help me out and answer these questions?

Why do you support restrictions?

What's is your rational?

When do you draw the line?

dublin hillz says

There are many problems with the whole abortion issue. Yes, abortion is
technically murder and it is coldblooded to believe otherwise. However, the
conservatives believe that we should teach people abstinence before marrage
which is rather naive. Additionally, however many babies were aborted after rowe
vs wade - we can clearly conclude that their parents didn't want them - what
kind of life would they have had to be born to such callous parents?

Come on, the majority of Conservatives are not against contraception. Some have issues in forcing Catholic hospitals to provide contraception with Obamacare or having taxpayers provide it for free, but you will be hard pressed to find many Republicans who only support abstinence.

And what is wrong with adoption? There are millions of US families looking to adopt young American babies. I personally know 3 different families who had to go to Eastern Europe and China to adopt a young child. Yes - I know there are older kids in foster care who no one wants, but young healthy infants get piced up quick and is a great alternative to abortion - IMO.

socal2 says

Sorry Leo - can't be bothered to troll through another thread to get an answer from you.

Seriously, can you help me out and answer these questions?

When you can't be bothered to answer my simple question from this thread?

leo707 says

I eagerly await your answer on how many embryos you would let die to save a living born person.

We already have determined that you don't put the same value on the life of an unborn child as you put on a born living "more advanced" -- as you put -- human.

OK, I will make it simpler for you...

What would you drag out of a fire; 9091 embryos or a -- living, breathing, eating, talking, pleading for help -- live human?