patrick.net

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

When racial civil war breaks out, are you going to be properly equipped?

I live near Camp Bullis, a local military training post. I can hear machine fire on the weekends.

I still can't figure out why it's so important re: who provoked the fight.

It's more important to know if Zimmerman committed acts that a reasonable person would know would lead to someone getting injured or killed.

From that perspective(and make no mistake...that's what the legal standard is), TM is FAR more guilty than GZ is.

At least judging by the pictures..

Plus, Zimmerman provoking any fight is simply theory, or imagination at this point. The theory that prevailed in court was Zimmerman was walking back to his car when he was attacked, clearly making Trayvon the aggressor.

Putting aside everything that GZ has said, the hard evidence shows GZ with all the defensive wounds, and TM with all the offensive wounds.
Case Closed.
(to all but the guilt-ridden great great grandsons and daughters of the southern plantation owners )

marcus says

Total bullshit. Why do you believe TM attacked Zimmerman ?

Let me guess. "darrr. There was a fight. Zimmerman says MArtin attacked him. Therefore it is a fact that MArtin attacked him ?"

dodgerfanjohn says

I still can't figure out why it's so important re: who provoked the fight.

Because, both with natural human morals, and within the law intent is a big deal.

dodgerfanjohn says

It's more important to know if Zimmerman committed acts that a reasonable person would know would lead to someone getting injured or killed.

From that perspective(and make no mistake...that's what the legal standard is), TM is FAR more guilty than GZ is.

At least judging by the pictures..

?

So...what you are saying is that from the crime scene pictures of TM and Zim that it looks like TM was the one who committed acts that would more reasonably lead to killing someone?

You are joking right? You do realize that Trayvon is actually dead, but Zim is alive, right?

There has been a lot of bellyaching and whining about how Zim was being "convicted" in the media of crimes.

Zim got his day in court and it was shown that there was not enough evidence to prove that Zim had committed any crimes.

The hypocrisy is that all those that have been bellyaching about Zim being pre-convicted have themselves been convicting Trayvon of crimes, and TM will never get a day in court.

Yeah, TM's dead body and Zim's beaten face are shocking images, but it does matter how they got that way and who intended what. Unfortunately, we will never know what happened that night. We will never know if Trayvon's attack on Zim was unprovoked and/or unwarranted. We will never know if Zim actually was acting in self-defense or if it was Trayvon acting in self-defense.

Goran_K says

Plus, Zimmerman provoking any fight is simply theory, or imagination at this point. The theory that prevailed in court was Zimmerman was walking back to his car when he was attacked, clearly making Trayvon the aggressor.

The idea that TM was the aggressor who followed Zim back to his car was theory as well. In this case there were enough alternative theories that it gave the jury enough reasonable doubt.

Perhaps if TM was in the court room and Zim beaten to death there would have been enough reasonable doubt to release TM. We will never know.

SoftShell says

Case Closed.

Well...we will see how the civil case goes...but yeah case closed on the criminal proceedings.

SoftShell says

Putting aside everything that GZ has said, the hard evidence shows GZ with all the defensive wounds, and TM with all the offensive wounds.

That is one theory. How about another one -- We also know that TM was alive for a while after being shot through the heart. People have been known to act (and kill) for a short while after suffering a fatal heart wound. For all we know GZ was hit in the face after TM already was dieing.

We have speculative theories, but the only thing we know for sure is that there was not enough evidence to prove Zim committed a crime. We don't have any way of knowing what actually happened that night. Assuming that TM was guilty of anything is just like assuming Zim's guilt.

That's the whole ball of wax right there.

leo707 says

We will never know if Trayvon's attack on Zim was unprovoked and/or unwarranted. We will never know if Zim actually was acting in self-defense or if it was Trayvon acting in self-defense.

One can speculate on a multitude of theories.
But the one I listed below is the only one I can think of that is backed by hard evidence.

leo707 says

SoftShell says

Putting aside everything that GZ has said, the hard evidence shows GZ with all the defensive wounds, and TM with all the offensive wounds.

That is one theory.

Goran_K says

Moderate Infidel says

Hey, guess what - trials over. A month from now no one will give a shit.

I hope so. It was a made up narrative anyway. I'll chalk it up as a bad summer movie.

ZIMMERNADO

This summer, stand your ground. . . .

The only one backed by the evidence available shows Trayvon as the aggressor. Zimmerman had all the defensive injuries (broken nose, gashes on head), while Trayvon had all the offensive wounds (cuts below knuckles, etc).

Now it is possible that Zimmerman provoked the fight by pushing, or doing Aikido, or Jiu-jitsu, and just got thrown to the ground and beaten, but that's all speculation.

What we do know is even when Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, an eye witness, the closest out of the 8 witnesses called to the court about that night and generally accepted to have the best viewpoint outside of Zimmerman and Trayvon said that Trayvon was on top, while Zimmerman was yelling for help getting beat down. This witness even managed to ask Trayvon to get off of GZ or he was going to call the cops, and he didn't hear the shot until he was already in his 2nd story condo attempting to call 911.

That shows that Trayvon Martin had ample opportunity to stop the engagement regardless of how it started, but he didn't stop, and caught a bullet in the chest.

SoftShell says

One can speculate on a multitude of theories.

But the one I listed below is the only one I can think of that is backed by hard evidence.

The problem with looking at the wounds (let us not forget that TM did indeed receive a defensive wound that evening) is that is only part of the picture. How and why the wounds got there is much more important.

Did Zim get punched because he: brandished a gun; already shot TM; grabbed TM; tried to force TM to the ground; swung at TM; threatened to kill TM? There are many perfectly legitimate scenarios that could have lead to the same wound patterns. Scenarios that show either Zim or TM to be the aggressor. Hell, it could have been a legitimate misunderstanding where -- based on what they knew at the time -- neither party acted improperly (well, except for Zim disregarding 911s request that he not follow in the first place) and things just escalated out of control.

Goran_K says

Now it is possible that Zimmerman provoked the fight by pushing, or doing Aikido, or Jiu-jitsu, and just got thrown to the ground and beaten, but that's all speculation.

Maybe one day you will explain why it is more speculative that Martin caused the fight than that Zimmerman did.

Zimmerman's story is the only reason you have. The fact that Martin got in several good punches and Zimmerman did not does not prove that it was more likely Martin was the initial aggressor.

If anything, it is more likely that Zimmerman was the initial aggressor, considering that we know he thought Martin was an asshole burgler that was getting away. At a minimum he probably tried with force or threats to detain Martin. That was not his right (even if he was armed).

You don't care why the fight happened, you just think Duuu,...if him was beating hims ass then him okay to kill. It self defense because wounds on face. Wounds on evil guys hand. That proof me smart you stupid.

Then why didn't Trayvon get off of Zimmerman when he had ample opportunity? The closest eye witness account shows that Trayvon continued to beat Zimmerman even after being asked to get off, and the witness threatening to call the cops.

Doesn't have the ring of "someone trying to defend himself", sounds like someone was trying to take a piece of flesh and had some blood lust going.

Goran_K says

What we do know is even when Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, an eye witness, the closest out of the 8 witnesses called to the court about that night and generally accepted to have the best viewpoint outside of Zimmerman and Trayvon said that Trayvon was on top, while Zimmerman was yelling for help getting beat down.

While eye witnesses are the most trusted source they are also notoriously "mistaken" in what they see. Other eye witnesses put Zim on top.

Goran_K says

while Trayvon had all the offensive wounds (cuts below knuckles, etc).

Yes, Trayvon had one small cut to his hand.

Goran_K says

Zimmerman had all the defensive injuries (broken nose, gashes on head)

Yes, and they were consistent with someone being hit perhaps two or three times. Not the life threatening beating that Zim described.

I am not saying that TM did not act aggressively that night, but we just don't know how justified his actions were or were not.

Goran_K says

Then why didn't Trayvon get off of Zimmerman when he had ample opportunity? The closest eye witness account shows that Trayvon continued to beat Zimmerman even after being asked to get off, and the witness threatening to call the cops.

MAybe because he knew or thought that if he did, Zimmerman was going to shoot him. That is if it's even true.

marcus says

Maybe one day you will explain why it is more speculative that Martin caused the fight than that Zimmerman did.

leo707 says

Yes, and they were consistent with someone being hit perhaps two or three times. Not the life threatening beating that Zim described.

Speculation.

How do you know how many times it takes to break a nose? Or causes the gashes that Zimmerman had?

Stop interjecting your "amateur investigator" analysis, and stick to the facts.

Ignore te multiple wounds on the back of the head much?

Goran_K says

Doesn't have the ring of "someone trying to defend himself", sounds like someone was trying to take a piece of flesh and had some blood lust going.

Or he could have been in the "fight" part of fight-or-flight, just focused on the fight not really hearing what else was going on around him.

Goran_K says

Then why didn't Trayvon get off of Zimmerman when he had ample opportunity?

TM only actually landed a couple of punches on Zim. Maybe at that point he was just trying to hold him down. Maybe he was getting off Zim and then was shot when Zim's hands got free enough to grab his gun. Zim's expert did say that TM might have been moving away when he was shot. Maybe he saw the gun and did not want to get off Zim.

A lot of maybes, we will never know, but one thing for sure is that we can't say "with out reasonable doubt" that TM was an aggressor that was trying to -- or even would have -- killed Zim intentionally or otherwise.

Goran_K says

Speculation.

Yeah, at this point it is all speculation. TM will never have a day in court to try and prove otherwise. Are you suggesting that we should assume TM's guilt?

Goran_K says

How do you know how many times it takes to break a nose?

Well...I have broken a nose with one strike before...

But, what resulted in Zim's injuries is not my opinion, but the opinions of the experts who testified during the trial.

Goran_K says

Stop interjecting your "amateur investigator" analysis, and stick to the facts.

You mean facts like the expert witnesses from the trial, the autopsy reports, etc.

Well, that is what I have been doing...

dodgerfanjohn says

Ignore te multiple wounds on the back of the head much?

Nope, they were most likely not the result TM holding Zim's head and pounding it on concrete. I have -- as I am sure that all the other "amateur investigators" here have -- read the DNA report and am familiar with the what the expert witnesses have said.

Zim indeed had a couple of small non-life threatening wounds to the back of his head.

What of it? Sure his head may have hit the concrete when he was on the ground.

leo707 says

While eye witnesses are the most trusted source they are also notoriously "mistaken" in what they see. Other eye witnesses put Zim on top.

This is John Good, he had the CLOSEST eye witness account of the entire set of witnesses called into court. He correctly identified Zimmerman's jacket color (before Zimmerman was booked), and said he saw "the guy with the red or light red colored jacket on his back (GZ) and the guy with the dark colored jacket on top (Trayvon)". No other witness was able to give as accurate details about both Trayvon and Zimmerman during the trial as John Good did.

Here is his over 2 hour testimony given to the court:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/DsdLMBUvhAM

Some of his eye witness accounts of that night:

- The Guy on the bottom was the light skinned guy.
- The guy on top was straddling (Zimmerman), with his legs straddling the lower part (of GZ's body).
- It looked like there were lots of arm movements (from the guy on top) going downward, striking movements. Not just once, but multiple times.
- At first I said, "What's going on?!" No one answered.
- Finally at some point I could hear the person on the bottom (GZ) calling for help.
- I asked them to "Cut it out or I'm going to call 911".
- I thought it was getting really serious (the fight).
- When I went upstairs to call 911 I heard the shot, a loud pop.

Pretty hard to argue that:

1) Trayvon wasn't the aggressor in a dominant position to injure or seriously hurt Zimmerman.
2) Trayvon didn't have ample time to get off Zimmerman because Trayvon kept punching during the time when John Good asked him to cut it out, and the entire time it took for him to walk all the way back to his condo, go upstairs, and attempt to call 911.

3) Trayvon was at anytime asking for help, it was clearly the guy on the bottom (Zimmerman).

Trayvon at any point before John Good got to his upstairs condo could have simply run, he already beat Zimmerman in the fight, or simply disengaged and stop punching Zimmerman's head into the concrete.

Many observers of the trial thought that John Good's testimony was the beginning of the end for the prosecution because it clearly proved that Trayvon had a chance to disengage but chose not to so he could inflict more damage on Zimmerman. That's hard to reconcile with the innocent, scared, skittles loving teenager who was "trying to get away", squeaky clean image some have tried to paint of Trayvon.

But why discuss facts, when you can make shit up about Trayvon only punching Zimmerman two times, or him using "aikido" moves to trap Trayvon. I guess it's more fun to play fantasy than actually address facts, right?

Goran_K says

Many observers of the trial thought that John Good's testimony was the beginning of the end for the prosecution.

I don't doubt this, I just don't have an automatic trust for eye-witnesses.

This is just a quick overview about some of the problems:
http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm

I am not saying that I totally would discount it, but we know from other forensic evidence that what John Good thought he saw was not the complete picture.

JG did not see how it started. He did not see if Zim was every on top. He did not see what happened just before the shooting.

A lot of the truth could be in what Mr. Good missed.

Thanks for the long detailed post. I wish I could have gone into more detail, but I have to head home early before the protests start happening in downtown Oakland. ;)

All I am saying is that, just like for Zim, the idea that TM instigated his own shooting is not a forgone conclusion, and based on the same level of speculation that "convicted" Zim before his trial.

I agree eye witness testimony can be dodgy at times, but if you actually watch the entire 2 hour testimony of John Good, it's clear he doesn't try to elaborate or add extra details when he's asked a question by either side. His answers were all direct and to the point, and out of all the witness testimony, he had the only close up account of what happened during the fight.

No, he didn't see what lead to the fight (he only heard that), and he didn't see how the fight ended (but he did say he saw Trayvon lying dead on the ground after the shot from his upstairs window).

What we can say for certain is, Trayvon had plenty of opportunity to escape from Zimmerman (as much as you can escape from someone you are beating into a pulp into the ground), and he never took that chance, and he ended up paying with his life for that mistake.

Goran_K says

What we can say for certain is, Trayvon had plenty of opportunity to escape from Zimmerman (as much as you can escape from someone you are beating into a pulp into the ground), and he never took that chance, and he ended up paying with his life for that mistake.

What we don't know is that there may have been times where TM did not have opportunity to escape, but yeah he did have chances where he could have got away. Anyway in Florida one does not have to try and "escape" from soneone else. I am not sure if TM knew that but Zim defiantly did. Also, Zimmerman also had plenty of chances to "getaway" from Trayvon.

When Good was going to make the call what did Trayvon do? Sure it is likely that he continued to struggle with Zim, but we don't now that for sure. Zim walked away looking pretty good if he was being subject to a sustained ground-and-pound. So, even if TM stayed on top he was not landing many blows. We know there was probably no struggle for the gun. Did TM getup to leave before the police arrived? Did this give Zim a chance to draw and fire?

So, there was a definite -- well sort of -- end date to the "official" decision on the evidence against Zimmerman, but no such date for the evidence against Trayvon...

leo707 says

The problem with looking at the wounds (let us not forget that TM did indeed receive a defensive wound that evening)

I classify the gunshot wound as neither offensive or defensive. It's the fatal wound that ended the confrontation.

Agreed that the scarcity of evidence as to how and in what order the wounds were inflicted is in doubt. However, that is all the hard evidence there is for that timeframe.

It's not enough to convict TM or GZ of anything. But it is the only hard evidence available for the actual fight, along with the eyewitnesses conflicting reports. So if one were to attempt to draw a conclusion on the hard facts they would have to be leaning towards exonerating GZ.

I think you are a smart person. I can tell from your numerous in depth posts on other subjects. But you certainly have a huge blind spot when it comes to this thread. You are asking questions below that have been answered ad nauseum. You are either just playing dumb for argumentative purposes, or are a fascinating case study in racial bias.

marcus says

Maybe one day you will explain why it is more speculative that Martin caused the fight than that Zimmerman did.

Zimmerman's story is the only reason you have

Interesting. If that was the case then I imagine TM had a lot of regret while holding down GZ in the last moments of his life. Regret for taking the offensive....regret for not just going to his father's girlfriends home in the 4 minutes he had available to cover 50 yards...regret for breaking GZ's nose....regret for pounding GZ's head into the cement...regret that he wished he actually "had limits"....And all the while knowing the second he let GZ up he was gonna be shot. That's a nasty image to conjure up.

marcus says

MAybe because he knew or thought that if he did, Zimmerman was going to shoot him. That is if it's even true.

Not at all.
I am suggesting, by the same token, that we should not assume GZ was guilty.

leo707 says

Are you suggesting that we should assume TM's guilt?

Exactly And if you do not defend yourself and you wind up dead, the crowd will have it's proof, but your life is required as evidence.

And thus was born the concept of "self-defense".

leo707 says

but one thing for sure is that we can't say "with out reasonable doubt" that TM was an aggressor that was trying to -- or even would have -- killed Zim intentionally or otherwise.

SoftShell says

It's not enough to convict TM or GZ of anything. But it is the only hard evidence available for the actual fight, along with the eyewitnesses conflicting reports. So if one were to attempt to draw a conclusion on the hard facts they would have to be leaning towards exonerating GZ.

Apparently enough -- or rather a lack there of -- evidence to convict. I think that if TM had killed GZ with a punch, and had the same legal defense, there would not have been enough evidence to convict TM either.

SoftShell says

I classify the gunshot wound as neither offensive or defensive. It's the fatal wound that ended the confrontation.

So...if a punch from Trayvon had ended the confrontation by killing Zimmerman then that would not have been offensive?

Goran_K says

I guess it's more fun to play fantasy than actually address facts, right?

Which you prove repeatedly. You still haven't addressed how the fight started. Why did Martin feel so threatened, that he fought like that. Could it be he feared for his life, and new that Zimmerman had a gun.

This is fantasy speculation ? I think not.

The idea that Martin just attacked Zimmerman for no reason ? Now that's wild fantasy speculation.

Goran_K says

What we can say for certain is, Trayvon had plenty of opportunity to escape from Zimmerman (as much as you can escape from someone you are beating into a pulp into the ground)

How do you figure ? It was probably when he tried to escape that he was shot.

Here's a great comment from reddit.

Dear George Zimmerman, For the rest of your life you are now going to feel what its like to be a black man in America. You will feel people stare at you. Judging you for what you think are unfair reasons. You will lose out on getting jobs for something you feel is outside your control. You will believe yourself to be an upstanding citizen and wonder why people choose to not see that.
People will cross the street when they see you coming. They will call you hurtful names. It will drive you so insane some days that you’ll want to scream at the top of your lungs. But you will have to wake up the next day, put on a firm look and push through life.
I bet you never thought that by shooting a black male you’d end up inheriting all of his struggles.
Enjoy your “freedom”. Sincerely, A black male who could’ve been Trayvon Martin Author: Alex Fraser

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1i92i8/its_official_george_zimmerman_not_guilty/

A lot of good comments there from intelligent people

leo707 says

Apparently enough -- or rather a lack there of -- evidence to convict. I think that if TM had killed GZ with a punch, and had the same legal defense, there would not have been enough evidence to convict TM either.

Agreed.

leo707 says

SoftShell says

I classify the gunshot wound as neither offensive or defensive. It's the fatal wound that ended the confrontation.

So...if a punch from Trayvon had ended the confrontation by killing Zimmerman then that would not have been offensive?

The offensive and defensive wounds I was referring to are the ones inflicted by the hands of the opponents. I look at the gunshot as neither defensive or offensive, but the fight ending life saving life killing final wound.

Another

I can't imagine trying to go back to a normal life when half the nation thinks you're a murderer and the other half thinks you're just a killer (in self defense, of course).
What are the odds that GZ is "self defensed" (murdered), develops a debilitating anxiety disorder or commits suicide within the next few years? Seriously, think what his life will be like. If he goes in a public restroom, he'll be deathly afraid someone will "self defense" him while he's standing in front of a urinal:
"He seemed suspicious and was reaching for something. I know his history and felt I was in imminent danger..."
I would argue, "it" is most certainly over for GZ. His tortured existence is justice.

Why are you racist Marcus?

marcus says

Why did Martin feel so threatened, that he fought like that. Could it be he feared for his life, and new that Zimmerman had a gun.

No. The Coroner's report indicates TM was high on drugs. Drugs often produce paranoia.

marcus says

This is fantasy speculation ? I think not.

The idea that Martin just attacked Zimmerman for no reason ? Now that's wild fantasy speculation.

Maybe not "fantasy", but certainly speculation. Right now all we have is speculation trying to fill in the gaps of what happened that night. A jury made it clear that we just don't have the evidence to know for sure what happened.

Either pro-Zim or anti-Zim there is not a lot of speculation here that is not in some way consistent with the evidence. Just different imaginings of what happened during the gaps.

marcus says

Goran_K says

What we can say for certain is, Trayvon had plenty of opportunity to escape from Zimmerman (as much as you can escape from someone you are beating into a pulp into the ground)

How do you figure ? It was probably when he tried to escape that he was shot.

Yep, the scenario where TM tries to break away from Zim then gets shot is one of the many "likely" scenarios.

SoftShell says

The offensive and defensive wounds I was referring to are the ones inflicted by the hands of the opponents. I look at the gunshot as neither defensive or offensive, but the fight ending life saving life killing final wound.

I guess I don't get your reasoning, but OK.

leo707 says

Either pro-Zim or anti-Zim there is not a lot of speculation here that is not in some way consistent with the evidence. Just different imaginings of what happened during the gaps.

Keep dreaming.

Yep, the scenario where TM tries to break away from Zim then gets shot is one of the many "likely" scenarios.

That would have the entry and exit wounds on the wrong sides of the body.