patrick.net

Heraclitusstudent says

Everything you are will disappear after a short life spent going after lame luxuries and enjoying freedom - alone.

Modern humans differ from each other genetically by less than one part in a thousand. That's 0.1%. That's what you're fighting for. Actually, it's 0.05% since you only contribute half the genetic code.

The vast majority of your genes will be passed along regardless of whether or not you reproduce. As for the tiny ass amount that you uniquely posses, let's say you have four kids. That's four kids in a world whose population is about 3 billion persons per generation.

Congratulations, all that time, effort, and sacrifice you have done allowed you to contribute 0.05% * 4 / 3,000,000,000 or 6.7 * 10^-13th of the human genome. That's 0.000000000067% of the genetic material for a generation.

Is your finite life worth so little that it should be spent servicing a handful of selfish genes that act like parasites inside you? Given such a finite time we have in life, I'd rather live life to the fullest than simply serve a bunch of genes that have little to do with who I am.

Reproduction is not immortality. Even if your genes are passed on, they are swallowed up in the sea of other genes and eventually are removed in favor of other genes. True immortality comes from making the world a better place through scientific or technological advancement, social reforms, spreading of good ideas, creation of art. And even then, immortality is not nearly as important as making the most of your finite life. Simply being a slave to mindless genes is not making the most of your life.

Ceffer says

The fact is if you have descendants and any of them manage to reproduce out four generations, there is no individual who will be carrying any more than 1/32 of your genes, and of course, fewer in later generations.

That's an argument that works at the individual level. If enough of you believe it, your RACE will be weeded out. If all smart educated people stop having kids, what will remain is a populace of imbeciles having 4-5 children because they don't know how sex works.

We are here today because for millions of generations our ancestors did the effort to have offsprings, feed them and care for them. To throw all of this away - in what is a flash by historical times - just to enjoy "your lifestyle" is an act of monumental egoism as far as I can tell.

Dan8267 says

What's your sources on these statistics?

http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/whistling-through-the-graveyard/

Oxygen says

Dan8267 says

What's your sources on these statistics?

http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/whistling-through-the-graveyard/

the most relevant part (to me) is the section "The impact of hookup culture on future divorce rates"

I have no idea why there is all this hoopla of leaving a legacy. it's merely confirmation bias molded to fit the "i need something to justify me having kids" notion. if your brother has kids, your bloodline is extended. YOU dont need to have kids.

Heraclitusstudent says

That's an argument that works at the individual level. If enough of you believe it, your RACE will be weeded out.

Oh honey, it's not just your race that will be weeded out, it's your entire species. Think about all your ancestors going all the way back to single cell organism. Your ancestors were members of thousands of species that no longer exist.

Even without genetic manipulation, human beings as they exist today, won't be around in a million years. Our descendents, if we haven't destroyed ourselves, will be a different species and whether or not you have kids will have almost no impact whatsoever on what they are.

Add in genetic manipulation and designer babies and your inherited genetic code makes even less of a difference.

And if our species invents a platform to which we can download our minds, it's all over for biological reproduction of our species.

Heraclitusstudent says

We are here today because for millions of generations our ancestors did the effort to have offsprings, feed them and care for them. To throw all of this away - in what is a flash by historical times - just to enjoy "your lifestyle" is an act of monumental egoism as far as I can tell.

With a population approaching 10.1 billion, I'd say that becoming a parent is the most selfish and egotistical thing a person can do. When our species is endangered of going extinct due to low numbers, I'll agree with your statement. But that hasn't been the case in over 20,000 years. If anything, overpopulation is more likely to trigger an extinction event like nuclear war or ecological collapse.

Dan8267 says

With a population approaching 10.1 billion, I'd say that becoming a parent is the most selfish and egotistical thing a person can do.

unfortunately, only the people who should be having kids think this way.

This is such a sad, small, limp penis thread.

Dan8267 says

human beings as they exist today, won't be around in a million years.

True. And that leaves the time in-between.
In the big scheme of things you can always say that nothing at all can matter at all: life cannot be destroyed and given 500 millions years a new species will arise later and succeed where we failed. Yet there are things that seem to matter enough to you to argue about it on Internet.

Dan8267 says

making the world a better place through scientific or technological advancement, social reforms, spreading of good ideas, creation of art.

That's not just your genes. It's your memes too - since you love Dawkin.
That answers the designer babies and computer uploads too.

Dan8267 says

With a population approaching 10.1 billion, I'd say that becoming a parent is the most selfish and egotistical thing a person can do.

That's worse in case it's left up to an uneducated 10 billions. Then it will be 15 billions.
I wouldn't worry too much about over-population: mother earth will take care of it the old way, via starvation, plagues and war. 100% of people that remain will be descendants of people that live now.

Heraclitusstudent says

In the big scheme of things you can always say that nothing at all can matter at all:

Actually, what I would say is that seeking genetic immortality is a waste of the precious finite time you have. Instead, what matters is how you spend the time you have. Did you live a fulfilling life? If you did, then that lifetime will always exist as a thread in the space-time continuum and will always be meaningful.

Heraclitusstudent says

It's your memes too - since you love Dawkin.

Great, so the meaning of my life is reduced to Grumpy Cat.

Heraclitusstudent says

I wouldn't worry too much about over-population: mother earth will take care of it the old way, via starvation, plagues and war.

And that would be what we rationalist would prefer to avoid.

Dan8267 says

Actually, what I would say is that seeking genetic immortality is a waste of the precious finite time you have. Instead, what matters is how you spend the time you have. Did you live a fulfilling life?

Most parents seem to think this job is fairly fulfilling by itself. People don't have kids for sex, nor for an illusion of personal immortality. So I guess they could agree with you.

But is there anything greater than yourself and your fulfilling life? Like a society around you, that requires to perpetuating? And if so are the costs involved beneath you and to be left to other people?

Heraclitusstudent says

Most parents seem to think this job is fairly fulfilling by itself.

And if that's what a person wants fine. But there is no civil duty to become a parent.

Heraclitusstudent says

But is there anything greater than yourself and your fulfilling life?

Sure. Adopting a puppy from a shelter, proving a scientific theory or mathematical theorem, contributing to the construction great wonder of the world like the Internet, adding a teaspoon of knowledge to mankind that eventually leads to the cure for cancer, spreading an idea that averts a war, creating a musical score that inspires for generations, taking care of an elderly parent, improving the safety of cars, spending time with those you care about.

Just to name but a few of the things that are worth spending the finite time you have in existence...

Dan8267 says

And if that's what a person wants fine. But there is no civil duty to become a parent.

That makes sense provided it's a small fraction of people that opt out, rather than a large share. (I saw statistics of 40% of working women not having kids at 40)

Since healthcare jobs will be the only jobs, in a post Obacalypse world. May these kids that you Libs so hatefully despise spit in your porridge while they care for you in the mandated Pelosi Senior labor camps.

Dan8267 says

Add in genetic manipulation and designer babies and your inherited genetic code makes even less of a difference.

Just think of the genetic mutations that people will insist on having if this is allowed! Just like with pets, I suspect that the people wanting designer babies will want ones that can't live without some form of assistance. I'm thinking of things like Munchkin or hairless cat type of thing.

Excuse me, but this thread needs to be retitled "Patrick.net Misogyny".

Indiana Jones says

Excuse me, but this thread needs to be retitled "Patrick.net Misogyny".

No, you're thinking of this thread. Men sticking up for human and civil rights of all people including other men is exactly not misogyny.

There are a lot of abuses of women in our society, especially by criminal police. The outrage of men at the family court system is not an abuse of women. And ultimately, such an unjust court system hurts women because it prevents men from marrying and it harms all the male descendants of women. So it's a lose/lose/lose situation.

Granted, there are a bunch of things said in this thread that I disagree with, but that doesn't make it misogyny.

Indy, I consider myself a feminist. I know that lotsa the generalizations they wrote here are not fair.

But there is some truth to some of it. There's a lot of high maintenance Princess type play the gender card attitude to go around.

curious2 says

others are old chestnuts.

True, MershedPerturders does come off as misogynistic, but I thought I had rebuked his points thoroughly and indisputably. I don't think that most of the comments made in this thread are anti-women but rather anti-privilege. And really, that's the definition of equality.

curious2 has a beef with me. She just coughs up old feminist garbage and pretends to be rational and judicious. Feminists are currently in a defend-and-hold pattern, soon to give way to a retreat pattern.

Here's a fun article I ran into today. People are cracking: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/12/professors-appalling-tweets-after-apparent-meltdown-i-fued-porn-stars-i-met-through-class/

Dan8267 says

MershedPerturders does come off as misogynistic

it's only misogyny if you define misogyny and any kind of criticism of Feminism.

the whole thing is just falling apart. I doesnt offer ANYTHING, not even happiness for women. Women can't find happiness on their own, it's been proven. They NEED a man to tell them what to do. Of course they're never going to admit this publicly, but look at any women's magazine or literature and you will see this subconscious desire coloring everything.

don't listen to these brats if you really want to understand women. They don't even understand themselves.

rooemoore says

What happens to your theory when woman make more money and pay more taxes then men? We are on the path to that becoming a reality by the next generation.

we are on no such path.

I notice all the Sci-Fi movies for instance show a future where women are doing all these important risky things like exploring other planets, etc. When have you ever met a women who would be capable of such a thing? How would women do their hair, take their 4 showers a day, powder their crotch and whatever other crap American women do to make themselves appear desirable? It's BULLSHIT. You believe that the last 30 years are some kind of break in the order of humanity and the next 2000 years moving forwards are going to be some sort of paradise for women and slavery for men? This system has an expiration date of 10 years tops.

Notice every year it gets more ridiculous as they constantly try to debug the system that was never thought to be workable in the first place. It was never intended to deliver prosperity, equality or satisfaction. It has actually reversed all those things. It was a ploy by elites to degrade family units so they could install other programs.

MershedPerturders says

we are on no such path.

The pink represents women % in college and grad school. This chart is 13 years old. The trend has continued. Go ahead and google "men vs women in higher education".

the number of women in higher education is not an indicator of how intelligent they are.

as has been shown many times, the entire system has been designed around the accreditation and even support of 'minorities' and women. It is not a statistical anomaly that this expansion of women students coincided with a complete collapse in academic standards, ethics standards at college, costs of education, and perceived value of education.

Women turned both the workplace and the University into a romper room for adults who simply collect money by merit of their government sanctioned position.

what is likely to happen to the world of feminism is it will die along with our current financial system. It's simply antithetical to efficiency, profit, even psychological health.

MershedPerturders says

the number of women in higher education is not an indicator of how intelligent they are.

How about the fact that they now are higher on IQ tests?

rooemoore says

What about female MD's and lawyers?

two professional sectors that have also degraded beyond recognition since the advent of 'equal opportunity'.

Women simply don't have a sense of general responsibility. This has generated an environment of complete indifference and thus degraded the standards to a point where the field isn't even recognizable anymore. People argue endlessly about how to manage the economics of healthcare, when none of the discuss the real problem. The real problem is complete lack of professional standards. If doctors would resist practices and methods that cause harm to patients, we would have far less problems with our medical system. Women simply don't have this sense of responsibility, it's not built into their basic psychological framework. They naturally think of themselves- it purely biological.

Any time you see a woman in charge of anything, then things have gone wrong. This fully explains our current state of affairs in America and the west.

rooemoore says

MershedPerturders says

the number of women in higher education is not an indicator of how intelligent they are.

How about the fact that they now are higher on IQ tests?

did they redesign the IQ tests too?

one must be naturally skeptical after several decades of this subterfuge.

I'll go back to one of my initial statements: if women are so f-ing brilliant, why dont' they form their own awesome businesses and take on the men? YOU NEVER SEE THEM DO THIS. Actually you never see them do ANYTHING on their own. The more 'liberated' a woman is, the LESS she wants to be around other women, because 'liberation' isnt' about independence it's about exploiting MEN.

Do I have the right to discount practically everything the feminist movement produces as evidence?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/4HRUEqyZ7p8

http://endofmen.wordpress.com/2007/11/08/why-feminism-is-a-fraud/

"Feminism, Socialism, and Communism are one in the same, and Socialist/Communist government is the goal of feminism." - Catharine A. MacKinnon, Toward a Feminist Theory of the State

rooemoore says

(I especially love his use of capital letters. You can practically see the veins bulging in his geezer neck.)

just to show you how totally off you are, I am not a senior citizen. Men are DROPPING out of the system. It's got women very concerned which is why you find them frantically defending these points. They are not going to get marriage, or really any level of compliance from men at all. Once Men's Rights activists get more organized, even the state run programs are going to be dismantled. At this point I can't imagine how we can afford to keep them running. The barrier really is in identifying the problem. We see the problem as 'inefficiencies' but really the reason for much of the corruption is because we have people in these organizations who are not being held responsible for their positions. They are unanimously women.

http://www.wnd.com/2013/06/39783/

MershedPerturders says

you must be kidding me.

I am kidding you. I could never take you seriously.

The female graduate school statistics have been achieved through extremely heavy subsidizing. The majority of fellowships available in graduate school are targeted for "women and minorities".

In many graduate schools, women are offered 30k in cash, free tuition, and health insurance to attend a graduate school program. Meanwhile, their male counterparts can often be offered nothing.

I was involved in writing several fellowship grants for my university. We had one program director who's contribution to every single grant we wrote to insert the words "women and minorities" within every page because it probably tripled the odds of our grant getting approved by the NIH or NSF.

What I often found was that the best females who were obtaining Phd's in science or engineering fields were left to fend for themselves while the administration shuffled in a bunch of incompetent females into the fellowship positions to bolster their diversity numbers further. It was a crime to the girls that truly deserved those awards over anyone else.

theoakman says

What I often found was that the best females who were obtaining Phd's in science or engineering fields were left to fend for themselves while the administration shuffled in a bunch of incompetent females into the fellowship positions to bolster their diversity numbers further. It was a crime to the girls that truly deserved those awards over anyone else.

same thing happened in Medical. They effectively flooded the field with useless bimbos.

Holy "Cow" I was going to share some opinions here as I agree with both sides on this topic but that fricken American Taliban showed up on this thread.

Looks like a Princess drew him in.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Looks like a Princess drew him in.

BACAH, are you white?

looks like youre employing the typical defense of the liberal political platform that most 'minorities' employ by exaggerating the opposition and playing up women's shortcomings and insecurities. The typical PIMP social pattern.

marcus says

There has been a lag in realizing that woman can do Math, programming, and engineering too, although women are so far less likely to choose to stay on that path. Part of the reason is that there are a lot of women that go through engineering programs, only to be directed towards management or tangential jobs that involve more collaboration and communication.

As an engineer I'm always annoyed when I see the media looking hard for that one girl that is good at it and can be pushed forward as a role model. (and correspondingly avoiding boys with similar or greater achievements).

Not that women can't do it, but there are more women pushing for equality and looking for that role model than there are women actually willing to log thousands of hours with their noses stuck into the guts of a computer.
It's cold and not very emotionally satisfying.

And if women claim equality but are unwilling to be the nerds, what is their credibility?

marcus says

Between 1989 and 2008, the approximate percentages of women receiving their Bachelor’s degree in any engineering field were 17% and 19.6%, respectively. The percentage increase in the computer science industry displayed was larger, increasing from approximately 10% in 1989 to 21% in 2008.

If half the energy spent by women pushing for equality in engineering was spent actually studying engineering, there would have been 50+% women engineers for decades.

Heraclitusstudent says

And if women claim equality but are unwilling to be the nerds, what is their credibility?

for a while we were seeing women trying to get 'managerial' roles in technical projects, but typically the engineers can't stand them because they know precisely nothing about the products, and they are easily manipulated and the group dynamics break down quickly.

One experience I had was with a laughable woman 'CEO' that got her money through some 'women entrepreneur' grant. Did she hire women? only one or two in key visible positions. The engineers despised her and just basically played along to get paid. She had basically spent much of her working life in these positions as a 20 something paid to sit around and look good, but she believed(she was probably told this) that she was there because she was good at her job. This expanded her ego, but the moment she was put into a real risk-taking position, she was hilariously inept. She responded to a string of failures by morphing into the most hideously manipulative bitch I've ever had to be around, this in turn scared off the useful people resulting in being surrounded by worthless sycophants and bullshit artists. Guess what happened next?

yes these are the results of 'gender equality'. Fact was this person should have been home spending time with her kids and not trying to play CEO. I believe the whole episode ended with her divorce from her husband. Of course this woman will not be held responsible for the debt she incurred because the 'women entrepreneur' grant does not require that she actually succeed at business, only that she act and look the part of a 'women entrepreneur'.

MershedPerturders says

for a while we were seeing women trying to get 'managerial' roles in technical projects, but typically the engineers can't stand them because they know precisely nothing about the products, and they are easily manipulated and the group dynamics break down quickly.

That's BS as well. I know a lot of women engineers and they are as competent as men and as considered in the team.

I see a lot of women engineers immigrating from China in particular because they have more gender equality there - though less feminist rhetoric.

I think it's somewhat true about less women either entering engineering or staying with it after completing an engineering program. But I don't know what the conclusion is from that. Maybe part of it was doors not being as open to them and or perception of women as being less capable.

I'm a Math teacher who every year sees close to as many and often more girls and young women being successful in math than boys and young men. And yet deep down, I think I'm still prejudiced against women.

Especially if she is attractive and you know, a girly girl. Then I'm likely (on some level) to be surprised if she has a super high Math aptitude and super high performance in my class.

Ask yourself. Put yourself back in college or your twenties, and you meet an extremely attractive and very feminine woman. Is it easy for you to see a possibility that she's more intelligent than you ? That is not just with knowledge, but with reasoning ?

I can see that prejudice that exists, and even a very weird psychology, or need to feel intellectually superior (or certainly equal at a minimum) making the boys club of the engineering world, very difficult for a talented young woman to navigate.