patrick.net

Dan8267 says

Perhaps big business, afraid of losing intellectual property and trade secrets, will be the downfall of the NSA.

Haha!

Dan8267 says

Perhaps big business, afraid of losing intellectual property and trade secrets, will be the downfall of the NSA.

I would think big US companies don't care about US spying.

However big US tech companies probably care that they will lose billions in sales abroad:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-10/nsa-spying-seen-risking-billions-in-u-s-technology-sales.html

Hey, it's only a crime if it's illegal!

freak80 says

Hey, it's only a crime if it's illegal!

It's only crime if it's committed by those who are not in charge.

freak80 says

Hey, it's only a crime if it's illegal!

It is illegal under the highest law of our land, the Constitution. We need to start enforcing that law again with criminal prosecutions.

Lol...since when did the constitution matter? Money is the highest law of our land!

Dan8267 says

freak80 says

Hey, it's only a crime if it's illegal!

It is illegal under the highest law of our land, the Constitution. We need to start enforcing that law again with criminal prosecutions.

Do you still believe in Santa Claus also? The highest law of our land is money.

Dan8267 says

NSA engaged in economic espionage, cyberterrorism, and other crimes

you mean counter-espionage and counter-cyperterrorism...

when criminals / terrorists started using the internet, libs like you looked the other way.. when law enforcement started loging on and arresting them for crimes you call it crimes.

laughable... i guess you wouldnt allow highway patrols either to stop speeders and narco-runners.

Dan8267 says

It is illegal under the highest law of our land, the Constitution. We need to start enforcing that law again with criminal prosecutions.

No its not !

Heraclitusstudent says

I would think big US companies don't care about US spying.

However big US tech companies probably care that they will lose billions in sales abroad:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-10/nsa-spying-seen-risking-billions-in-u-s-technology-sales.html

You gotta hand it to journalist.. the article should point out why its better to build
telecom products in the USA and not in China. Just another toxic product coming out of China.

Your better off having the NSA stopping state sponsored hackers in North Korea, Iran, China, Russia and other unfriendly nations than allowing these to continue to exist.

As i said a few months now, USA made telecom may be more expensive but at least it wont be hacked.

Dan8267 says

Perhaps big business, afraid of losing intellectual property and trade
secrets, will be the downfall of the NSA.

That's why they(NSA) do it.

Remeber the good ole days when........if you aren't doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about

bob2356 says

Do you still believe in Santa Claus also? The highest law of our land is money.

Where you and I differ is that I would advocate changing that.

Dan8267 says

bob2356 says

Do you still believe in Santa Claus also? The highest law of our land is money.

Where you and I differ is that I would advocate changing that.

I actively advocated changing that for 30 years by being involved in the election process as a volunteer and party supporter. Then George Bush got elected. This made me realize that there was no hope whatsoever, the system is broken and the unstoppable course of decay just has to work it's way through until some major event resets the system. I do hold other citizenships now just in case things really go to crap fast and I have to bail totally.

Remind me much time you've spent trying to make change? Running you mouth on patnet doesn't count.

Dan8267 says

I would advocate changing that.

So would everyone. But how will that ever happen? Everybody likes money!

thomaswong.1986 says

the article should point out why its better to build

telecom products in the USA and not in China. Just another toxic product coming out of China.

Right. You're thinking like all that matters is the US.

What do you think countries like Germany, France, India, Brazil, Russia will do now?

Will they continue to buy Microsoft OSs, Cisco routers, Apple or Google phones and be happy to be spied on at will by the NSA?

No. They will spend money to develop their own NSA proof products. And then sell these products. They may well be inferior products, but when you have state and trade secrets, you do what you have to to protect them.

This will represent many billions in lost sales for US companies. As well as new competitors.

bob2356 says

Then George Bush got elected. This made me realize that there was no hope whatsoever, the system is broken and the unstoppable course of decay just has to work it's way through until some major event resets the system.

An alternative is just a question of organization.
I think a majority of people would agree with a simple sets of reforms regarding 2 parties duopoly, political financing, lobbying and other aspects of the current political system.

Heraclitusstudent says

I think a majority of people would agree with a simple sets of reforms regarding 2 parties duopoly, political financing, lobbying and other aspects of the current political system.

That would be nice but the people who would actually be changing the system benefit the most from the system. The amount of money involved in running for office has increased to the point where the only realistic source is large corporations and organizations (trial lawyers, public unions, etc.). The last thing they would want is any type of reform that decreases their influence on law makers. I see no way reform is possible other than a breakdown of the system.

bob2356 says

That would be nice but the people who would actually be changing the system benefit the most from the system.

It's a matter of people grouping together to do it.
Obviously you can't rely on existing groups.

bob2356 says

Remind me much time you've spent trying to make change? Running you mouth on patnet doesn't count.

Spreading good ideas is the best, and possibly only, way the typical American citizen can make a positive material change to our country. Good ideas must be discussed openly and often so that they can gain widespread support. Only then, do such ideas stand a chance of trickling up to those who actually hold power.

A good idea can go viral, and if it does, it stands a chance of becoming a movement and then a reform. But the only way that can happen is if people with good ideas run their mouths often.

There are over 300 million Americans today. Other than coming up with and spreading good ideas, there is damn little, if anything, the typical American can do to make great change.

Here's some examples of my good ideas. Spread them like herpes.

You need to do 2 things:
1 - bring people together around a clear idea that shares wide support. (let's say stop NSA spying of Americans)
2 - get people to donate, hire lobbyists and buy politicians to do it.

One could easily create an Internet start-up to do these things.

Heraclitusstudent says

What do you think countries like Germany, France, India, Brazil, Russia will do now?

Will they continue to buy Microsoft OSs, Cisco routers, Apple or Google phones and be happy to be spied on at will by the NSA?

had they been manufactured in USA or in their own country.. YES !

no need to mfg in China.

Heraclitusstudent says

No. They will spend money to develop their own NSA proof products. And then sell these products. They may well be inferior products, but when you have state and trade secrets, you do what you have to to protect them.

Like Euro tech makers such as Philips Semi, STMicroelectronics, which also had its products hacked by the Chinese Military.. These guys have already been making chips that go into American products.

The NSA isnt the problem here...

MI6 and MI5 'refuse to use Lenovo computers' over claims Chinese company makes them vulnerable to hacking

Lenovo - the largest PC producer in the world - is indirectly backed by the Chinese state

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/mi6-and-mi5-refuse-to-use-lenovo-computers-over-claims-chinese-company-makes-them-vulnerable-to-hacking-8737072.html

Britain’s intelligence agencies, including MI6 and MI5, have allegedly banned the use of computers manufactured by Chinese company Lenovo due to concerns that the machines come hardwired with a vulnerability to hacking.

Machines produced by the state-backed technology company, which is the largest PC producer in the world, are claimed to have been found in tests by MI5 and GCHQ to have modifications in their circuitry which could allow remote access to the devices without the owners’ knowledge.

The discovery has led to a written banning order being issued among the “Five Eyes” alliance of British, American, Australian, Canadian and New Zealand eavesdropping agencies, including the US National Security Agency, according to the respected Australian Financial Review.

Chinese hackers 'steal blueprints for Australian spy HQ'
Hackers traced to China stole floorplans of the new A$630m base for the Australia Security Intelligence Organisation, according to ABC news

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/chinese-hackers-steal-blueprints-for-australian-spy-hq-8633757.html

hinese hackers have stolen the blueprints of a new multi-million-dollar Australian spy headquarters as part of a growing wave of cyber attacks against business and military targets in the close US ally, an Australian news report said.

The hackers also stole confidential information from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, which houses the overseas spy agency the Australian Secret Intelligence Service, Australia's ABC Television said late yesterday.

The ABC report said Chinese hackers had targeted Australia-based companies more aggressively than previously thought, including steel-manufacturer Bluescope Steel, and military and civilian communications manufacturer Codan Ltd.

Heraclitusstudent says

You need to do 2 things:

1 - bring people together around a clear idea that shares wide support. (let's say stop NSA spying of Americans)

2 - get people to donate, hire lobbyists and buy politicians to do it.

Stupid idea.. how do you know the person on the internet is American citizen to begin with ? Could be a Chinese hacker, Colombian narc-smuggler, or Arab terrorists.

thomaswong.1986 says

Stupid idea.. how do you know the person on the internet is American citizen to begin with ? Could be a Chinese hacker, Colombian narc-smuggler, or Arab terrorists.

You ask for an id.

Dan8267 says

Here's some examples of my good ideas. Spread them like herpes.

That's a long list. Which is highest priority? Do the numbers indicate priority?

It seems like our #1 problem is wealth (and therefore power) concentration. Money buys politicians and therefore money buys laws.

The numbers are just used for organization, not priority.

freak80 says

It seems like our #1 problem is wealth (and therefore power) concentration.

Agreed. And no matter what you do, those with the money and power will resist. So you just have to chip away at their parasitic strongholds.

Interesting forum thread by cryptonerds about WHAT the NSA cracked.
http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2013-September/017031.html

Looks like there is a belief , based on what I can decipher (no pun intended) is that it is RSA that has been rendered insecure. Others disagree.

Another interesting piece in the same thread about what (not) to do if you end up in unsolicited possession of information:
http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2013-September/017228.html

I found the part where the guy found top secret documents in his public library that the NSA insisted be destroyed quite funny.

Update: This article says it's RC4, which is apparently behind HTTPS and most VPN.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/06/nsa_cryptobreaking_bullrun_analysis/

Heraclitusstudent says

No. They will spend money to develop their own NSA proof products. And then sell these products. They may well be inferior products, but when you have state and trade secrets, you do what you have to to protect them.

Bingo. The BRICS may very well develop their own OS, software, and protocols for their own security, to create their own IT power (their new prop systems will be powered by domestic knowhow, which has the added benefit of creating middle class jobs), and eventually exporting it as a safer, more secure alternative to NSA backdoor-vulnerability riddled spyware from various US Multinationals.

BTW, anybody realize the sick humor - and the real target - behind the names of the US/UK programs, both named after the respective country's Civil War battles. These programs ain't called "Falafel" or "Tafiq", they aren't targeted at foreign religious nuts, but at US targets.

thunderlips11 says

Bingo. The BRICS may very well develop their own OS, software, and protocols for their own security, to create their own IT power (their new prop systems will be powered by domestic knowhow, which has the added benefit of creating middle class jobs), and eventually exporting it as a safer, more secure alternative to NSA backdoor-vulnerability

you do realize they (BRIC) already export the such products which have been hacked by Russian and Chinese secret services at the factory level. Not even the US named mfg were aware of the changes made to their products.

So ... you rather have compromised systems from the other nations vs USA made which have NOT been compromised ?

thomaswong.1986 says

You ask for an id.

Serious ? ID to what...your social security, back accounts, drivers license..

Answer any emails from Kenya with your ID and back accounts lately...

there is a reason its called "WORLD WiDE WEB"

Dan8267 says

Here's some examples of my good ideas. Spread them like herpes.

Here's an idea: put those ideas on condoms.

thomaswong.1986 says

you do realize they (BRIC) already export the such products which have been hacked by Russian and Chinese secret services at the factory level. Not even the US named mfg were aware of the changes made to their products.

Oh, interesting. Ain't free trade grand! That's what happens when you outsource. Which subcontractor for various routers, smartphones, video cards, sound boards, etc. is adding PLA snooping stuff? They all probably are. Anything to save a buck and not hire an American no matter what the cost! But whatever corporations do is great, so long as they do what we say, and don't tell the public.

thomaswong.1986 says

So ... you rather have compromised systems from the other nations vs USA made which have NOT been compromised ?

I don't want to be spied on, period. Competition won't be foolproof, but being able to buy non-US hardware and software would throw a wrench in the MIC's plan.

Not too many NSA personnel have a second career working with Ralph Nader; but many get good jobs in finance.

I look forward to on-demand manufacturing of open source hardware that always comes "'Unlocked' and ready to Overclock". CISCO Routers, Windows (way back to '95), and iPhones are full of Government Spyware Vulnerabilities. A little competition for building a secure system might be possible, too. Competition is good! Let NSA-backdoor vulnerable technology compete with other, foreign protocols that have fewer backdoors or maybe even none at all!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAKEY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Notes#Security
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=264650

Do you think China or the Russians can't exploit backdoors implemented at the NSA's request? They can analyze traffic, too, you know.

The 4th Amendment was implemented by the founding fathers for a reason. I see no compelling reason to toss it out the window.

Jesus, does nobody remember the 80s when the Basques, IRA, various "Red" groups, Libya, etc. was bombing every other disco and bus stop? Or the 60s, when bombs went off on campuses all the freakin' time? We didn't need to smash the 4th Amendment then, why now?

Because there is no Soviet Union to propagandize when the US is caught doing "bad things", and the Cold War gave us some BAD habits. In short, there is no external pressure to keep our unresponsive, regulatory captured, Saudi-Israeli Lapdog government behaving itself. The Media can't be arsed, that's for sure.

It's OK because of US exceptionalism.

thunderlips11 says

Oh, interesting. Ain't free trade grand! That's what happens when you outsource. Which subcontractor for various routers, smartphones, video cards, sound boards, etc. is adding PLA snooping stuff? They all probably are. Anything to save a buck and not hire an American no matter what the cost! But whatever corporations do is great, so long as they do what we say, and don't tell the public.

Routers, smartphones, video/audio cards.. are all semiconductor chips ..

you can thank the Japanese/Taiwanese/Korean for dumping chips below the cost of production to drive US manufacturers out of business. It wasnt to "save a buck" as you civilians like to imagine which led to overseas plants.

thunderlips11 says

thomaswong.1986 says

So ... you rather have compromised systems from the other nations vs USA made which have NOT been compromised ?

I don't want to be spied on, period. Competition won't be foolproof, but being able to buy non-US hardware and software would throw a wrench in the MIC's plan.

I dont think you understand what is US vs non US HW/SW is...

Do you have any monitoring of foreign factories where the changes to create back doors are created. talk to a chinese workers lately ?

thunderlips11 says

Do you think China or the Russians can't exploit backdoors implemented at the NSA's request? They can analyze traffic, too, you know.

whats the point when they are sabotaging our designs and creating backdoors...

fact is every nation is reviewing their IT purchases of which are made in China/Russia.

the world is better off having US made HW/SW... only fools think otherwise.

thunderlips11 says

The 4th Amendment was implemented by the founding fathers for a reason. I see no compelling reason to toss it out the window.

Jesus, does nobody remember the 80s when the Basques, IRA, various "Red" groups, Libya, etc. was bombing every other disco and bus stop? Or the 60s, when bombs went off on campuses all the freakin' time? We didn't need to smash the 4th Amendment then, why now?

what does the 4th amendment have to do with a GLOBAL world wide web ?

Our constitution does not apply to terrorist groups (IRA, basque, Libya, etc etc).
then or now...

its people lack of understanding of what the WWW is and how it works that is the problem.

thomaswong.1986 says

Do you have any monitoring of foreign factories where the changes to create back doors are created. talk to a chinese workers lately ?

You're being paranoiac about China. A lot of hardware products designed in the US are assembled in China from parts (like chips) made in Korea, Japan or elsewhere. The products are QAed as being what was designed with the components as by design and there are foreign representatives in these Chinese factories. There is simply very little opportunity to tamper with them on a scale as massive as what the NSA is doing.

In any case the problem is not with China. The problem is for country like Germany, Japan, France, Brazil, Italy, etc... Are these countries going to continue using HW/SW that they know for sure is NSA spyware? No, not for anything where security is important.

Worse US tech companies completely lost any shred of credibility. Even if they come and announce new "safe" products, no one is going to believe them.

thomaswong.1986 says

what does the 4th amendment have to do with a GLOBAL world wide web ?

Sorry, NSA spies on Americans in the US too, collects all emails and other communications and search them with no reason to do so. Even filtering messages based on content is basically the same as a search.

If you think the constitution should be disregarded whenever it's convenient for the government, then why have a constitution at all? I suggest you go live in China if you like 'benevolent' dictatorships.