patrick.net

mell says

I would if I could break with my family and job ties easily. But I have friends who lived in the US, Europe and Russia and they don't think it's worse over there at all, same for friends who live in the neighboring states. In fact, from what I have gathered they have more personal freedom on many levels, good medical care etc. Not sure what's not to like, maybe you have made some bad experiences traveling in russia?

the fact that you're lumping Europe and Russia together shows you know virtually nothing about it.

I've lived in worked in Europe for years. The system is 'better' for those working in it now, but I dont have a positive outlook for the future.

Russia is a severely corrupt plutocracy run by remnants of the KGB. Young women leave there in droves trying to escape a life of prostitution.

you don't know what you're talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/JsUH8llvTZo

MershedPerturders says

I've lived in worked in Europe for years.

How does this make you an expert in Russian affairs? I grew up In Europe.

MershedPerturders says

Russia is a severely corrupt plutocracy run by remnants of the KGB.

That's what a lot of people say about the US.

In any case, I bet you that by 2020 to 2030 at the latest people will regret not having invested in Russia. as it will flourish (as mot of the east will catch up or overtake the west). I am not so sure about the western countries.

MershedPerturders says

That's a bit ironic considering what a lucrative (illegal & prescription) drug market the US is.

mell says

How does this make you an expert in Russian affairs? I grew up In Europe.

what part?

MershedPerturders says

mell says

How does this make you an expert in Russian affairs? I grew up In Europe.

what part?

western but within hours (by car) of the east. I have traveled to the former "east-block" but not russia. btw. I agree that during the cold war their economy was inferior and is still suffering after-effects and that the west has been the "golden" opportunity for some russian women, no doubt, however what I am saying is that this has been changing rather rapidly and I am making the prediction that Russia will fully catch up within the next 10 years. I have no political stake either way and like the diversity different countries of the world have to offer. Btw the Ukraine I think is considering joining the EU, which is remarkable, not necessarily good or bad for them, but it shows how close the east and (some parts of) the west have grown. Given the dependency on Russian energy I think some European countries may shift further towards Russia and the US and its staunchest allies (UK) may become more isolated if Putin continues to play his hand well.

so, Germany? Poland?

sounds like youre a slav or maybe ethnic Russian. Russia is nothing like Europe. I've dated Russian women and they dont give up their russian identity easily and tend to talk the way you're talking.

MershedPerturders says

so, Germany? Poland?

sounds like youre a slav or maybe ethnic Russian. Russia is nothing like Europe. I've dated Russian women and they dont give up their russian identity easily and tend to talk the way you're talking.

Germany. I have friends within western Europe who refuse to visit the US citing similar reasons. I have debated them and still think that's no reason not to visit a friend, but everything that was revealed recently about the NSA spying hasn't helped me here ;) Some have visited and where dismayed about the out-of-control level of homelessness, a few actually liked it, after all the bay area has lots to offer, but nobody decided to live or work here. In fact. one friend on the fence picked Beijing instead (crazy but maybe a sign of times to come?).

I can't imagine why a German would want to live in the US, being that most Germans aren't wealthy enough to even afford a basic life here. The wealth disparity is practically non-existent in Germany and this makes thing much different. I was living/working in Lower Saxony and later Hamburg, but traveled all over Germany, Switz, Western Europe, France, etc. I speak a little German and French. I also traveled to all the ex-communist states and spent quite some time there.

The Berliners are still very pro-communist even though they don't like to admit it, especially Berliner women. The city is a dirty crap hole though. Im still not convinced you've spent much time in Russia. are you ethnic Deutsch?

Honest Abe,
If you are looking for "..any type of rational dialog," you've come to the wrong place. You might be expecting too much out of this crew. This is
The #1, Right, Left,Middle trolling site.

Larry the Cable Guy: "I don't care who ya are, that's funny right there"

MershedPerturders says

can't imagine why a German would want to live in the US, being that most Germans aren't wealthy enough to even afford a basic life here.

Well, those who move to the US for work obviously make good money. Then there are quite a few who became wealthy enough and want to retire in the warm desert, not sure why, but you see quite a few in AZ. Also, the dollar used to be crushingly strong, something akin to 2.50 deutschmark, so the US used to be super expensive. If you count the Euro as roughly 1.50 deutschmarks and take into account that one euro is now at 1.35 USD, you can see how much the dollar has weakened under the Fed and QE, and these days the bay area is packed with European, esp. German tourists. So affordability has increased by a lot. But unless you work in tech or any other field where the US has exciting prospects the incentive to move over is not that great. Yes, ethnic German and southern european. I already mentioned I haven't spent any time in russia, but in other parts of eastern Europe. I have close friends though in Russia. I would like to move to the east as I am sort of "satiated" with the west, but it's not that easy with family here.

indigenous, how close are you to retirement?

MershedPerturders says

indigenous, how close are you to retirement?

Not for awhile. Why?

indigenous says

MershedPerturders says

indigenous, how close are you to retirement?

Not for awhile. Why?

what's 'a while'?

mell says

In any case, I bet you that by 2020 to 2030 at the latest people will regret not having invested in Russia.

Lol. If you want to give Putin and former KGB folks your money, go right ahead.

freak80 says

mell says

In any case, I bet you that by 2020 to 2030 at the latest people will regret not having invested in Russia.

Lol. If you want to give Putin and former KGB folks your money, go right ahead.

It's not as easy to invest in foreign assets, mine are mainly tied to US and Europe. Without going into Putin's history and political background, I think he is outsmarting most western leaders (that doesn't make him good or bad) by a lot and is being heavily underestimated.

From Wikipedia:

Under the presidency of Vladimir Putin Russia's economy saw the nominal Gross Domestic Product (GDP) double, climbing from 22nd to 11th largest in the world. The economy made real gains of an average 7% per year ( 1999: 6.5%, 2000: 10%, 2001: 5.7%, 2002: 4.9%, 2003: 7.3%, 2004: 7.2%, 2005: 6.4%, 2006: 8.2%, 2007: 8.5%, 2008: 5.2% ), making it the 6th largest economy in the world in GDP(PPP). In 2007, Russia's GDP exceeded that of 1990, meaning it has overcome the devastating consequences of the recession in the 1990s.[37]
During Putin's eight years in office, the industry grew by 75%, investments increased by 125%,[37] and agricultural production and construction increased as well. Real incomes more than doubled and the average salary increased eightfold from $80 to $640.[38][39][40] The volume of consumer credit between 2000–2006 increased 45 times,[41][42] and during that same time period, the middle class grew from 8 million to 55 million, an increase of 7 times. The number of people living below the poverty line also decreased from 30% in 2000 to 14% in 2008.[37][43][44]

Putin may be out now and there seems to be a slight recent slowdown amid continued inflationary forces, but I'd still call this a heck of an economic track record (as compared to dubya and obummer).

freak80 says

mell says

In any case, I bet you that by 2020 to 2030 at the latest people will regret not having invested in Russia.

Lol. If you want to give Putin and former KGB folks your money, go right ahead.

they just want to spitefully give air to Putin and friends knowing they pose a real challenge to the US. gives them a sense of satisfaction. What they miss however is that Russia is right next door, ready to roll in on their perfect little European paradises and the only thing that was keeping them from doing so was US power. We'll see how much they like a weak US very soon.

mell, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Russia is owned by uberillionaires who make money from international crime and natural gas. The average russian wants out of there desperately. I know this from experience I used to sleep with a Russian girl every single night.

you might think it's fun to promote Ameirca's long time rival because you hate America so much, but what you don't see is what will happen to Europe in a situation where Russia is strong. Basically, we go back to worrying about our own problems, and while Europeans are arguing over who has the best pastries, Russia is going to dominate you completely. They weren't too far away what was it 20 years ago? Bet you just loved the GDR didn't you?

I don't hate any country, I like a lot about the US - e.g. Ron Paul ;) - why else would I have moved here? Take a look at this:

http://www.gfmag.com/tools/global-database/economic-data/11944-wealth-distribution-income-inequality.html#axzz2fObfAiwe

and find the income/wealth inequality values for the US and Russia, they are very similar, except for that they have been moving in opposite directions. What you are saying about Russia has changed. I have not encountered the "I want out" mentality amongst the Russians I know (male or female). For sure the US has been the promised land for many throughout the decades to escape and make it through hard work (or marriage) and it still has a lot of appeal, but times have changed and continue to do so while we are fighting the stupid "Republican" vs "Democrat" fight from our armchairs. I have worked with quite a few bright Indian HW/SW engineers and more and more have gone back to India and founded their own companies where they claim an able, talented entrepreneurial mind can have a better lifestyle than over here. Repeating over and over again that Russia (or India for that matter) are shit-holes does nothing to impede the economic decline of the US vs its counterparts.

mell says

I don't hate any country, I like a lot about the US - e.g. Ron Paul

have you noticed that many Ron Paul supporters are recent immigrants?

Ron Paul is not patriotic, he's not pro-US. He wants to turn the country into a shopping mall.

egads101 says

yeah, russia is fantastic!

http://youtu.be/KUfHxsw0suE

http://youtu.be/WLcYvNDtHKU

Looks like Highway 101 in the San Francisco bay area during daily commute hours. Not everybody wants to live in the desert ;)

egads101 says

yeah, russia is fantastic!

http://youtu.be/KUfHxsw0suE

http://youtu.be/WLcYvNDtHKU

dont take her seriously.

she's just one of these 'in it for the money' Americans(not even sure if she's a citizen) who is dismembering everything America stands for. They dont respect America's real position in the world, certainly not if they are German. For them it's a bothersome outpost of European Colonial Civilization, rather than the conclusion to European Civilization.

eventually I think America is going to tun on these 'in it for the money' people into something like national socialism. Actually I think many countries will revert to something like National Socialism.

part of the problem with internet forums are you really don't even know who you're talking to.

you want to see what Russian Culture is like?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/02Xz8b4ABeI

MershedPerturders says

part of the problem with internet forums are you really don't even know who you're talking to.

Yeah, especially when you get the gender wrong ;)
I have quite a few relatives in the northern US and Canada and have been debating against anti-american stances amongst my friends in Europe whenever appropriate. I don't like being pressed into any political stereotype (why is that sometimes so hard to understand) and last time I checked the cold war was over.

"There is no such thing as a national feeling that aims only to benefit personal interest."

-Mein Kampf

If mell's attitude continues to proliferate, California, and most of the country will be completely unliveable. They try to justify it with these absurd 'free market' ideas, but it's just about personal gain. You will find invariably that these people belong to some other ethnic group and they view America as a place to 'make money' as mell has already described.

MershedPerturders says

you want to see what Russian Culture is like?

Ok I get it you don't think much of Russia - let's just agree to disagree. But really plenty of homeless and drugged people peeing and shitting on the streets of San Francisco every day in broad daylight, sometimes "sprinkling" people passing by on their way to work.. Esp. when it comes to homelessness numbers the US does not look good. Quality of live is a very complex and sometimes subjective matter.

MershedPerturders says

If mell's attitude continues to proliferate, California, and most of the country will be completely unliveable. They try to justify it with these absurd 'free market' ideas, but it's just about personal gain. You will find invariably that these people belong to some other ethnic group and they view America as a place to 'make money' as mell has already described.

I'm not a die-hard Libertarian just because I don't like the Fed and the useless wars we waste money and lives on, and advocate the federal legalization of pot etc. Or maybe I am, but no politician or political party is perfect. There are many variations, this one for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_libertarianism

I'm a left-libertarian more or less.

I'd like to think Geolibertarianism would be sufficient, but I do know it's necessary.

Even the socialist scandinavian paradises have now screwed themselves again letting their land markets get out of whack, with truly colossal borrowing being allowed to go on, from the Netherlands to Sweden.

Bellingham Bill says

Even the socialist scandinavian paradises have now screwed themselves again letting their land markets get out of whack, with truly colossal borrowing being allowed to go on, from the Netherlands to Sweden

ultimately any nation rests on the work and honor of it's citizens. You can't get people to work hard, risk their lives, and honor a country that they don't have any ownership in. It works for a while, get people to develop markets and give them what they believe is a everlasting title to land while they work, work, work for it. Then everything changes, the politics flip over and those people lose their holdings(probably by jacking up property taxes). Do you really think the country will bail out bankrupt california while californians pay very low property taxes? nope- first the taxes will shoot sky high.

I still remember in the late 80s, people couldnt get rid of their property. It was a pain to own it. To many rules for tenants, too high taxes- that's what owning property will be like. You can't stop it, because the younger generations are just getting angry, they're stating their grievances, theyre organizing, and you wont be able to stop them.

Bellingham Bill says

I'm a left-libertarian more or less.

I'd like to think Geolibertarianism would be sufficient, but I do know it's necessary.

Even the socialist scandinavian paradises have now screwed themselves again letting their land markets get out of whack, with truly colossal borrowing being allowed to go on, from the Netherlands to Sweden.

I think that's very interesting but very hard to merge with the traditional strong "property rights" in the sense that people consider land property as well. Personally I could go with trying it (I am not big on owning) after some practical problems are solved (who determines how much which land is worth, politicians?) , but if people think "regular" Libertarians are already way out there they will have an equally hard if not harder time with this concept ;)

all these ideas like Geolibertarianism seem just dandy if you have time to wank off on internet forums all day. Im interested in practical solutions that work.

Bellingham Bill says

I'd like to think Geolibertarianism would be sufficient, but I do know it's necessary.

There is nothing libertarian about "Geolibertarianism." It should be properly called Geosocialism. It's a good sign that nowadays even the closet socialists are afraid of associating themselves with the S-word. Nothing but disaster will come out of central planning by bureacrats, regardless whether the finite resource under management is goods, labor or land.

Even the socialist scandinavian paradises have now screwed themselves again letting their land markets get out of whack, with truly colossal borrowing being allowed to go on, from the Netherlands to Sweden.

The common failing is socialist central planning, especially for their currency. It is not a co-incidence the in Karl Marx' Communist Manifesto of 1848, Plank #5 (out of 10 planks) is advocacy for central banking.

MershedPerturders says

indigenous says

MershedPerturders says

indigenous, how close are you to retirement?

Not for awhile. Why?

what's 'a while'?

Do you have a point?

Reality says

Nothing but disaster will come out of central planning by bureacrats, regardless whether the finite resource under management is goods, labor or land.

That would have been where I see the biggest issue, somebody would have to "plan" and "assess" the value of the land in order to figure out what others have to pay to use it. However we do have the concept of common land even in the current system, e.g. beaches/parks that cannot be build upon to guarantee access for the public or other national parks/forests where it is the government who charges fess for use in exchange for upkeep. Also, if you reduce the scope of the government and partition it into smallest possible communities (which have some sort of autonomy in deciding how "their" land is used), then central planning can be minimized - not sure about the bureaucracy ;)

Libertarianism: proof that an indoctrination campaign can get people to believe just about anything.

It seems to me that the Fed, being broke read beyond broke, can no longer afford to bribe the states with the federal whatever program, consequently it seems to me that more and more states are going to be nullifying the FED rather than the other way around. What is your take on this?

Do yous see that the Libertarian party is gaining populararity? Of course Noam Chomsky thinks he is a Libertarian, so maybe it is wishful thinking

MershedPerturders says

Libertarianism: proof that an indoctrination campaign can get people to believe just about anything.

Like the all-knowing and all-good Government-God that the closet socialists and out-of-closet socialists are brain-washed into believing and presuming in every single argument.

the fact is that there is only one government solution left: National Socialism.

what this suggests however is a question none of us are willing to ponder: what ethnicity constitutes the nation?

ultimately, it's about survival. When you subtract all these silly notions of wealth and innovation, you are left with the issue of FAMILY, and family leads to TRIBE. What tribe do you belong to? it will be a far more important question than it is today.

our current economies run on borrowed money from the future. Eventually, when enough people want to collect on that borrowed money, the system completely collapses in on itself. Not only does it render the nation insolvent, it renders the entire national concept INVALID.

who is ultimately going to be responsible for these wars, this pollution, this waste, this inhuman abuse? WHO? some asshole in a convertible in california, twice divorced, on pharmaceutical drugs, a pointless job in processing some nonsense in some office somewhere in bay area?

Americans have really lost sight of reality, they don't consider the effect they're having on the world, they dont think about how much the world hates them all and wants their way of life to end.