patrick.net

all these ideas like Geolibertarianism seem just dandy if you have time to wank off on internet forums all day. Im interested in practical solutions that work.

Bellingham Bill says

I'd like to think Geolibertarianism would be sufficient, but I do know it's necessary.

There is nothing libertarian about "Geolibertarianism." It should be properly called Geosocialism. It's a good sign that nowadays even the closet socialists are afraid of associating themselves with the S-word. Nothing but disaster will come out of central planning by bureacrats, regardless whether the finite resource under management is goods, labor or land.

Even the socialist scandinavian paradises have now screwed themselves again letting their land markets get out of whack, with truly colossal borrowing being allowed to go on, from the Netherlands to Sweden.

The common failing is socialist central planning, especially for their currency. It is not a co-incidence the in Karl Marx' Communist Manifesto of 1848, Plank #5 (out of 10 planks) is advocacy for central banking.

MershedPerturders says

indigenous says

MershedPerturders says

indigenous, how close are you to retirement?

Not for awhile. Why?

what's 'a while'?

Do you have a point?

Reality says

Nothing but disaster will come out of central planning by bureacrats, regardless whether the finite resource under management is goods, labor or land.

That would have been where I see the biggest issue, somebody would have to "plan" and "assess" the value of the land in order to figure out what others have to pay to use it. However we do have the concept of common land even in the current system, e.g. beaches/parks that cannot be build upon to guarantee access for the public or other national parks/forests where it is the government who charges fess for use in exchange for upkeep. Also, if you reduce the scope of the government and partition it into smallest possible communities (which have some sort of autonomy in deciding how "their" land is used), then central planning can be minimized - not sure about the bureaucracy ;)

Libertarianism: proof that an indoctrination campaign can get people to believe just about anything.

It seems to me that the Fed, being broke read beyond broke, can no longer afford to bribe the states with the federal whatever program, consequently it seems to me that more and more states are going to be nullifying the FED rather than the other way around. What is your take on this?

Do yous see that the Libertarian party is gaining populararity? Of course Noam Chomsky thinks he is a Libertarian, so maybe it is wishful thinking

MershedPerturders says

Libertarianism: proof that an indoctrination campaign can get people to believe just about anything.

Like the all-knowing and all-good Government-God that the closet socialists and out-of-closet socialists are brain-washed into believing and presuming in every single argument.

the fact is that there is only one government solution left: National Socialism.

what this suggests however is a question none of us are willing to ponder: what ethnicity constitutes the nation?

ultimately, it's about survival. When you subtract all these silly notions of wealth and innovation, you are left with the issue of FAMILY, and family leads to TRIBE. What tribe do you belong to? it will be a far more important question than it is today.

our current economies run on borrowed money from the future. Eventually, when enough people want to collect on that borrowed money, the system completely collapses in on itself. Not only does it render the nation insolvent, it renders the entire national concept INVALID.

who is ultimately going to be responsible for these wars, this pollution, this waste, this inhuman abuse? WHO? some asshole in a convertible in california, twice divorced, on pharmaceutical drugs, a pointless job in processing some nonsense in some office somewhere in bay area?

Americans have really lost sight of reality, they don't consider the effect they're having on the world, they dont think about how much the world hates them all and wants their way of life to end.

MershedPerturders says

the fact is that there is only one government solution left: National Socialism.

Mashed tators

You are ambigous. We have socialism now?

In large part the debt will be paid for through inflation. If the polticians grow a pair they will just default, as you said at that point it will be about survival.

I'm not sure we are as hated as you think.

If the country did default then the healing could begin. Unfortunately it will instead gimp along like the UK or Argentina for an extended period

if we hyperinflate to pay the debt, we will not be able to finance anything including our military and many other important things. We will not be able to afford oil. Anyone on a pension will not be able to buy anything with their payments.

this American form of domination is coming to an end very soon. Can't you see them positioning themselves? Can't you see our government preparing for this eventuality?

you can't see if you don't open your eyes.

indigenous says

I'm not sure we are as hated as you think.

people pretend to like America if they're making money. eg. mell

could anyone actually LIVE in this horror system where everything is a money making venture referred to as Libertarianism? absolutely not, but they have you wonking away while they turn the country into their property where it was once your home.

mell says

Putin may be out now and there seems to be a slight recent slowdown amid continued inflationary forces, but I'd still call this a heck of an economic track record

he doesnt have to deal with environmentalists when they are putting the oil pipline into europe. russias GDP all driven by natural resources.

Reality says

Who would be doing that limiting for you?

Some might say "we the people."

Reality says

That is a silly point to make . . . as silly as saying many people are born prettier than others. Big fricking deal. Do we need "beauty equalization"?

Ok, so you don't have a problem with aristocracy. But many people do, including myself.

thomaswong.1986 says

he doesnt have to deal with environmentalists when they are putting the oil
pipline into europe. russias GDP all driven by natural resources.

I'm not sure the residents of Chelyabinsk and Chernobyl share your disdain for environmentalists. Do you really want to include Russia in your passive-aggressive musings about environmentalists?

MershedPerturders says

what this suggests however is a question none of us are willing to ponder:
what ethnicity constitutes the nation?

ultimately, it's about survival. When you subtract all these silly notions of
wealth and innovation, you are left with the issue of FAMILY, and family leads
to TRIBE. What tribe do you belong to? it will be a far more important question
than it is today.

Well Charles Manson believed that race war was inevitable .... he turned out to be dead wrong on this issue. In general, I don't see tribe strife happening in america. In essence, this is what "american exceptionalism" is all about - not seeing yourself and others as part of specific tribes like they do in eastern europe and middle east for example. In fact, many people precisely came to america to get away from this primitive bullshit.

dublin hillz says

In fact, many people precisely came to america to get away from this primitive bullshit.

most people came to america to make money lawlessly so they can bring money to their tribe back home.

so far the American experiment hasn't worked without borrowing massively on the future.

freak80 says

Ok, so you don't have a problem with aristocracy. But many people do, including myself.

I don't have a problem with inherited wealth per se.

I do have a problem with people selling (or leasing) me the commons they've claimed for themselves.

That's the fundamental injustice, something John Locke nailed a long time ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockean_proviso

mell says

(who determines how much which land is worth, politicians

highest bidder more or less (there's an infinite amount of issues to be hashed out with LVT -- tax abatements for land-intensive but valued uses, security of tenancy for people as they age, etc)

they key thing is that a given plot's economic value is very dependent on its zoning, so how things gets zoned is the true determinant of prices.

Bellingham Bill says

freak80 says

Ok, so you don't have a problem with aristocracy. But many people do, including myself.

I don't have a problem with inherited wealth per se.

I do have a problem with people selling (or leasing) me the commons they've claimed for themselves.

That's the fundamental injustice, something John Locke nailed a long time ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockean_proviso

give me an example of something that wasn't 'commons'

MershedPerturders says

so far the American experiment hasn't worked without borrowing massively on the future.

What a dumbass comment. It has worked better than any other "experiment" in history. Especially before your socialist vermin sunk their claws into the economy about 100yr ago.

indigenous says

It has worked better than any other "experiment" in history.

Hi!

I have over 3 rental properties and I declare the American Experiment a resounding success!

-stupid clueless boomer

freak80 says

Some might say "we the people."

Let's see, "we the people" voted for the lawmakers who pass laws that they do not read, that the bureaucrats do not abide by anyway.

Ok, so you don't have a problem with aristocracy. But many people do, including myself.

Aristocracy is maintained by government granted privileges. The free market place was historically what chipped away Aristocracy. Every parent wants his/her child to have a good start . . . meaning better than average start in life. Therein lies the statistical impossibility: everyone can not be above average! Government official privilege is what builds aristocracy as bureaucrats have children too!

Reality says

Let's see, "we the people" voted for the lawmakers who pass laws that they do not read, that the bureaucrats do not abide by anyway.

"America is the best system every invented! How else could a lazy idiot like me whose primary interest is cheeseburgers and sex accumulate property? Impossible in any other country! God bless our troops for making America safe for illegal aliens and corrupt banking practices."

The "Robber Baron" term was coined in the late 19th century. The per capita income in the US increased from roughly 1% per year to 2% per year in the middle decades of the 19th century, after the "Robber Barons" built the turnpikes, canals and railroads.

The "GNP"/"GDP" during much of FDR years were measuring make-belief jobs and jobs killing people. The planes and bombs burning down Dresden were counted as US/UK GDP/GNP; the AA fire killing US/UK air crewmen were counted as German GDP/GNP. The world's GDP/GNP mushroomed as the citizens roasted in fire.

Reality says

The "Robber Baron" term was coined in the late 19th century. The per capita income in the US increased from roughly 1% per year to 2% per year in the middle decades of the 19th century, after the "Robber Barons" built the turnpikes, canals and railroads.

wth are you talking about?

most of America's infrastructure was built by FDR through civil labor programs.

MershedPerturders says

wth are you talking about?

most of America's infrastructure was built by FDR through civil labor programs.

What parallel universe would that be? Railroads were built in the 19th century. The national highway program started under Eisenhower in the 1950's. The Hoover Dam is called Hoover Dam, not FDR Dam, for a reason. Not that any of them couldn't have been built less expensively.

indigenous says

You did not listen to a single thing Reality said about how thpse books are cooked, a while back.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special_pleading

Reality says

the "Robber Barons" built the turnpikes, canals and railroads.

The railroads and canals had government help in many cases.

No, I'm not saying government should run everything.

freak80 says

Reality says

the "Robber Barons" built the turnpikes, canals and railroads.

The railroads and canals had government help in many cases.

No, I'm not saying government should run everything.

Indeed many "Robber Barons" were crony capitalists. Some were not. Guess which ones the government officials went after?

were on the cusp of WWIII and these pathetic moral degenerates on here are arguing for 'free markets' so they can make money in real estate. It's disgusting. California deserves to be nuked.

MershedPerturders says

most of America's infrastructure was built by FDR through civil labor programs

didnt do much of nothing until Factories in the late 40s and through out the 50s-60s started peak manufacturing exporting across the globe.

so the answer again is building factories for the long run. Roads otherwise have
no benefit. The other real infrastructure ... transportation industry was all private.

MershedPerturders says

were on the cusp of WWIII and these pathetic moral degenerates on here are arguing for 'free markets' so they can make money in real estate. It's disgusting. California deserves to be nuked.

There is no California.. perhaps it should be better known as
Northern Mexico or New York West.. Look at who is hustling RE in California
these days. Its mostly people from out of state.. east coast.

Real Californians already learned during the 89-91 recession, inflated
home prices do not work in California and have a horrible impact on jobs and economy.

Reality says

The "Robber Baron" term was coined in the late 19th century. The per capita income in the US increased from roughly 1% per year to 2% per year in the middle decades of the 19th century, after the "Robber Barons" built the turnpikes, canals and railroads.

Managed to get out of college without taking a history course somehow? It was required where I went to school.

Toll roads were from the late 1700's through the 1840's. Mostly funded by local citizens, merchants and farmers, with some state's subsiding, almost none turned any real profit. They existed to open up local industry to a wider market. Canals were 1800 to 1830's or so. Private capital wasn't enough to canals to be built so they were mostly private/government combined funding. Railroads were 1830's to 1870's. Lots of government involvement, lots of corruption. Canals and railroads killed the toll roads.

The robber barons of the guilded age were 1870's to early 1900's. They were industrialists and bankers. They used the infrastructure to build great wealth but they most certainly didn't build the infrastructure.

MershedPerturders says

a day of reckoning will soon be upon us.

Who will implement the "reckoning" knowing that "we" can retaliate up to nuclear weapons level?

bob2356 says

Managed to get out of college without taking a history course somehow? It was required where I went to school.

I satisfied the college requirement on American history by getting a 5 a AP test while in high school.

Toll roads were from the late 1700's through the 1840's. Mostly funded by local citizens, merchants and farmers, with some state's subsiding, almost none turned any real profit. They existed to open up local industry to a wider market. Canals were 1800 to 1830's or so. Private capital wasn't enough to canals to be built so they were mostly private/government combined funding. Railroads were 1830's to 1870's. Lots of government involvement, lots of corruption.

No kidding. Robber Barons often involved government cronies. While robbing taxpayers via government subsidy has a very long history, the speed of robbing via government granted privileges really took off in the middle of 19th century, leading to coining the term "Robber Baron."

The robber barons of the guilded age were 1870's to early 1900's. They were industrialists and bankers. They used the infrastructure to build great wealth but they most certainly didn't build the infrastructure.

Many robber barons made their first pot of gold in railroad. Incidentally, Lincoln was a corporate lawyer for one of the largest railroad companies, as was Douglas. What were the chances that the election of 1860 came down to between two railroad lawyers?!

Like I said, "Reality", if you think it's best to have no government, move to Somolia or Haiti. They are fine examples of libertarian paradise.

Reality says

I satisfied the college requirement on American history by getting a 5 a AP test while in high school.

This comment reminds me of history professors' common complaint that the most frustrating part of their job is overcoming all the falsehoods that students are taught in high school, especially about American history. The Texas school boards have had a particularly pernicious influence on American history textbooks. A high school AP test can show an aptitude for history, and 5 is the highest score, but the failure to pursue further study suggests a lack of serious interest.

Regarding the OP topic, there is now a Christian Dominion view to support Republican tax policy, i.e. wealth is a sign of divine favor, and raising taxes would go against divine will. In that view, if you're poor, you need to pray harder. It's the economic equivalent of faith healing, and like the American history textbooks, it is very heavily influenced by Texas.

Curious2 is exactly correct. The Religious Right's view is: if you are poor, it's because God is punishing you for your sin or lack of faith. Magical thinking is fundamental to the religious right. I know, because I grew up in that world.

We have a significant part of the voting public which is literally delusional.

freak80 says

Curious2 is exactly correct. The Religious Right's view is: if you are poor, it's because God is punishing you for your sin or lack of faith. Magical thinking is fundamental to the religious right. I know, because I grew up in that world.

Lol.. you know very little about the Western Tradition and history of self sustain's ones self as well as seeking new opportunities. Call it the Protestant work ethic or Catholic work ethic..

Its no wonder many like my great grandfather moved west ... while yours stayed behind. were they cowards like you today ?

curious2 says

Regarding the OP topic, there is now a Christian Dominion view to support Republican tax policy, i.e. wealth is a sign of divine favor, and raising taxes would go against divine will. In that view, if you're poor, you need to pray harder. It's the economic equivalent of faith healing, and like the American history textbooks, it is most heavily influenced by Texas.

How do you explain JF Kennedy's tax cut from 1960... was he also pushing to increase the poor ?