patrick.net

Heraclitusstudent says

In a small group, a few reasonable people stand a chance to stop stupid things from happening. Not so when you have a society of millions.

History is rife with examples of small groups doing horrible things. When insanity has momentum I am not sure that reasonable people easily prevail in any sized group.

Granted on a statistical scale over the course of human history I would not be surprised if by the numbers large groups (millions) have inflicted more pain and suffering. One of the differences is that with large groups the insanity does not seem to be sustainable over a very long period of time before it gets stopped. However, small groups horrible shit can go on for generations until it becomes an integral part of their culture.

Heraclitusstudent says

In a tribe, cohesion is a question of survival. This is hardly the case for a large nation, at least not to the same level.

Humanity as seemed to evolve to the point where you are either in a large group or you are shit on. Surviving perhaps, but shit on.

compulsery education at the public expense should be haulted, and privatized schooling should be all that exists. As a result of education being a choice and not forced, all voting rights should be earned with passage of a basic IQ test in math, economics, and history, along with a clean drug test.

Bap33 says

basic IQ test in math, economics, and history

You realize you are stripping voting rights from much of the GOP and Tea Party here, right?

This is seriously not a dig, but time-after-time these are the type of tests they perform poorly on. Am I to assume that you also want to enact laws that require the test to ignore modern scientific discovery so everyone who answers that the earth is 6000 years-old passes?

leo707 says

do they still question the propaganda? Fuck yes.

I don't think you understand the nature of propaganda. It will change a person's perceptions of things without this person even noticing. It will affect their group identity in a way that will be very hard to change back later - critical thinking or not. Most people think they are rational, but studies show commercial propaganda for example has a massive impact on people's decision. This is not a silver bullet, but this is a very strong tool. The human brain has biases, and these biases will prevent critical thinking on occasion.

You think kids, teenagers have critical thinking? Kids below 10 are products of their families and teenagers are basically the products of their environments. Teenagers in particular are extremely vulnerable to ideas coming from their peers and environment as they seek to form their own identities by copying what they see. Talk to immigrants who saw their kids grow up in the US and they will tell you about it.

When you submit kids to propaganda, they are unable to judge what the effects will be, and it will have an impact on their identity that they won't be in a position to decide for themselves. This is not giving them a choice and this is in fact limiting critical thinking.

As for the rest of political, religious, and commercial propaganda, it is obviously just as noxious. I wouldn't submit my kids to any of these if I can at all avoid it. I see no reason why I should treat nationalist propaganda differently.

Vicente says

Pledge of Allegiance

The American Pledge of Allegiance, like all pledges of allegiance to anything, are inherently wrong. Allegiance should be constantly earned, not given for the simple matter of being born into a tribe. The very concept of a pledge of allegiance is repugnant to any free thinking person. Ironically, the American Pledge of Allegiance is entirely Unamerican in every principle it demands others to pledge. What a disgusting work. I've always hated it.

Heraclitusstudent says

leo707 says

People -- especially kids -- should be given the latitude to question things, and if an adequate answer can not be given then the person asking for the blind obedience should themselves question the "thing."

This is incompatible with the use of propaganda on kids.
Propaganda is precisely designed to force them into compliance. And you may say that a level of conformance is a good thing. But the point is: you don't give them a reasoned choice.
You can't extol the virtues of critical thinking and at the same time promote tools designed to suppress it.

Yes, this is why I don't "opt in" for the gay mafia assertion that their culture needs to be accepted by all and taught in schools. I trust my own judgement over that of politicians and Hollywood actors. I respect Leo's opinion about being inclusive, but reject his right to force said opinions on me. Most of my experiences with homo guys have been negative and I'm not going to defer to popular opinion on an issue where I already hold an opinion based on personal experience. Groupthink is not and will never be my way.

Bap33 says

compulsery education at the public expense should be haulted, and privatized schooling should be all that exists. As a result of education being a choice and not forced, all voting rights should be earned with passage of a basic IQ test in math, economics, and history, along with a clean drug test.

Any thoughts on the actual topic of the thread? Or, additional info on how this is supposed to add to the topic?

leo707 says

Humanity as seemed to evolve to the point where you are either in a large group or you are shit on. Surviving perhaps, but shit on.

First being in a large country doesn't require an allegiance to it, second there are many small countries that are better off than the US.

Bap33 says

compulsery education at the public expense should be haulted, and privatized schooling should be all that exists

Because the free market should decide what 12 + 15 equals.

Bap33 says

As a result of education being a choice and not forced, all voting rights should be earned with passage of a basic IQ test in math, economics, and history, along with a clean drug test.

As long as I get to set the standards.

You don't get to vote unless you can
- explain in detail how we know evolution is a fact and how it works right down to the molecular level
- explain the Big Bang Theory or the Theory of Relativity
- do calculus, abstract algebra, and predicate logic
- build a functioning computer from the gate level up
- write a three tier web application
- explain why Keynesian economics is wrong
- accurate state how big and how old the Earth is
- show mankind's immigration paths out of Africa
- point out the following countries on a world map: U.S., Canada, Mexico, Australia, U.K., France, Span, Portugal, Germany, Austria, Italy, Libya, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Russia, China, Japan, Mongolia, Brazil, and Panama. This list can be expanded, but that's a start.
- explain how the American Civil War was about slavery and human rights, and not about states' rights
- explain why the Magna Carta is important
- describe the progressive movement and the benefits it created
- explain why Reaganomics is bullshit
- explain how a microwave oven cooks food
- explain how the Internet works
- explain the various technologies that allow digital video to be distributed all over the world
- explain the difference between iron and steel and why one is stronger than the other
- disprove the existence of any omnipotent being using only a priori logic.

As for a clean drug test, you should be allowed to smoke as much pot as you want and vote. However, no one on Ritalin or other mind altering drugs sold by Big Pharma would get to vote. I could go either way on alcohol.

Quigley says

Most of my experiences with homo guys have been negative and I'm not going to defer to popular opinion on an issue where I already hold an opinion based on personal experience.

Putting aside that you have probably had many pleasant interactions with people you did not realize were gay; I am curious as to how gays differed from your experiences with any non-gay people? I have found them to be pretty "normal" on the whole.

Quigley says

Groupthink is not and will never be my way.

Acceptance of gays is not the dominate paradigm in the US, the "Groupthink" of today is homophobia. The whole idea of letting kids know gays exist is to crack this generational groupthink.

Quigley says

I respect Leo's opinion about being inclusive, but reject his right to force said opinions on me.

It is not so much that I want to force opinions on you, but I take it to heart when our pledge says "...liberty and justice for all." I include the LGBT community under the "all" portion of the pledge. The prevailing anti-gay attitude makes gays second-class citizens, divides families, ruins lives, and in the extreme leads to suicides and murders. For gays liberty and justice is lacking. Should we accept this?

So what if your kids grow up to think gays are not abominations to be ostracized? What are you afraid is going to happen? On the up side if the "Groupthink" becomes one of acceptance of gays we have: more intact families; more productive citizens; fewer suicide and runaways; fewer assaults; and are upping the ideals of liberty and justice for all.

I think that we all have a right to our own opinions. If someone wants to be racist, anti-religious, sexist, homophobic, etc. fine. However, I don't think that we have a right to let our opinions allow the situation to exist where the liberty and justice for other Americans be squashed.

Dan8267 says

As long as I get to set the standards.

You don't get to vote unless you can

Even if you were to remove the obvious digs against Tea-publicans and the religious I think that many of them would be effectively eliminated just on the hard science and history stuff.

Bap33 says

compulsery education at the public expense should be haulted, and privatized schooling should be all that exists.

Mr. Bellamy fought to wipe out private schools in favor of public schools. I see the Pledge as part and parcel of his worldview that public schools would form the best avenue for unifying Americans into a homogenous citzenry.

So I guess you'll join me in STANDING DOWN during any public event where the Pledge of Allegiance comes up?

Heraclitusstudent says

leo707 says

Humanity as seemed to evolve to the point where you are either in a large group or you are shit on. Surviving perhaps, but shit on.

First being in a large country doesn't require an allegiance to it, second there are many small countries that are better off than the US.

Maybe small by US standards, but still have populations in the millions.

Sure any country could handle a percentage of residents that don't feel allied with it. However, at some point the country as an entity would dissolve if enough people did not feel allied in a common cause/group.

Heraclitusstudent says

I don't think you understand the nature of propaganda.

I am aware of everything you mentioned.

Heraclitusstudent says

Kids below 10 are products of their families and teenagers are basically the products of their environments. Teenagers in particular are extremely vulnerable to ideas coming from their peers and environment as they seek to form their own identities by copying what they see.

Yes, and...

Heraclitusstudent says

You think kids, teenagers have critical thinking?

Critical thinking as it can be developed and executed by experienced adults? No, but even infants begin their lives and explore their world through critical thinking processes. Children question things incessantly and use critical thinking all the time to come to conclusions. Teenagers are perfectly capable of mature critical thinking skills, but they have to contend with hormones that will short circuit rational thought and lead to easy manipulation and bad choices.

Heraclitusstudent says

When you submit kids to propaganda, they are unable to judge what the effects will be they are unable to judge what the effects will be, and it will have an impact on their identity that they won't be in a position to decide for themselves.

Yes, and that is why I like to encourage propaganda that will guild their actions/thoughts in a positive direction. When the inevitable questions come up a reasoned response and discussion why activity X is OK will help them exercise their critical thinking skills.

FYI, you know what one of my favorite pieces of propaganda was to use on my kids? The show Blues Clues. Yes, if they were going to watch TV I would subject them to a show that time-after-time drilled into them that you gather evidence before coming to a conclusion. Every show was pretty much the same. A simple, simple lesson on gathering data points and reaching a conclusion. A lesson that more than a few Pnet forum participants could probably use.

Heraclitusstudent says

As for the rest of political, religious, and commercial propaganda, it is obviously just as noxious. I wouldn't submit my kids to any of these if I can at all avoid it. I see no reason why I should treat nationalist propaganda differently.

It is impossible to avoid propaganda. Even in the event that you can manage to be your child's sole source of propaganda until they are 18, when you then release them into the wild they will not have the skills to deal with what they are faced with.

Critical thinking ultimately is about examining data and getting to the truth. I feel that allowing a child controlled -- as controlled as I can manage -- exposure to propaganda can give a child the skills to look behind the veil and expose the truth and/or lies behind it. My kids are still pretty young (almost 4), but they ask enough questions about everything that they are exposed to that I have not needed to initiate any conversation about questionable propaganda.

leo707 says

Sure any country could handle a percentage of residents that don't feel allied with it. However, at some point the country as an entity would dissolve if enough people did not feel allied in a common cause/group.

Being de facto allied and working together doesn't require indoctrination at a young age.

Heraclitusstudent says

leo707 says

Sure any country could handle a percentage of residents that don't feel allied with it. However, at some point the country as an entity would dissolve if enough people did not feel allied in a common cause/group.

Being de facto allied and working together doesn't require indoctrination at a young age.

True, and indoctrination at a young age does not assure alliance.

Look at all the Tea-publicans who -- probably with moistening eyes -- have recited the pledge sense their youth. The venom and hate that they spread, and the division they seek in our country runs entirely counter to the pledge.

Heraclitusstudent says

You think kids, teenagers have critical thinking?

FYI, here is an amusing American Life episode on kids exercising their logic.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/188/kid-logic

Teaser:
"These stories are like jokes and they're also like poems. Because there's this a-ha quality to them, some connection is made between things, a surprising connection, a wrong connection, actually. And part of what makes these so satisfying as stories is that the logic in them is perfectly reasonable and, at the same time, completely and utterly wrong."

leo707 says

FYI, you know what one of my favorite pieces of propaganda was to use on my kids? The show Blues Clues.

Ahhh...Blue's Clues, this reminds me of back when my kids would watch the show I suggested it to my old pal shrekgrinch.

leo707 says

I know that in general “facts” don’t matter to you[shrekgrinch], but you would come off as smarter if you would not make nonsensical broad generalizations, based on preconceived notions, without thinking them through first. Your process seems to be a little backward.

Shrek buddy you seem to love packing you favorite pair of fishnet nylons with bull’s feces, and using it to pound out messages to the internet on your keyboard. But, pal you need to understand that, while you may be giggling maniacally thinking about how clever you are, with every slap that wet mess seeps and splatters. Whether you realize it or not, all that flurry of activity translates to others on the internet as … well… bullshit…

If you slowdown and think about what you are writing, not only will you improve the quality/relevance of you comments, you will save yourself from what can only be a disgusting mess at home.

I know this can be a difficult transition, and these things take work and time. There is a simple teaching tool that can help you through this process. I don’t know if you have ever heard of the show “Blue’s Clues”, but I think you are going to love it. It will teach you how to gather data (or “clues” as the show puts it), and then think about the “clues” (i.e. - data) before coming to a conclusion.

http://video.barnesandnoble.com/DVD/Blues-Clues-Classic-Clues/e/97368795747?itm=2&USRI=blues%2Bclues%2Bseason%2B1

I hope this info helps you out buddy!

I have made an effort to be less of an asshole in my sarcastic comments.

My favorite childhood propaganda was Sesame Street!

One! Ah ah ah! Two! Ah ah ah! Three! Ah ah ah...

freak80 says

My favorite childhood propaganda was Sesame Street!

One! Ah ah ah! Two! Ah ah ah! Three! Ah ah ah...

Hmmm...and they did always have those two gay characters cohabiting.

leo707 says

Like it or not the Pledge is an insignificant drop in the deluge of propaganda people are subject to these days. How many Americans today have greater loyalty to a corporate brand, religion, or political party than they do to the United States of America? This is of course because they are buying into the propaganda -- which is often heavily steeped in lies.

I think that the values in the American Pledge are, for the most part, good. And as propaganda guides behavior I would encourage its use; while as the same time I think it should be a "safe" ground to open discussion about the validity of it and other propaganda. If the American Pledge has similar pronouncements of love and blind obedience as some of the other loyalty pledges I cited I would be telling a different story.

I agree completely.

Again, as a teacher, I preside over kids saying the pledge a couple times a week, in a high school. And a very small number opt out. Currently I don't have any in my 9th grade "homeroom" that opt out. To me opting out feels like hating on America.

Why ?

Because, the pledge is really about pledging allegiance to what we want America to be. If we have some serious issues with where the country is, that doesn't take away from "and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

You aren't just pledging allegiance to America. You're pledging allegiance to what America is supposed to be,...to what it strives to be.

Dan8267 says

- explain in detail how we know evolution is a fact and how it works right down to the molecular level

- explain the Big Bang Theory or the Theory of Relativity

All of those things are myths created by Libruhls.

Dan8267 says

- accurate state how big and how old the Earth is

The earth is only big enough for white people to inhabit. The earth is less than 10,000 years old.

Dan8267 says

- show mankind's immigration paths out of Africa

The first humans were white and lived in the Garden of Eden. Everybody knows that.

Dan8267 says

- point out the following countries on a world map: U.S., Canada, Mexico, Australia, U.K., France, Span, Portugal, Germany, Austria, Italy, Libya, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Russia, China, Japan, Mongolia, Brazil, and Panama. This list can be expanded, but that's a start.

The U.S. is the only country in the world that matters. There's no point in learning where other countries are located.

Dan8267 says

- explain how the American Civil War was about slavery and human rights, and not about states' rights

The Civil War was really the War of Northern Aggression. Lincoln just wanted to prove he had a big dick.

Dan8267 says

- explain why the Magna Carta is important

Why do we care about magnetic carts?

Dan8267 says

- describe the progressive movement and the benefits it created

Evil Socialists!

Dan8267 says

- explain how a microwave oven cooks food

- explain how the Internet works

- explain the various technologies that allow digital video to be distributed all over the world

God does it.

Dan8267 says

- explain the difference between iron and steel and why one is stronger than the other

God makes one stronger than the other.

Dan8267 says

- explain why Reaganomics is bullshit

Reagan IS God.

Dan8267 says

- disprove the existence of any omnipotent being using only a priori logic.

Of course Allah is fictional. Every good Christian knows that.

leo707 says

Hmmm...and they did always have those two gay characters cohabiting.

Hilarious. :-D

leo707 says

Look at all the Tea-publicans who -- probably with moistening eyes -- have recited the pledge sense their youth. The venom and hate that they spread, and the division they seek in our country runs entirely counter to the pledge.

so you think Tea Party members are hateful ?

Black Tea Party Activists Called 'Traitors'

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/06/black-tea-party-activists-called-traitors/

ALBANY, N.Y. – They've been called Oreos, traitors and Uncle Toms, and are used to having to defend their values. Now black conservatives are really taking heat for their involvement in the mostly white tea party movement — and for having the audacity to oppose the policies of the nation's first black president.

"I've been told I hate myself. I've been called an Uncle Tom. I've been told I'm a spook at the door," said Timothy F. Johnson, chairman of the Frederick Douglass Foundation, a group of black conservatives who support free market principles and limited government.

"Black Republicans find themselves always having to prove who they are. Because the assumption is the Republican Party is for whites and the Democratic Party is for blacks," he said.

Black Tea Party Leaders Accuse Obama Of Racism: 'Democrats Have Re-Enslaved America'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/04/black-tea-party-leaders-a_n_670560.html

The black members said the racism that has been attributed to the tea party movement came from outsiders who infiltrated the groups to discredit their work and it should be rejected.

"These people do not oppose Barack Obama because of his skin color. They oppose him because of his policies," said Lloyd Marcus, a spokesman for the group.

The NAACP last month approved a resolution condemning racism within the tea party movement and called on activists to "repudiate the racist element and activities" within the political movement.

At the news conference, several members assailed Obama and the Democrats, often in harsh terms.

"Democrats have re-enslaved America," said Kevin Jackson, president of the Black Conservative Coalition. He said tea party activists, if successful, would reduce the size of government and set in motion another Emancipation Proclamation, the document that President Abraham Lincoln signed that effectively ended slavery.

"This time, even the white folks get freed," said Jackson, who accused Obama of viewing fellow blacks as "mongrels."

Democratic National Committee spokesman Hari Sevugan declined to respond to the tea party leaders' criticism. The White House also declined to comment.

Dan8267 says

The American Pledge of Allegiance, like all pledges of allegiance to anything, are inherently wrong. Allegiance should be constantly earned, not given for the simple matter of being born into a tribe. The very concept of a pledge of allegiance is repugnant to any free thinking person. Ironically, the American Pledge of Allegiance is entirely Unamerican in every principle it demands others to pledge. What a disgusting work. I've always hated it.

AND YOU CALL YOUR SELF A CONSTITUTIONALIST ... OH THATS RICH !

Sounds like your against the US Constitution and therefore would not uphold our laws.
Your at odds with the founders of the this country..
NO..... ITS YOU WHO IS UNAMERICAN...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_office_of_the_President_of_the_United_States

The oath of office of the President of the United States is an oath or affirmation required by the United States Constitution before the President begins the execution of the office.

The wording is specified in Article Two, Section One, Clause Eight:

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:—

“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

leo707 says

For a little perspective...

Compare this to the Wehrmacht Oath of Loyalty in 1934 Germany:

"I swear by God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath."

your not being truthful here...

Although the popular view is that Hitler drafted the oath himself and imposed it on the military, in truth it oath was the initiative of Defence Minister General Werner von Blomberg and General Walther von Reichenau, the chief of the Ministerial Office.

Indeed, Hitler was surprised by the oath.[1] Before Hitler took office, the military swore the Reichswehreid to the German constitution and president. The intention of Blomberg and Reichenau in having the military swear an oath to Hitler was to create a personal special bond between him and the military, which was intended to tie Hitler more tightly towards the military and away from the NSDAP. Years later, Blomberg admitted that he did not think through the full implications of the oath at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_oath

When George Washington and all other presidents were taking the OATH of office,
were they also doing a Sieg Heil ? you so called Progressive Liberals are really screwed up ...

thomaswong.1986 says

your not being truthful here...

Why hello again here Thomas. Say, when you are done telling everyone all about hitler & such, you might want to circle back around to the "republican party in 10 years" thread since the ball is in your court. As a refresher:

1. You said SF suffered economic declines from 1960 til 2000, while SJ experienced economic gains during the same (1960-2000) timeperiod.

2. Your chart shows that from 1975-2000 home prices in both SF and SJ moved in lockstep. If home price is tied to economic performance, how is this possible? How can this be?

It was refreshing to see you initially respond to me in an honest and direct answer. However, as (i believe) you realized how at the end of the day you are going to have to back off of item 1 or 2 above, you went to your usual well of responding with tangential non-issue after tangential non-issue.

Thusfar, I have put each and every tangential non-issue into the asked and answered column and will continue to do so if necessary. That said, can you now address the central issue here? Feel free to respond to me here or in the original thread -- but in either event, good luck!

CDon says

1. You said SF suffered economic declines from 1960 til 2000, while SJ experienced economic gains during the same (1960-2000) timeperiod.

2. Your chart shows that from 1975-2000 home prices in both SF and SJ moved in lockstep. If home price is tied to economic performance, how is this possible? How can this be?

very simple SC/SJ didnt have a bubble mentality from 1960 to mid 90s.... you know of any bubbles in stock wages or home prices ?

Your stuck in this notion if someone made an extra 5-10% it went to housing when it actually went to savings..

its no surprise SF economy was declining since the 50s..and that continued into the early 90s.
normal jobs kept the prices flat adjusted for inflation. a home was just another home in SF and it wasnt anything glamorous !

thomaswong.1986 says

very simple we didnt have a bubble mentality from 1960 to mid 90s.... you
know of any bubbles in stock wages or home prices ?

I am willing to concede that too - put that too into the "asked & answered" pile, but again, sadly I think you are deliberately trying to skirt the issue here. In case that's not really whats going on -- in case you truly do not understand, lets try this a little bit differently below is part 1 of 3 yes or no questions.

1. Going back to your precious FHFA housing chart, home prices in San Francisco and San Jose move pretty much in lockstep from 1975 to 2000. Basically, when one went up, so did the other -- and when one went down, so did the other. I think this is painfully obviously correct, but I have to ask do you agree with this? Yes or No?

CDon says

1. Going back to your precious FHFA housing chart, home prices in San Francisco and San Jose move pretty much in lockstep from 1975 to 2000. Basically, when one went up, so did the other -- and when one went down, so did the other. I think this is painfully obviously correct, but I have to ask do you agree with this? Yes or No?

they were all pretty much flat up to 1998..didnt matter if you were a Govt paid Civil engineer or a Tech HW/SW Engineer. Home prices were not that radically different across much of Bay Area.

Would it surprise you to see a home of equal size in SF or SJ at around 150K ?

thomaswong.1986 says

they were all pretty much flat up to 1998

OK, so I think we are on the same page here, you are saying in sum, yes, home prices in SF and SJ were both flat for the 1975-1998 period. Yes?

CDon says

OK, so I think we are on the same page here, you are saying in sum, yes, home prices in SF and SJ were both flat for the 1975-1998 period. Yes?

and how long have you been in SFBA ?

I am not in the SFBA.

Again, if this is really really important to the overall discussion or theme of what you are trying to convey to us, I promise I will come back to this once we finish with my items 1-3. But in the mean time lets consider this asked and answered and move on.

So again, I think we are on the same page here, but I want to be sure. When you say, "they were all pretty much flat up to 1998" you are saying in sum, yes, home prices in SF and SJ were both flat for the 1975-1998 period. Yes?

From what city/state are you from ?

Arlington, VA.

Is that enough? Are you now ready to answer the yes or no question (part 1 of 3)?

I wanna answer parts 5 & 6, but then again i've always been a day early and a dollar ahead....

CDon says

Arlington, VA.

Is that enough? Are you now ready to answer the yes or no question (part 1 of 3)?

CDon says

Arlington, VA.

Is that enough? Are you now ready to answer the yes or no question (part 1 of 3)?

the answer for SFBA is the same as the answer for your region...mid Atlantic.

what can you tell us about your region..... same old song and dance..

http://web.archive.org/web/20110722134334/http://www.housingbubblebust.com/OFHEO/Major/MidAtlantic.html

thomaswong.1986 says

CDon says

Arlington, VA.

Is that enough? Are you now ready to answer the yes or no question (part 1 of 3)?

the answer for SFBA is the same as the answer for your region...mid Atlantic.

what can you tell us about your region..... same old song and dance..

http://web.archive.org/web/20110722134334/http://www.housingbubblebust.com/OFHEO/Major/MidAtlantic.html

Actually, no. Not in the slightest. See, I would never, never, NEVER suggest that any one of those areas was going through 50 years of economic decline, while one or all of the others were enjoying economic prosperity. Not with the way all those trendlines were moving in lockstep (basically all flat up til 1998). Granted, you could say some are underperforming or overperforming relative to the others, but they are all experiencing some modicum of economic prosperity. But again, we are getting waaaaay ahead of ourselves.

So again, just for absolute clarity, when you say, "they were all pretty much flat up to 1998" you are saying in sum, yes, home prices in SF and SJ were both flat for the 1975-1998 period. Yes?