patrick.net

lostand confused says

Welfare is stopgap and the country should look to regain its competetive advantage. if we can't compete against dollar a day wages, then at least restrict access to our markets or force our leaders to come up with better solutions.

I agree with your post.

Here's one way to get a competitive advantage:

* Tariff trade partners who don't float their currency.
* Weaken the US dollar.
* Abrogate the WTO and GATT agreements. They'd fail without our 100% support anyway. Got back to bilateral trade agreements, negotiated one on one for maximum gain for both parties, rather than for the corpratists.
* Make a 50% minimum US origin for any and all government contracts, or any programs sponsored in part by Federal Taxpayers.

* Adopt the Swedish Unemployment System, where before getting a visa a company must prove there are no qualified Swedes by interviewing multiple candidates that the Labor Department has judged as qualified based on the job description and explaining why each and every one wasn't qualified when the government's HR people said they were. Then paying a fine if they reject all of them.
* Also, before applying for a visa, company must publish salary at 15% above market rates, according to the BLS and not their HR's BS, and advertise it nationally in national papers and websites, not in the local Laotian Community Newsletter (which is what they do today to get around a different version of this law, that only requires 'publication'). If you can't find a qualified applicant in a country with a third of a billion people, with the highest college attendance rates and the finest schools in the world, it's probably your fault for being a cheapskate. Or, more likely, HR is lying to you about applications they received and are only showing you a portion of the candidates.

lostand confused says

Welfare is stopgap and the country should look to regain its competetive advantage. if we can't compete against dollar a day wages, then at least restrict access to our markets or force our leaders to come up with better solutions

its hardly $1 dollar a day wage in all cases, given other nations industries are dumping below cost to produce... therefore your not competing against wages.. just reinforce anti-dumping polices.... and there is plenty of that going on !

for one..let US companies sue foreigner companies for dumping on US markets below cost to manufacture.

thunderlips11 says

* Adopt the Swedish Unemployment System, where before getting a visa a company must prove there are no qualified Swedes by interviewing multiple candidates that the Labor Department has judged as qualified based on the job description and explaining why each and every one wasn't qualified when the government's HR people said they were. Then paying a fine if they reject all of them.

so how is that going to prevent a foreigner from switching professions... say a Chinese engineer coming to SV and withing 2-3 years drops from the profession and becomes a Real Estate agent selling homes for newer Chinese buyers.

tatupu70 says

You are 100% incorrect there. Every dollar that is transferred from the 1% to the bottom 20% via welfare is one dollar of INCREASED economic activity. The bottom 20% spends it almost immediately whereas the 1% hoard it and take it essentially out of circulation.

there is no hoarding... they are freeling investing it into new ventures... we read about it very often every quarter... Billions every quarter are spent on new jobs, purchases, and renting new facilities.. Very Very Very much added to our economy and freely circulating... Billions Billions Billions!

https://www.pwcmoneytree.com/MTPublic/ns/index.jsp

thomaswong.1986 says

so how is that going to prevent a foreigner from switching professions... say a Chinese engineer coming to SV and withing 2-3 years drops from the profession and becomes a Real Estate agent selling homes for newer Chinese buyers.

I don't see how immigrants switching careers has anything to do with this. This is about a company being forced to consider qualified applicants by the Unemployment Office, and having to explain why each and every one isn't qualified. It stops visa abuse to get lower wage workers, which isn't what visas are for. They're for crucial shortages.

Those who think people simply enjoy being unemployed, kicking back and collecting the money should back this 100%.

thunderlips11 says

I don't see how immigrants switching careers has anything to do with this. This is about a company being forced to consider qualified applicants by the Unemployment Office, and having to explain why each and every one isn't qualified. It stops visa abuse to get lower wage workers, which isn't what visas are for. They're for crucial shortages.

The employer has to go back and import a second and maybe the third time another immigrant for that same position. That too is a form of abuse.
Now we have more supply of labor than demand can cover.

tatupu70 says

I know it probably helps you sleep at night to think that all welfare recipients are lazy SOBs, but I challenge you to live on welfare and then get back to me with how easy it was.

See the difference is that it would be (just as being on unemployment was for me) incentive for me to change something, anything to get off it and do better for myself and my family. I've done some crappy jobs that would have made working for McDonalds or WalMart a walk in the park. Far too many welfare folks lack that incentive, that motivation - and if you can and do get by on welfare than there is very little reason to change. I can't say I'd be off welfare in a year, but odds are pretty high that I would be.

thunderlips11 says

Make a 50% minimum US origin for any and all government contracts, or any programs sponsored in part by Federal Taxpayers.

Why so low? I'd make it 100%.

spydah_hh says

You're so stuck into the phony belief that spending creates growth and that if we don't spend everything we have we get no economic activity and etc.

Spending does create growth, but the second part of your statement is typical hyperbole gibberish.

spydah_hh says

If everyone spent all their money for the year, then how is it credit can be established? How can the average person take out a loan for mortgage if all the money has been spent?

Strawman. Nobody is advocating for everyone to spend all their money.

spydah_hh says

In a sound real economy a loan is from SAVINGS. If everyone decided to save 10% of their money for the year then we can establish credit and investments. Banks will lend money to sound investments and not these phony BS stuff like twitter which hasn't made a fuking profit since day one but yet is worth 47 billion dollars or to students who are doomed to repay their loans.

Nobody is arguing that people shouldn't save some of their money.

spydah_hh says

But hey in today's world why would a bank even care if their loaning money out recklessly? Because a.) the government will bail them out and b.) the government is encouraging everyone to spend their money since it's counterfeiting it anyway. Oh wait I forgot the FDIC will come in and bail everyone out with more counterfeits. Giving people still more of a reason to not care about reckless spending and malinvestments.

Got it. You hate bailouts. I wish they weren't necessary either. What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

spydah_hh says

You sir need to learn how a real economy works and stop living in the lie. You'll soon sadly wake up to it WSHTF, but with your knowledge you'll be too late to do anything about it.

lol--I pretty secure in my knowledge of how the real economy works. The shit may hit the fan, but it won't be because of a weak dollar--that much is clear. It will be because the wealth disparity is at record levels--levels not seen since 1929. Funny, some people just don't learn from history.

indigenous says

tatupu70 says

The problem is that for every entitled unearned dollar that is extracted from the economy which makes that much less economic opportunity.

You are 100% incorrect there. Every dollar that is transferred from the 1% to the bottom 20% via welfare is one dollar of INCREASED economic activity. The bottom 20% spends it almost immediately whereas the 1% hoard it and take it essentially out of circulation

More Keynesian blather

In other words--you realize I'm right and have no reply.

Call it Crazy says

Hey Tat, No need to get all angry and start fighting with others...

Guess what?

You're getting a raise in two days, just think how rich you'll be!!!

NJ minimum wage sees $1 bump on Jan. 1

TRENTON — A quarter-million low-wage workers will get raises Wednesday, when a change in the New Jersey constitution kicks in and increases the state’s minimum wage from $7.25 to $8.25 per hour.

http://www.app.com/viewart/20131230/NJBIZ/312300027/NJ-minimum-wage-sees-1-bump-Jan-1

Well done--I wouldn't want you to lose your #1 troll standing.

tatupu70 says

lol--I pretty secure in my knowledge of how the real economy works. The shit may hit the fan, but it won't be because of a weak dollar--that much is clear. It will be because the wealth disparity is at record levels--levels not seen since 1929. Funny, some people just don't learn from history.

Wow that is 180 deg of reality. The number one most likely reason for the SHTF will be currency debasement.

indigenous says

The number one most likely reason for the SHTF will be currency debasement.

OK--please explain why. Foreign goods will be more expensive. This will reduce our trade deficit and bring jobs back to the US.

tatupu70 says

indigenous says

The number one most likely reason for the SHTF will be currency debasement.

OK--please explain why. Foreign goods will be more expensive. This will reduce our trade deficit and bring jobs back to the US.

It is not that the foreign goods will go up in cost it will be that the dollar goes down in value. This is simply because when you create more of something it is less valuable, i.e. inflation.

It would help the trade deficit except many countries are doing the same thing as us and we have a trade war so it doesn't really change much except with China as they can no longer devalue their currency.

The thing about money is that it boils down to confidence when people lose confidence (that they can trade your paper for other goods) then it is no longer money.

indigenous says

It is not that the foreign goods will go up in cost it will be that the dollar goes down in value. This is simply because when you create more of something it is less valuable, i.e. inflation.

No, foreign goods go up in cost. It will take more dollars to buy them. That's the definition of going up in cost.

indigenous says

It would help the trade deficit except many countries are doing the same thing as us and we have a trade war so it doesn't really change much except with China as they can no longer devalue their currency.

The thing about money is that it boils down to confidence when people lose confidence (that they can trade your paper for other goods) then it is no longer money.

Still waiting for how a weaker dollar causes the shit to hit the fan. Are you planning on giving your explanation?

Minimum Variable Wages are not a job killer per se...they really only increase the variable unit cost of production. That is, minimum wages increase prices as they limit supply of goods.

Producers produce until marginal cost = marginal revenue. Diminishing marginal returns ensure loss of productivity at increasing levels of production.

Fixed employment costs (such as tying health care to employment) lower total employment, not marginal costs.

tatupu70 says

indigenous says

It would help the trade deficit except many countries are doing the same thing as us and we have a trade war so it doesn't really change much except with China as they can no longer devalue their currency.

The thing about money is that it boils down to confidence when people lose confidence (that they can trade your paper for other goods) then it is no longer money.

Still waiting for how a weaker dollar causes the shit to hit the fan. Are you planning on giving your explanation?

By inflation or hyperinflation.

lostand confused says

Well if they didn't get welfare,t hen they may actually demand better jobs and the politicians to do their job
Tatupu says
You're living in a fantasy world. You think people on welfare are there because they aren't "demanding" better jobs? I didn't know that was an option. Where can I go to "demand" a better paying job? Board of Director meetings? City Hall? Please share the process.lostand confused says

I suspect that lostandconfused is actually correct. Welfare has increased by leaps and bounds as inequality has increased in lockstep. Throughout this, government policy has been to keep increasing social welfare programs to feed and house the poor. The poor class has grown to massive proportion due to all the jobs lost from the economy.
I believe that the wealthy elite are in favor of welfare as a necessary evil to keep the underclasses under control. As long as these jobless people can feed themselves and their children, they won't revolt. Revolution is scary, and won't happen unless people have no other choice. It's also scary as hell to the rulers of America, so paying off the poor is a fair trade to them being allowed to keep playing their game of monopoly. Keeping the masses pacified is key.
That's why the big movement to legalize marijuana is gaining such traction. It's a perfect drug to keep people content with poverty and rob them of both ambition and motivation.

If welfare was cut off tomorrow, you'd see riots by next week.
Our owners do not want that.

indigenous says

By inflation or hyperinflation.

Ah, yes. The dreaded hyperinflation that has been "just around the corner" for the last 30 years.

How much has the dollar been weakened since 1980? With no effect? But now, it's going to lead to hyperinflation?

Call it Crazy says

Oh Boy.... Hey Tat, I hope your wife handles the checkbook in your house...

I don't run my checking account so low that I really have to worry about it. But it's nice to see you are so concerned.

fyi--I'm 100% correct. I'm not sure why indigenous felt the need to point out something that I had just posted one post earlier...

Quigley says

believe that the wealthy elite are in favor of welfare as a necessary evil to keep the underclasses under control.

I disagree. Right wingers (the spokespeople of the 1%) continue to this day to try to cut welfare.

Quigley says

As long as these jobless people can feed themselves and their children, they won't revolt. Revolution is scary, and won't happen unless people have no other choice.

True, but there was no revolution in 1930. Things would have to get pretty scary before any real revolution would take hold...

tatupu70 says

How much has the dollar been weakened since 1980? With no effect? But now, it's going to lead to hyperinflation?

I think the tipping point will be when inflation forces the FED to raise the interest rates, which will turn the 200 billion or so in debt service into a trillion or so in debt service. At that point the FED will have no choice but to inflate.

Tatupu, the point you're missing is that the wealthy elite control the dialogue on BOTH sides of the aisle! This is required mummery to bamboozle the public into believing there is still a debate. Actual public policy is a much more accurate way
To determine the nation's direction than whatver garbage the politicians and pundits are spewing on talk shows and news channels. When it comes down to actually making laws the public has to deal with, the policy becomes clear.
Right wingers and left wingers are just doing their jobs to polarize the public against each other, so the real rulers keep the attention off what they are doing to us.
See: Chinese chicken processors and the USDA.

indigenous says

I think the tipping point will be when inflation forces the FED to raise the interest rates, which will turn the 200 billion or so in debt service into a trillion or so in debt service. At that point the FED will have no choice but to inflate.

You just said everyone else is weakening their currency as well. Why will the Fed need to raise rates??

Call it Crazy says

Quigley says

Keeping the masses pacified is key.

Keeping them pacified with YOUR money....

It is worthy of note how quickly this tipping point will occur.

tatupu70 says

indigenous says

I think the tipping point will be when inflation forces the FED to raise the interest rates, which will turn the 200 billion or so in debt service into a trillion or so in debt service. At that point the FED will have no choice but to inflate.

You just said everyone else is weakening their currency as well. Why will the Fed need to raise rates??

To stave on inflation

Quigley says

Right wingers and left wingers are just doing their jobs to polarize the public against each other, so the real rulers keep the attention off what they are doing to us.

I guess I don't see quite as large of a conspiracy as you do. That's getting into bgamall territory, IMO.

indigenous says

To stave on inflation

But only foreign goods will be rising. Inflation won't be rampant and raising rates won't help anyway. It's not demand-pull inflation...

tatupu70 says

indigenous says

To stave on inflation

But only foreign goods will be rising. Inflation won't be rampant and raising rates won't help anyway. It's not demand-pull inflation...

Note to self: never argue with an idiot

Call it Crazy says

Why wasn't there a revolution in 1930? Because there was nothing to "lose" (except your job).....

What does the entitlement crowd do when they "lose" Extended UE, EBT cards, Section 8, Obamaphones, Long Term Disability, Medicaid, and all the other entitlement "Freebies"?? A lot of those programs didn't exist in 1930....

You are insane. People don't revolt becuase they lose LTD. They revolt becuase they can't feed their family. Because they are dying of cold. Look throughout history.

indigenous says

Note to self: never argue with an idiot

2nd note to you--do some research before attempting to discuss matters that you are unfamiliar with.

Call it Crazy says

People don't feed their families from the cash or cash equivalent they gain from these programs??? Really???

Not sure. Do Obamaphones taste good?

tatupu70 says

Quigley says

Right wingers and left wingers are just doing their jobs to polarize the public against each other, so the real rulers keep the attention off what they are doing to us.

I guess I don't see quite as large of a conspiracy as you do. That's getting into bgamall territory, IMO.

Who exactly do you think owns all major news outlets and media organizations? Do you think that this is an anomaly? Something that is totally a wierd but meaningless coincidence?
It's not a large conspiracy, or even a particularly well-guarded one. It's more of a "fuck you we run the show" sort of thing.
And yes, they do like to use money from the middle class to pay for welfare for the lower classes, who need it because the wealthy elite has offshored all the jobs the less intellectually able are capable of performing!
Driving through all of this, in the right and left camps, is the philosophy of elitism. That the most able, the smartest, and the cleverest should and will prosper while everyone else can please die.
Republicans advance this idea in many ways.
Democrats also promote this, in more subtle ways like advocating for more college access (assuming everyone is able to be a good student), and calling their right-wing detractors inbred idiots. It's all hate on the less intelligent. Who will still be among us! We don't need to put everyone with 90 IQ or less on welfare. We need them to have jobs that let them maintain self-respect and be contributors to society rather than useless leeches.

Quigley says

Who exactly do you think owns all major news outlets and media organizations? Do you think that this is an anomaly? Something that is totally a wierd but meaningless coincidence?

So, does the owner tell every reporter and every new director what they can report on? The owner decides what airs on Fox45 in Omaha, Nebraska? Or NBC5 in Provo, Utah? Again--I find it difficult to believe that every reporter is getting muzzled. Guys who make it their life's work to find conspiracies.... I don't buy it.

To me, it's much more reasonable to think that the 1% buys off politicians to advance their agenda.

tatupu70 says

You are insane. People don't revolt becuase they lose LTD. They revolt
becuase they can't feed their family. Because they are dying of cold. Look
throughout history.

Russian peasants revolted because they wanted "land, peace and bread." America's poor already have "peace and bread" and they are able to rent their "land." Additionally, they have food that exceeds the "bread" level, electronics, automobiles and nice ol' laundry room on tv. The chances for revolution are mimimal.

It's much more subtle than that. The owners give the editors guidelines for their media. The editors decide what will be printed or aired. The reporters and writers quickly learn what will and will not be printed. If they have a story rejected, they have to replace it with another story, at a loss of time to themselves. So they learn the rules and abide by them voluntarily. After all, the news business has become ultra competitive. If they can't produce for their bosses, they will be replaced.
That's how it actually works.
Google around, you might learn something.

Quigley says

Who exactly do you think owns all major news outlets and media organizations? Do
you think that this is an anomaly? Something that is totally a wierd but
meaningless coincidence?

At national level of politics, you find that both reps and dems are significantly over-represented in terms of being 1 percenters so of course they are gonna do all that they can to advance their own interests.

Quigley says

After all, the news business has become ultra competitive. If they can't produce for their bosses, they will be replaced.

That's how it actually works.

And none of those guys has the ability/will to create a blog detailing the stories that his editor wouldn't run? Sorry--I don't buy it.

tatupu70 says

Quigley says

After all, the news business has become ultra competitive. If they can't produce for their bosses, they will be replaced.

That's how it actually works.

And none of those guys has the ability/will to create a blog detailing the stories that his editor wouldn't run? Sorry--I don't buy it.

They do! There's got to be hundreds of blogs started and written by ex-journalists! Many are saying the exact same things I am saying here! Where do you think I got these opinions? Seriously, take a peek outside your turtle shell. Your head must come out of the sand for you to see anything.

Quigley says

They do! There's got to be hundreds of blogs started and written by ex-journalists! Many are saying the exact same things I am saying here! Where do you think I got these opinions? Seriously, take a peek outside your turtle shell. Your head must come out of the sand for you to see anything.

OK--could you link to a few of them? Not sure why you wouldn't have done that from the start...

I did a quick search for media controlled or mainstream media conspiracy and got a bunch of nutjob websites talking about Jews or left wingers.