patrick.net

mell says

Plus atheists cannot answer the question what was there before the big-bang or who created the massive and dense energy that erupted into the big-bang.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ro0yZyVR0Qk

There was nothing before the Big Bang. Time and space are curved at the singularity. Asking what happened a minute before the Big Bang is like asking what is located one mile north of the north pole; it is a meaningless question.

As such, the universe was not created and no one created it. Time is finite in the past direction, and the universe has existed for all of that finite amount of time.

If a god had created the universe, that would just move the question to what created the god? If the answer is that the god was not created and always exist, then just conclude that the universe was not created and always exist. Or to put it in terms that the religious would have: the universe itself is god, but god is not a sentient being. God is unaware, has no morality, and does not even know of the existence of mankind. God is just the mundane laws of nature, and it provides no afterlife and no moral guidance. Can you accept that god? Can you be agnostic about that god? God is nothing more than the universe itself, and all religions are lies about god.

Now, if you are willing to redefine god like that, I'm a firm believer in god. Of course, such a god merits understanding, but no worship. And there are no holy books, no resurrected Jesus, no afterlife, no soul, no free will. Are you still willing to call it god?

Never make a statement like "atheists cannot answer the question" unless you're damn sure they can't. This was an easy question to answer; all it takes is honesty.

kashif313 says

Also, do we really understand the Big Bang? Can you mathematically explain the singularity found in the big bang and black holes? If you cant explain this, then the phenomena of existence itself cannot be explained. Is this your claim to the "known" - you're citing the big bang theory and hanging your hat on it? Wow - nice argument.

Wow... The big bang happened. Existence exists. Ergo God exists, ergo afterlife exists, ergo religions must be true - all of them. Ergo everything that happened after the big bang was meant to happen....
Seriously. What crap!

mell says

Plus atheists cannot answer the question what was there before the big-bang or who created the massive and dense energy that erupted into the big-bang.

The fact that something is not known - or even cannot be known - is not evidence that what is known is not known, and is even less evidence that some random other statement (like God exists) is true.

Heraclitusstudent says

kashif313 says

Also, do we really understand the Big Bang? Can you mathematically explain the singularity found in the big bang and black holes? If you cant explain this, then the phenomena of existence itself cannot be explained. Is this your claim to the "known" - you're citing the big bang theory and hanging your hat on it? Wow - nice argument.

Wow... The big bang happened. Existence exists. Ergo God exists, ergo afterlife exists, ergo religions must be true - all of them. Ergo everything that happened after the big bang was meant to happen....

Seriously. What crap!

Never said all religions are true.

By the way, you never answered the question - explain singularity - the point at which physics and the what is "known" breaks down....still waiting. I know it's far easier to call names and deflect from the argument presented than to actually address the issues at hand. Perhaps you know as well as I do that even the "known" universe isn't really known. Can you explain dark energy and dark matter? That is 96% percent of what is known and even that is an unknown. In fact, we do not even have scientific/mathematical equations to explain the phenomena.

So, what exactly is the basis of your argument? Let's start with there is no God....you can take it from there. Im listening....

Dan8267 says

Agnostics are closeted atheists who don't want to risk offending the stupid.

I'm not an agnostic myself, but agnosticism is valid from a purely logical perspective, and is mostly sufficient to eliminate random beliefs about things we don't know.

Dan8267 says

There was nothing before the Big Bang. Time and space are curved at the singularity. Asking what happened a minute before the Big Bang is like asking what is located one mile north of the north pole; it is a meaningless question.

This is simply not true unless you put yourself above the experts (physicists, believers or not) who do not have an answer to this question but different theories exist. And it's not a challenge, it's a fact. The rest you wrote I have no issues with, there are plenty of people who believe that the universe and mankind is one and may just exist without a special "creating conscience", but that doesn't mean that there cannot be other dimensions of existence.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

Agnostics are closeted atheists who don't want to risk offending the stupid.

I'm not an agnostic myself, but agnosticism is valid from a purely logical perspective, and is mostly sufficient to eliminate random beliefs about things we don't know.

I have heard this before and even mentioned this in a previous post, I am not sure where this is coming from. In this modern materialistic age I would say most youngsters are not afraid of anything (except for not having the latest and greatest smartphone) so it would seem illogical to me that today's agnostics are afraid of someone. Maybe some of them are simply too lazy or pragmatic to ponder over this, but I don't think they are afraid. And especially if you acknowledge that you may not comprehend some or all aspects of the paranormal - should it exist - then it makes somewhat sense to focus on the moment and carpe diem.

Heraclitusstudent says

mell says

Plus atheists cannot answer the question what was there before the big-bang or who created the massive and dense energy that erupted into the big-bang.

The fact that something is not known - or even cannot be known - is not evidence that what is known is not known, and is even less evidence that some random other statement (like God exists) is true.

Then it will end as it always does with anyone who believes in chance and not a Creator...to you your way and to me mine-I do not follow your thought process and you refuse to acknowledge the work of a supreme being. Fair enough, let us agree to disagree and live out our lives according to our tenets - that's freedom.

Good Luck

http://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=12694

Just a quick search result example for the open discussion around the big bang.

kashif313 says

By the way, you never answered the question - explain singularity - the point at which physics and the what is "known" breaks down....still waiting.

What happens at the singularity is not something that is known. It's not described by known laws of physics.

And it is not relevant either to what I said above.

kashif313 says

Perhaps you know as well as I do that even the "known" universe isn't really known. Can you explain dark energy and dark matter?

There are no scientists or atheists here that claim everything is known. That is a strawman and a false dichotomy: "either everything is known to science or science must be wrong".

I repeat again: The fact that something is not known - or even cannot be known - is not evidence that what is known is not known, and is even less evidence that some random other statement (like God exists) is true.

And we do have a chain of known facts between the big bang and now. So what? How does this mean that everything "happened by chance"? How does it imply that "God must exist"?

I answered your question. Now answer mine.

Dan8267 said, "Why assume only one god? Why not tens of thousands of gods bickering over how the universe should operate and each with different moral codes? The assumption that there is one and only one god is going far more out of on a limb than assuming no god. Monotheism is a far more radical premise than atheism."

This is a typical argument of those ignorant of actual biblical text. The first commandment specifically states, "You shall have no OTHER gods before me." This is the strongest possible implication that the deity in question believes in other gods, and is jealous of His/Her worshippers. Other places mention magical practitioners and what to do about them (if they do bad things, kill them), and there's a lovely little passage about King David (I think) using a necromancer to call up the spirit of Samuel.
It was only later that catholic theologians downplayed the mystical side of their faith, choosing to relegate God as the source of all things magical.
This is simply not the case, however.

kashif313 says

I do not follow your thought process and you refuse to acknowledge the work of a supreme being. Fair enough, let us agree to disagree and live out our lives according to our tenets - that's freedom.

You mostly refuse to acknowledge what is in fact known.

Your thinking is clear: only top down design can lead to the world as it is.

That's ignoring the fact that bottom-up organization is known to happen, it can be simulated in computers and there is nothing miraculous about it.

Freedom of ignorance indeed.

Quigley says

This is a typical argument of those ignorant of actual biblical text. The first commandment specifically states, "You shall have no OTHER gods before me." This is the strongest possible implication that the deity in question believes in other gods, and is jealous of His/Her worshippers.

Ah... HE must be the real God because he says so. The bible must be true because it says so. Checkmate.

Thank you so much for your proof!

Dan8267 says

Don't give me the bullshit that any agnostic thinks that maybe Garuda, the snake-hating sun god, plausibly could exist. No agnostic puts Garuda on equal footing to Yahweh in terms of possibly existing.

Garuda may have been the prototype of Yahweh. We already know that Akenahten started monotheism with sun god worship.

So-called agnostics almost universally reject polytheism. They are not open-minded. They are conformists. There's a big difference.

There are lots of agnostics who do not reject polytheism or "spiritualism" in the very vague sense.

Heraclitusstudent says

Quigley says

This is a typical argument of those ignorant of actual biblical text. The first commandment specifically states, "You shall have no OTHER gods before me." This is the strongest possible implication that the deity in question believes in other gods, and is jealous of His/Her worshippers.

Ah... HE must be the real God because he says so. The bible must be true because it says so. Checkmate.

Thank you so much for your proof!

hmm, he was saying that the text merely put the deity forward as a tribal deity. Nobody was talking about "the real God."

Reality says

hmm, he was saying that the text merely put the deity forward as a tribal deity. Nobody was talking about "the real God."

I think Dan's argument was "why not imagine something completely different, while we are making things up."
Saying that the Christian god is (was originally) a tribal deity among many doesn't really answer that. Why not stick to the Norse mythology? or the Hindu one?
The only answer is "because the bible says this and that".

Been posted on Pat.net before, bears repeating:

mell says

This is simply not true unless you put yourself above the experts (physicists, believers or not) who do not have an answer to this question but different theories exist.

I'm familiar with the various theories, and none of them use time in the collequal sense. Therefore, the conventional definition of "create", which required that the creator exists in time before the creation, does not apply. Every physicist will tell you that a singularity is a point in which the conventional concept of time breaks down.

In any case, the statement that the one true god is the non-sentient, amoral universe itself still stands.

Quigley says

This is a typical argument of those ignorant of actual biblical text. The first commandment specifically states, "You shall have no OTHER gods before me."

I'm well aware of what your Bible says, but why should I accept it?

">

Your Bible is pure fucking evil. It is a terrible basis for morality.

Heraclitusstudent says

Reality says

hmm, he was saying that the text merely put the deity forward as a tribal deity. Nobody was talking about "the real God."

I think Dan's argument was "why not imagine something completely different, while we are making things up."

Saying that the Christian god is (was originally) a tribal deity among many doesn't really answer that. Why not stick to the Norse mythology? or the Hindu one?

The only answer is "because the bible says this and that".

No. Christianity became influential because a borderline convert (Constantine) either won a major battle and later became Roman Emperor, or that he claimed to have made the conversion because he saw a need for the society to embrace a new religion when the old Roman religion's hold on the society was falling apart.

Parts of Norse myths are still with us, such as Santa Clause. In the land of its tribal origin, they would not have picked a pine tree either, or red sock boots.

thunderlips11 says

Been posted on Pat.net before, bears repeating:

Looks like Anthropogenic Global Warming.

Reality says

Garuda may have been the prototype of Yahweh.

Did you just pull that out of your ass or do you have any evidence whatsoever to support that?

In any case, a god that has a prototype is a false god.

Reality says

There are lots of agnostics who do not reject polytheism or "spiritualism" in the very vague sense.

Show me one agnostic who thinks that Dionysus, the Greek god of wine and orgies, plausibly exists.

Show me one agnostic who thinks that maybe the universe was created by smurfs. Agnostics are highly selective in what they are agnostic about. Their criteria is that if the society they find themselves in is populated by people who believe in myth X, they pretend that myth X is plausible. Otherwise, they say that myth X is ridiculous.

Conformity is not open mindedness.

Dan8267 says

Did you just pull that out of your ass or do you have any evidence whatsoever to support that?

I already told you the logic: Akenahten of ancient Egypt started Monotheism as we know it by mandating sun god worship.

In any case, a god that has a prototype is a false god.

No more false than "government." Both are creatures of people's faith. More importantly, most people apparently need something to worship. "Government" just happens to be a far more dangerous thing to worship than "God"/"gods."

Reality says

Looks like Anthropogenic Global Warming.

Evidence of Climate Change

Evidence of god

Comparing the indisputable fact of climate change to religion is utterly retarded. At this point in time, anyone who claims that climate change is a religious myth is an idiot.

Reality says

No. Christianity became influential because a borderline convert (Constantine) either won a major battle and later became Roman Emperor, or that he claimed to have made the conversion because he saw a need for the society to embrace a new religion when the old Roman religion's hold on the society was falling apart.

I certainly hope no one believes the Bible today for that reason.

Dan8267 says

Reality says

There are lots of agnostics who do not reject polytheism or "spiritualism" in the very vague sense.

Show me one agnostic who thinks that Dionysus, the Greek god of wine and orgies, plausibly exists.

I do. And I'm working on convincing more girls between the ages of 18 and 25 to do the same. Want to come to my Dionysus Party this summer? Bring a pair of boobs and 3-hole fun.

Dan8267 says

Show me one agnostic who thinks that maybe the universe was created by smurfs. Agnostics are highly selective in what they are agnostic about. Their criteria is that if the society they find themselves in is populated by people who believe in myth X, they pretend that myth X is plausible. Otherwise, they say that myth X is ridiculous.

Conformity is not open mindedness.

Logic can not exclude the hypothesis that the entire universe is run by smurfs, who pause the universe at every moment and look up the rule books and move the objects according to the rule books for the next moment. So there, I'm a smurf agnostic.

Dan8267 says

Reality says

Looks like Anthropogenic Global Warming.

Evidence of Climate Change

Evidence of god

Comparing the indisputable fact of climate change to religion is utterly retarded. At this point in time, anyone who claims that climate change is a religious myth is an idiot.

Notice, you avoided the critically important "Anthropogenic" part.

That "anyone who denies . . . is an idiot" attitude is precisely what the cartoon illustrates

Heraclitusstudent says

Reality says

No. Christianity became influential because a borderline convert (Constantine) either won a major battle and later became Roman Emperor, or that he claimed to have made the conversion because he saw a need for the society to embrace a new religion when the old Roman religion's hold on the society was falling apart.

I certainly hope no one believes the Bible today for that reason.

When the Christian Bible fails to do the job, the vast majority of the world's population will be converted to the Koran or something else. The big government religion is just not durable, as the Romans found out when their polytheism declined in the face of big imperial government.

Reality says

Notice, you avoided the critically important "Anthropogenic" part.

People are so funny. Like it's hard to find where the CO2 comes from.

Heraclitusstudent says

Reality says

Notice, you avoided the critically important "Anthropogenic" part.

People are so funny. Like it's hard to find where the CO2 comes from.

The vast majority of CO2 comes from non-human sources. The biggest being probably the dynamic release and absorption at the ocean's surfaces.

Reality says

I certainly hope no one believes the Bible today for that reason.

When the Christian Bible fails to do the job, the vast majority of the world's population will be converted to the Koran or something else.

Yep, I'm sure the folks at Fox News will figure out something.

Reality says

People are so funny. Like it's hard to find where the CO2 comes from.

The vast majority of CO2 comes from non-human sources. The biggest being probably the dynamic release and absorption at the ocean's surfaces.

...which explains the spike since the 50's?
I mean, we know how much coal, oil and gas is burnt every year, right?

Heraclitusstudent says

Reality says

I certainly hope no one believes the Bible today for that reason.

When the Christian Bible fails to do the job, the vast majority of the world's population will be converted to the Koran or something else.

Yep, I'm sure the folks at Fox News will figure out something.

The real reason is human behavior and statistical expectations from one's own behavior. If one's own "staying good" can not be expected to be rewarded and "doing bad" can not be expected to be punished, a significant minority but large enough proportion of people will ill behave to bring down the society. Law enforcement in human history, even now, can only catch a tiny fraction of ill behaving individuals. Without a religion promising the reward and punishment in afterlife, and give people a sense to police oneself and feel good about it, human societies fall apart rather quickly. The cost of bureaucrats catching every criminal and potential criminal is just too high to be ever feasible.

Heraclitusstudent says

The vast majority of CO2 comes from non-human sources. The biggest being probably the dynamic release and absorption at the ocean's surfaces.

...which explains the spike since the 50's?

I mean, we know how much coal, oil and gas is burnt every year, right?

Rising temperature causes oceanic dissolved CO2 to be released into the atmosphere. The AGW crowd has the causality between temperature and CO2 backwards.

bgamall4 says

No, actually that was part of the falling away period. Once the early church passed on, there was a falling away and fusion of church and state is a false religion.

Christianity replacing the old Roman religion managed to extend the life span of East Roman Empire by about a thousand years! The Western wastelands were simply ungovernable before the Germanic tribes were converted to Christianity. After the conversion, the various "Christendoms" came into being in Western Europe. I'm not advocating the fusion of state and religion per se (as that would create too much concentration of power, corrupting both). However, religion does provide the cognitive background in a society for converting one-time prisoner's delima into repeating games, where one can afford to be less prone to double-cross each other at the first chance.

Reality says

The AGW crowd has the causality between temperature and CO2 backwards.

And, let me guess, it's just a huge coincidence that temperatures happen to rise exactly at the point in history where we burn record amounts of coal, gas and oil?

And really we can't calculate how much we KNOW we DO release (i.e. how much we burn), and compare it to how much CO2 presence we MEASURE?

Reality says

Without a religion promising the reward and punishment in afterlife, and give people a sense to police oneself and feel good about it, human societies fall apart rather quickly.

I'm speechless.
You do know there are entire societies on this planet who have been around for very long and don't have a notion of punishment in afterlife. How about Japan Shintoism?

Reality says

The Western wastelands were simply ungovernable before the Germanic tribes were converted to Christianity.

You do know that Clovis converted to Christianity in 496 and what followed was 1000yrs of dark ages, right?

Reality says

Notice, you avoided the critically important "Anthropogenic" part.

That "anyone who denies . . . is an idiot" attitude is precisely what the cartoon illustrates

Actually, I did not.

Anyone who looks at the above graph and thinks humans aren't responsible is the scientific equivalent of a holocaust denier and deserves as much respect.

Those who don't acknowledge the reality and gravity of man-made climate change don't get a vote in the policies passed to mitigate and deal with climate change.

Climate change isn't man-made, my ass.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/gIUN5ziSfNc

Society may have put up with the lying about climate change back in the 1980s, but such lies are no longer tolerable. Too many lives are at stake. Anyone who bullshits about climate change deserves ridicule. Willful ignorance is despicable.

Heraclitusstudent says

Reality says

The AGW crowd has the causality between temperature and CO2 backwards.

And, let me guess, it's just a huge coincidence that temperatures happen to rise exactly at the point in history where we burn record amounts of coal, gas and oil?

Temperature rose and fall both before and after the 1950's. Don't tell me the burning of coal, gas and oil has been declining since 1998, from which time to now the global temperature has been declining.

And really we can't calculate how much we KNOW we DO release (i.e. how much we burn), and compare it to how much CO2 presence we MEASURE?

Two problems with your focus here:

1. The dynamic balance in oceanic surface absorption and release is carried out at far greater CO2 volume than human emission.

2. The minute percentage of CO2 in atmosphere doesn't have significant effect on temperature.

Reality says

The vast majority of CO2 comes from non-human sources. The biggest being probably the dynamic release and absorption at the ocean's surfaces.

Utter bullshit. Irrational adherence to myths, whether religious or political, is dangerous and can cost millions, even billions, of lives. This is exactly why society must no longer tolerate lies, whether about climate change or the afterlife.

Wise decision making requires accurate knowledge and truthful reporting of reality. The consequences, as this thread has shown, are literally life and death.