patrick.net

This is an interesting read that shatters the myth that Sweden's brand of socialism is a paradigm.

indigenous says

This is an interesting read that shatters the myth that Sweden's brand of socialism is a paradigm.

This is one mans opinion, published on the web site of an institute dedicated to "Advancing Austrian Economics".

New Renter says

This is one mans opinion, published on the web site of an institute dedicated to "Advancing Austrian Economics".

Did you read it?

indigenous says

Sweden says go back.

Did you read it? Go back to what? Obamacare makes everyone buy insurance and subsidizes some of them. All obmacare does is send a bunch of tax dollars to the health insurance companies. Nothing else changed. You do understand that don't you?

All the public health systems around the world except Canada, have private insurance. It's not like Sweden is any different than anywhere else.

Bopbob2356 says

All the public health systems around the world except Canada, have private insurance. It's not like Sweden is any different than anywhere else

Sweden is going back to the private market for healh insurance.

Good it should all work together.There should be Social nets for those who need it, and a free market for those who can afford and not want to burden the social net. Healthcare prices should be if not regulated, watched and monitored under the same scrutiny that the price of any resource is monitored during an emergency. After all health issues are an emergency. A gas station just can't up the price of Gas after a hurricane, just because they are the only one around for miles with gas, and people need it most.

Hospitals should justify their prices, and nothing should be hidden, and all and any charges should be subject to rigorous scrutiny if challenged. Fraudulent changes should be processed more savagely than Martha Stewart got for talking to a friend about investing.

Hospitals should set the prices and not the Insurance companies, and a Federal review board, under the close watch of national and international patient, consumer, and human rights advocacy groups, should review the justification of such charges.

Then this way, I would just go to the Doctor and have most routine visits a man of 45 would expect and just pay a few hundred dollars out of my own pocket and be good for another 6 months to a year. Still be way ahead of the game of this Socialized Insurance scam and racket.

That's the problem with modern Politics, every time some smart ass comes up with a solution for one segment of Society, everyone has to come along for a ride.

We should have every thing in this country. Government recognition of same sex family unions(not marriages), safety nets for the poor, business development opportunity for budding entrepreneurial. Those who have already made billions, have no business sucking up to the Government for favors and handouts.
Regulation on goods and services that are vital to the health and minimum standards of quality of life in a 21st century modern Country. Free unabated markets of other goods, where the better mouse trap wins, not the better patent, and trial lawyers. That can spin any design to be an infringement on IP laws.

Especially in a digital age, of software designed to accomplish a few single patterns, it's only natural that there would be design over lap. If authors were never allowed to repeat the same word authors already wrote, just rearranged, the last book would have been written years ago.

We should have Everything, most ideas are probably excellent ideas for the constituents and demographics of districts that they originate in. The problem is, no GOP or Democrat legislator can seem to craft one single piece of legislation that doesn't negative impact more people than it positively impacts.

Why does everyone have to come along for a ride, every time someone in Washington opens their mouth? We truly have became that country that is of the lowest common denominator for the lowest common denominator.

indigenous says

Bopbob2356 says

All the public health systems around the world except Canada, have private insurance. It's not like Sweden is any different than anywhere else

Sweden is going back to the private market for healh insurance.

No they're not, I knew you didn't read past the title.

bob2356 says

No they're not, I knew you didn't read past the title.

WTF are you talking about?

indigenous says

bob2356 says

No they're not, I knew you didn't read past the title.

WTF are you talking about?

Read the quoted article, the link is there.

Only 1 in 10 Swedes have private insurance and 80% of those are provided by employers to get employees back to work as quickly as possible. So 2% of people actually buy private insurance. That's not an overwhelming number. It certainly doesn't qualify as en masse. Gee, I wonder why this didn't get into the ariticle.

Private insurance has been available in Sweden since NIH was instituted in 1955. Long waiting lists have come and gone in Sweden several times as the system has changed. You can't go "back" to something that always existed. Gee I wonder why the history of long waiting lists didn't make it into the article? See a pattern here?

So what would America go "back' to? People buying health insurance? That's what they do now. You can't go "back" if you are just doing the same thing

indigenous says

New Renter says

This is one mans opinion, published on the web site of an institute dedicated to "Advancing Austrian Economics".

Did you read it?

Yes I did. And my comment stands.

bob2356 says

Only 1 in 10 Swedes have private insurance and 80% of those are provided by employers to get employees back to work as quickly as possible. So 2% of people actually buy private insurance. That's not an overwhelming number. It certainly doesn't qualify as en masse. Gee, I wonder why this didn't get into the ariticle.

What it did say is that 500k (which is 5%) Swedes had private insurance. Who cares how or why.

bob2356 says

Private insurance has been available in Sweden since NIH was instituted in 1955. Long waiting lists have come and gone in Sweden several times as the system has changed. You can't go "back" to something that always existed. Gee I wonder why the history of long waiting lists didn't make it into the article? See a pattern here?

What I saw were quotes that stated in the Local article:

"The Swedish score for technically excellent healthcare services is, as ever, dragged down by the seemingly never-ending story of access/waiting time problems," the reported noted, underlining that the national efforts to guarantee patient care had not helped to cut the delays significantly

As in the NYT article, all problems including the wait times are generally blamed on a “lack” of funds. As Jonsson and Banta note, “limited resources do result in waiting lists and other restrictions.” In the media and political discourse, this is discussed as “cutbacks,” but yet the funds seem to never be enough.

Which of course is caused by:

This is symptomatic for any public system — the allocated funds are never (and can never be) sufficient. There is simply too much waste due to lack of incentives and market prices.

New Renter says

indigenous says

This is an interesting read that shatters the myth that Sweden's brand of socialism is a paradigm.

This is one mans opinion, published on the web site of an institute dedicated to "Advancing Austrian Economics".

Yes along with the reality of what the Swedes thought. Which at the end of the day is all that counts with any customer?

indigenous says

What it did say is that 500k (which is 5%) Swedes had private insurance. Who cares how or why.

indigenous says

Sweden says go back.

A whole whopping 5%? That certainly represents "sweden" saying go back. Not. At least 5% of America is morman. Does that mean "america" says go mormon?

indigenous says

This is symptomatic for any public system — the allocated funds are never (and can never be) sufficient. There is simply too much waste due to lack of incentives and market prices.

So you are saying that in the US market system there are sufficient funds and no one is ever denied care? That's really funny, who would have believed you actually had a sense of humor. Live overseas sometime and learn how horrified people in other countries are at the US system.

indigenous says

New Renter says

indigenous says

This is an interesting read that shatters the myth that Sweden's brand of socialism is a paradigm.

This is one mans opinion, published on the web site of an institute dedicated to "Advancing Austrian Economics".

Yes along with the reality of what the Swedes thought. Which at the end of the day is all that counts with any customer?

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Some clarification please?

bob2356 says

indigenous says

Sweden says go back.

A whole whopping 5%? That certainly represents "sweden" saying go back. Not. At least 5% of America is morman. Does that mean "america" says go mormon?

500,000 in a country of 9.5 million is substantial.

bob2356 says

indigenous says

This is symptomatic for any public system — the allocated funds are never (and can never be) sufficient. There is simply too much waste due to lack of incentives and market prices.

So you are saying that in the US market system there are sufficient funds and no one is ever denied care? That's really funny, who would have believed you actually had a sense of humor. Live overseas sometime and learn how horrified people in other countries are at the US system.

Funny I hear that about Canada and especially the UK.

The problem is that when the price is dropped to very little the demand skyrockets. No matter what there will be rationing like the article was stating. Now imagine a heterogeneous country that is 33 times bigger.

You lefties hold up Sweden as the paradigm. That paradigm in the US will be a disaster. Just that 5% would be 15 million and that is just the start.

New Renter says

Yes along with the reality of what the Swedes thought. Which at the end of the day is all that counts with any customer?

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Some clarification please?

The customers the Swedish people are dissatisfied with their insurance. This is because of the wait times. When something is free the demand will swamp whatever is setup.

indigenous says

500,000 in a country of 9.5 million is substantial.

No 5% is not substantial by any reasonable persons definition.

indigenous says

The problem is that when the price is dropped to very little the demand skyrockets. No matter what there will be rationing like the article was stating. Now imagine a heterogeneous country that is 33 times bigger.

Demand skyrockets? Really? Skyrockets? That's like 5% being substantial, right? So let me get this straight. People in Sweden are flocking to the doctors, taking time off work, driving over, waiting in long lines just because they can, not because they are actually sick? Plus paying the copay for each visit (you were aware that public health systems have a copay weren't you? My copay was higher in France, NZ and Australia than it is in the US). How about some numbers on that?

Before you embarrass yourself further or make you anal orifice more sore from pulling things out of it I'll tell you. The US has the second highest number of doctor visits per person after Japan. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_con_wit_doc-health-consultation-with-doctors

The article said that there were long wait times, not rationing. There are 43 countries that use public health care. Only a couple have problems with wait times. Why aren't the rest "rationing" because demand has "skyrocketed"?

People are going to go to a doctor because they are sick. Unless there isn't a doctor (think Africa) or they simply can't pay for it (think American uninsured and Africa). Market forces have nothing to do with it.

bob2356 says

indigenous says

500,000 in a country of 9.5 million is substantial.

No 5% is not substantial by any reasonable persons definition

Yes, that would be 15 million in the US, 15 million is quite a few to anyone who is rational.

bob2356 says

People in Sweden are flocking to the doctors, taking time off work, driving over, waiting in long lines just because they can, not because they are actually sick?

According to the author, a resident, there were long waits.

bob2356 says

The article said that there were long wait times, not rationing

Long waits are rationing, if it takes 6 mo to get an MRI in Canada isn't that rationing? I hear it is worse in the UK, which is odd because the British health care system is the second largest organization in the world, second only to the red Chinese army.

bob2356 says

The US has the second highest number of doctor visits per person after Japan.

This where the free ER visits come in, where an indigent goes to the ER for a cold. This is because the hospital cannot refuse them.

indigenous says

The customers the Swedish people are dissatisfied with their insurance. This is because of the wait times. When something is free the demand will swamp whatever is setup.

Well THAT explains why I've been wheezing and so light headed! Air is free so the demand must have used it all up!

Mystery solved - now I can cancel my trip to Sweden for my free doctor's appointment

Surprise, surprise...this article appears on an Austrian Economics website. Are you expecting them to praise ANYTHING a government does, no matter where?

Let's just do what Taiwan did with their model. Copied Medicare and made it for everyone. Game over.

indigenous says

Yes, that would be 15 million in the US, 15 million is quite a few to anyone who is rational.

5% is 5% no matter 5% of what. did you take math in school at all?

indigenous says

bob2356 says

People in Sweden are flocking to the doctors, taking time off work, driving over, waiting in long lines just because they can, not because they are actually sick?

According to the author, a resident, there were long waits

So people are going to the doctor and waiting a long time just because they can, not because they are sick? What about copays? Why would the number of people going to the doctor in Sweden "skyrocket" if they are actually paying more at their visit than the average person in the US. When did this "skyrocket" happen anyway? The Swedish system has been around since 1955. People just figured out it was "free" the last 5 years and all rush off to their doctor? Do your read what you write at all?

indigenous says

This where the free ER visits come in, where an indigent goes to the ER for a cold. This is because the hospital cannot refuse them

You will provide some type of documentation on what percentage of the total number of doctor visits are non emergency visits to the ER I assume? Right, some day. Isn't your ass sore enough already today from pulling things out of it?indigenous says

I hear it is worse in the UK, which is odd because the British health care system is the second largest organization in the world, second only to the red Chinese army.

The budget for the nhs is 156 billlion USD. Do you really want to hold those cards? Hint the us military budget is 682 billion. Do you ever actually look up any facts or is everything in your life fall into the catogory of it has to be true because I want it to be true?

bob2356 says

ndigenous says

Yes, that would be 15 million in the US, 15 million is quite a few to anyone who is rational.

5% is 5% no matter 5% of what. did you take math in school at all?

And 15 million is 15 million

bob2356 says

So people are going to the doctor and waiting a long time just because they can, not because they are sick? What about copays? Why would the number of people going to the doctor in Sweden "skyrocket" if they are actually paying more at their visit than the average person in the US. When did this "skyrocket" happen anyway? The Swedish system has been around since 1955. People just figured out it was "free" the last 5 years and all rush off to their doctor? Do your read what you write at all?

Again the article was written by an indigenous (they are usually quite bright)

bob2356 says

The budget for the nhs is 156 billlion USD. Do you really want to hold those cards? Hint the us military budget is 682 billion. Do you ever actually look up any facts or is everything in your life fall into the catogory of it has to be true because I want it to be true?

Hard to imagination as I have read that it is the second largest organization in the world.

anonymous says

"Millions of workers will shift to private exchanges, fund manager says" - "A sizable chunk of America’s work force — up to 50 million people — may find themselves being shifted to private health exchanges over the next few years as companies start to see how much they can save by making the move."

yup that is not hard to see or that the immortal 20 somethings buying insurance.

indigenous says

Again the article was written by an indigenous (they are usually quite bright)

So you are saying being indigenous means that you can't have a big political agenda that slants the facts? How do you explain fox news or NPR then?

indigenous says

Hard to imagination as I have read that it is the second largest organization in the world.

The numbers are public record. The top 30 companies on the Dow all have bigger budgets than the nhs. The top 5 departments in the US government have bigger budgets. That's just what I found in the US in 30 seconds on google.

Did it ever occur to you to actually look these kind of things up or do you just always accept whatever you read on some far right wing blog somewhere? It's true because I believe it must be true.

anonymous says

"Millions of workers will shift to private exchanges, fund manager says" - "A sizable chunk of America’s work force — up to 50 million people — may find themselves being shifted to private health exchanges over the next few years as companies start to see how much they can save by making the move."

That's obamacare. Of the corporate profits, by the corporate profits, for the corporate profits. The amount of money that will be made on this law is just stunning.