patrick.net

zzyzzx says

Like what I said above, when you can't handle the truth, you deny the results. Obama did the same thing when the CBO also claimed job losses. Of course now you will claim that the Congressional Budget Office is a conservative news source.

I'm not the one taking the words of a lobby and claiming that they are the truth. As such, there isn't any truth to the assertions you've made and hence I feel fairly confident in my opinions here.

edvard2 says

I'm not the one taking the words of a lobby and claiming that they are the truth. As such, there isn't any truth to the assertions you've made and hence I feel fairly confident in my opinions here.

I am not taking the words of Obama, and claiming that they are the truth, like you are.

Why should I believe a "left-leading Washington-based Center for Economic and Policy Research"??? They are just another mouthpiece for Obama.

zzyzzx says

Here is a third one, done in Maryland:

"A study commissioned by a pro-business group in Maryland warns that raising the state’s minimum wage could lead to thousands of job losses, increase the price of consumer goods and weaken the state’s competitive position."

So yup- same thing. Its a pro-business group. No need to read furtherzzyzzx says

I am not taking the words of Obama, and claiming that they are the truth, like you are.

This is getting to be hilarious. Guess when you can't win a debate, time to get goin' with comments like that?

But you know what? Let's take this a step further. So correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that minimum wages should not be raised, right? Ok, well if we're going to go with that logic, then it would be exactly no different than saying that NOBODY else should have their wages raised... ever. I can only assume that you would wholeheartedly agree with that logic since it matches the logic being applied to not raising minimum wages. As such, with inflation in fuel, food, consumer goods and housing prices, if nobody gets anymore wage increases or better yet- wages stay the same for years and years on end then that sure makes a whole hell of a lot of sense, don't it? Surely you must agree. If you don't then reckon you're gonna' have to change your stance on minimum wages too because its the same damned thing.

edvard2 says

So correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that minimum wages should not be raised, right?

I am saying that if we had an immigration ban, and throw out illegals, and had import duties, there would be so many jobs in the US that wages would go up more than any minimum wage hike would provide.

Lookup something called "supply and demand".

zzyzzx says

edvard2 says

So what is your suggestion? That we continuously and forever keep those wages low?

Ban on immigration. Throw out illegal aliens. Import duties. Then the free market will raise domestic wages, most likely by quite a bit.

None of that shit will work if outsourcing is still allowed.

zzyzzx says

Stephen S. Fuller, an economist at George Mason University

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercatus_Center

"After the Koch family provided more than thirty million dollars to George Mason University, the Center moved to George Mason in the mid-1980s before assuming its current name in 1999."

zzyzzx says

I am saying that if we had an immigration ban, and throw out illegals, and had import duties, there would be so many jobs in the US that wages would go up more than any minimum wage hike would provide.

I asked a specific question. I asked if you agreed or disagreed with raising minimum wages. Its a simple yes or no question. Furthermore I extrapolated the same scenario for the general economy as well in which you also have the opportunity to answer.

Ahh, a race to the bottom.. That's A LOT of people that won't buy the products of the companies they are being fired from or it's competitors.

Firing employees to cut costs is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's all interconnected... People on unemployment or not in the workforce... can't spend money.

edvard2 says

I asked a specific question. I asked if you agreed or disagreed with raising minimum wages. Its a simple yes or no question. Furthermore I extrapolated the same scenario for the general economy as well in which you also have the opportunity to answer.

I don't think we need a national minimum wage. At the individual state level, possibly so. We need import duties and an immigration ban to stimulate demand for American workers instead. I'd say that very few, if any, other countries allow almost everything to be imported, while at the same time hire foreigners while their own people sit unemployed.

Dan8267 says

Of course some jobs will be cut if the minimum wage is raised, just like some jobs were lost when slavery was banned. However, those jobs, as I said, should be lost because they are evidently less productive than the effort they require. That's how a free market ensures that resources aren't wasted.

I suspect that some service level jobs will be replaced with robots.

ZZYZZX,

How is firing people gonna help the economy? Please explain how more unemployed... and less government assistance will result in more money spent on products, goods and services?

Seems these companies are very short-sighted... You should be demonizing the companies that are doing layoffs instead of cutting CEO pay.

zzyzzx says

I was able to save a bunch of money when I was working for the minimum wage. It was $3.35/hr then. I lived at home. That's why. Did it through college and when I graduated in 1988, I owned a new car that I paid for and had $30K in the bank. Anyone can do this.

When you graduated college, you had a new car and 30K in the bank, all, we are to believe, from working a 3.35/hr part time job. Even if it was full time, that's not possible without other things you aren't telling us.

Either there's a lot that you aren't telling us, or you're lying.

My observation is that republicans (notice I don't say "conservatives" because I'm conservative) generally speaking, are liars. Above all, they are good at lying to themselves, and believing those lies.

A lot of people don't have parents that pay for all their living expenses and other college expenses, and basically take care of them all through college.

"anyone can do this".

Right...

humanity says

When you graduated college, you had a new car and 30K in the bank, all, we are to believe, from working a 3.35/hr part time job. Even if it was full time, that's not possible without other things you aren't telling us.

I probably don't have my 1988 bank statements saved, to back this up, but it's true. I also owned some stock that I am not counting here. Just because people are too fucking lazy to work their way through college now, doesn't mean it wasn't possible at one time. Yes, it was way cheaper to go to college them, even in constant dollar terms.

zzyzzx says

I don't think we need a national minimum wage

very good. That's all you needed to say since the rest of your response was unrelated. Now for the second question I asked you. Should the same logic be applied to the other income levels in the US? If not, then why not?

edvard2 says

very good. That's all you needed to say since the rest of your response was unrelated. Now for the second question I asked you. Should the same logic be applied to the other income levels in the US? If not, then why not?

We don't need a national minimum wage when almost every state already has it's own minimum wage. That's something that liberals don't get, since they seem to like redundant laws. In so far as things being applied to other income levels, if immigration were banned, and illegals thrown out, and import duties raised, it should make all Americans richer, since the proverbial rising tides will raise all boats. Is that what you were asking?

edvard2 says

Switzerland, Norway, and the Netherlands along with a number of other countries all of whom share the same attributes:

Norway exports a lot of oil, so again, they have an export based economy which often leads to low unemployment levels.

zzyzzx says

We don't need a national minimum wage when almost every state already has it's own minimum wage.

Nope. try again. That's not the question I asked you. I asked if you think that the same should be true for all other income levels. Let me rephrase: Should wages be kept the same for all middle and upper level income Americans?

zzyzzx says

Norway exports a lot of oil, so again, they have an export based economy which often leads to low unemployment levels.

We export a lot of oil too. Nice try.

edvard2 says

We export a lot of oil too. Nice try.

We import way more oil than we export (if we export any oil). Nice try.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm
U.S. Imports by Country of Origin

zzyzzx says

I probably don't have my 1988 bank statements saved, to back this up, but it's true. I also owned some stock that I am not counting here.

If you worked FULL TIME making $3.35, for 50 weeks a year while in college, for four years, and if you were paid in cash, or otherwise had no payroll taxes taken out, or any other taxes. And if you spent ZERO of that, then you would have $26800.

Why do you assume it took me only 4 years to get my first degree? It took me longer than that. Why do you assume that, even working at a fast food place (which I was) I would only be making $3.35 the whole time. At times I made more, but still fast food wages. Yes, the minimum wage was $3.35 the whole time.

zzyzzx says

We import way more oil than we export (if we export any oil). Nice try.

Your oil comment had nothing to do with the situation of Norway's governance anyway, so my fault for going down that road anyway. But I digress.... answer the question I mentioned above.

edvard2 says

We seem to be in a problem-solving mood today. You want to fix things? Get rid of ALL lobby groups- both liberal and conservative, and get business OUT of government. Period. Do that and the decisions that need to be made won't be corrupted by outside influence and misguided lobby politics.

I agree with this part.

As a liberal, I can say, we don't need a minimum wage; what we need is a maximum tax of 20% that the employers can charge their employees. If we did that, those Walmart employees would be making $45,920 instead of $12,500, and we tax payers wouldn't have to make up the slack in the form of welfare and Social Security.

See this post for details.

That means that Walmart taxes its employees 78.2% of their wealth production. FUCK! Imagine if the federal government taxed the rich at 78.2%. And that's effective tax rate, not marginal.

If an executive is so fucking incompetent that he can't run a company off of a 20% employee tax, then he shouldn't be an executive. I'd love to be able to siphon 20% of the wealth production of a hundred thousand employees. Even if I could keep only 1%, that would make my income 1000 times more than the average American and me a million times richer.

The problem is that employers are just too damn greedy and overtax their employees. So, you see, we don't need a minimum wage, but a maximum limit on what employers can siphon (tax) from their employees.

zzyzzx says

Why do you assume it took me only 4 years to get my first degree?

MY bottom line:

Typical republican white male - born in to a good situation, with so many advantages and has so much given to him by parents and or others, but attributes all of his success to himself, and says...

"Anyone could do this."

Lets see - a few assumptions:

Started working in high school, age 14.
Federal law allows no more than 18 hours per week for under age 16, during the school year.

So (school year) 2 years of 39 weeks at 18 * 3.35, 3.35*18*39*2 = 4,703.
(Summers) 2 years of 13 weeks at 40 * 3.35, 3.35*40*13*2 = 3,484
Then 6 years (age 16 - 22) of 52 weeks at 40, 3.35*40*52*6 = 41,808.

Total net wages is $49,995. Assume no income tax in your state, SS and Medicare Tax of 7.65%, and no federal income tax though this is very unlikely as you would have been claimed as a dependent on your parents return at least prior to age 18.

After taxes, you had $46,170. So said you saved $30k, and lets assume the new car was 410k.

That leaves $6,170 to pay for college and have as spending cash, if you worked full time while going to school for 8 years and you never took a single week off or had an unpaid sick day.

Granted also assumes you also never worked overtime...

Sorry, but LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE!

sbh says

Well, according to the libertarians firing everyone will

They should just Go Galt already, like they've threatened ever since that goddamn book was written.

France has a minimum wage of 12.22 and an unemployment 10.9% Explain that.

Switzerland has no minimum wage, and a 4.1% unemployment rate. Explain that.

Texas has a lower minimum wage and way lower unemployment than California. Do I even have to provide a link for that?

And exactly what's so biased about the CBO? I didn't think you had any proof of that.

Actually the CBO has a LIBERAL bias and they still predict huge job losses:

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2014/02/19/CBO-Finds-Minimum-Wage-Research-Biased

Ironically, according to an appendix to the report, not only did CBO researchers look at the economic research, they also decided that it was biased and revised their estimates accordingly, in a way favorable to the White House’s position.

zzyzzx says

Texas has a lower minimum wage and way lower unemployment than California.

Texas also has the most people at minimum wage, tied with Mississippi. Most of Texas' "job creation" is from oil and from government jobs. Overall, Texas has a relatively speaking low-education/low-skill workforce and a lot of the jobs there are very low paying, as a result. Not exactly a model to follow...

sbh says

Texas workers who ask for raises are shot and sold as fertilizer.

Texas workers are more likely to get a raise than CA workers.

You lack any credible source to back up your claims, yet you assert them with religious certainty.

"38 Percent Of Employers Will Lay Off Workers If Minimum Wage Is Hiked"

vs

ain't that a bitch

Ah, I see this worthless post is still going. It reminds me of something. In fact, I distinctly recall asking ZZyZZX a question based on the basic fundamentals of this topic.

The question asked was if the general opinion is that if people working at minimum wage jobs shouldn't see an increase in the minimum wage then logically the same would be true for any other income level: If raising wages is deemed harmful for the economy and jobs then I can only assume the OP feels that nobody should recieve raises either... right?

I say that because if the OP doesn't agree then that means that the case for not raising minimum wages is thus null and void, hence end of the conversation. If we're going to talk about economic logic, then you can't cherry pick the data.

edvard2 says

The question asked was if the general opinion is that if people working at minimum wage jobs shouldn't see an increase in the minimum wage then logically the same would be true for any other income level: If raising wages is deemed harmful for the economy and jobs then I can only assume the OP feels that nobody should recieve raises either... right?

I already said that curtailing immigration and imposing import duties should cause everyone wages to increase. I happen to think it would be better if everybody got a raise, not just s small number of people.

edvard2 says

If raising wages is deemed harmful for the economy and jobs then I can only assume the OP feels that nobody should recieve raises either... right?

I believe the libertarian counter to your argument would be that nobody should be forced to give employees a raise. Only employees that are valuable and you want to keep from going somewhere else deserve a raise. While I agree with this theory for higher skill/income brackets, it is ridiculous at the bottom levels.

On paper the libertarian theory seems plausible. In the real, mucky world it is pure fantasy.

zzyzzx says

I already said that curtailing immigration and imposing import duties should cause everyone wages to increase. I happen to think it would be better if everybody got a raise, not just s small number of people.

And yet again you didn't really answer the question. Your one and only response to basically everything on this post has been to stop immigration and create import duties. Both of those ideas aren't based in economic reality and historically when tried in the past were huge failures. Let's delve into this further so we can move on from unrealistic solutions to ones that are at least remotely sound.

First:
The last time the US undertook a policy of creating import duties it basically threw the economy into a deeper depression. This policy was enacted shortly after the crash of 29' and the result was that every other country did the same, hence freezing global commerce. I suggest reading further about this. So that debunks part of your "solution"

Second:
The whole comment about immigration makes no sense. Your parents, my parents, and everyone else other than the native Americans who lived here before immigrated to the US. The whole country is one of immigrants. Again- I think you need to really study up on your history- but over the entire time period of the US, immigrants have played a vital role in the US economy. I mentioned previously before the countless immigrants from Europe and elsewhere who filled our factories during the 1800's-1900's. This economic reality is still true today, especially in the ag business.

So basically you're going to have to come up with other reasons for not raising the minimum wage beyond these two above since I've more or less proven them to be incorrect based on widely accepted and well known historical facts.

Lastly, a raise in the minimum wage would not affect a "Small amount of people"-as you said. As previously mentioned, the single largest employer in the US is the leading Big Box store.
rooemoore says

While I agree with this theory for higher skill/income brackets, it is ridiculous at the bottom levels.

The reason I mentioned this idea in the first place was to prove a point. Point being that raises are given all the time in the middle and upper classes and the outcome has not resulted in lost jobs or negative impacts to the economy, much the same as how doing so for the working class jobs at minimum wage wouldn't. The takeaway is that the suggestion that raises in minimum wage would hurt the economy are null and void basically because that doesn't occur in other wage brackets either.

But I do get your points as well.

rooemoore says

I believe the libertarian counter to your argument would be that nobody should be forced to give employees a raise.

Of course, employees demanding something, or voting to have it mandated, is bad. Employers banding together to demand more H1B visas is obviously good. Because AMERICA!