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Tech companies cartel conspiring to keep engineer wages low
2014 Mar 22, 5:41am 5,657 views 32 comments
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Heraclitusstudent
2014 Mar 22, 5:44am
The most amazing thing is that the "settlement" obtained from our wonderful government is that a few of the companies involved agreed to stop doing it.
curb their restricting hiring deals
this was hardly the reason to keep salaries low, it was to stop the out of control pouching of talent. headhunters made a huge killing in commissions $$$. it got way out of hand not only in Engineers, but sales, marketing and finance folks. back in the 80s the gentlemen s agreement was not hidden but well known to many in the workforce.
New Renter
2014 Mar 22, 6:53am
curb their restricting hiring deals
this was hardly the reason to keep salaries low, it was to stop the out of control pouching of talent. headhunters made a huge killing in commissions $$$. it got way out of hand not only in Engineers, but sales, marketing and finance folks. back in the 80s the gentlemen s agreement was not hidden but well known to many in the workforce.
Well that's how the free market is supposed to work isn't it?
Shaman
2014 Mar 22, 6:55am
Solution is simple, and already supported by existing law. Tech workers need to form a union and collectively bargain for fair wages, benefits, and eliminated H1B visa workers. TCEU, CPEU, something like that. Then the companies will have no choice but to deal fairly, or have workers withhold labor.
Solution is simple, and already supported by existing law. Tech workers need to form a union and collectively bargain for fair wages, benefits, and eliminated H1B visa workers. TCEU, CPEU, something like that. Then the companies will have no choice but to deal fairly, or have workers withhold labor.
just like Detroit ! yeap that worked out great!
Well that's how the free market is supposed to work isn't it?
Employers negotiate not to pouch each others talent...
yes.. thats free market also.
tatupu70
2014 Mar 22, 7:30am
Employers negotiate not to pouch each others talent...
yes.. thats free market also.
No--that's not the free market. That's collusion and very against free market.
New Renter
2014 Mar 22, 7:45am
Employers negotiate not to pouch each others talent...
yes.. thats free market also.
No--that's not the free market. That's collusion and very against free market.
That is correct. Its akin to price fixing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing
Solution is simple, and already supported by existing law. Tech workers need to form a union and collectively bargain for fair wages, benefits, and eliminated H1B visa workers. TCEU, CPEU, something like that. Then the companies will have no choice but to deal fairly, or have workers withhold labor.
just like Detroit ! yeap that worked out great!
Here is a big problem I see with tech worker unions. The UC student workers DID team up with the UAW to form a union:
Here are their current demands:
Do you see a problem here? I sure do!
OK, here's a hint - living wages and fair working conditions are at the bottom of the list superseded by "all gender" bathrooms.
Seriously people WTF?!
Employers negotiate not to pouch each others talent...
yes.. thats free market also.
No--that's not the free market. That's collusion and very against free market.
That is correct. Its akin to price fixing:
Nope ! not anything near price fixing... all they are saying is ...
i do my business ... you do yours... and I will not interfere...
Keeping salaries lower is far far better than having to run through
layoffs due to lower revenues during recessions....
I will take lower salaries any day... over mindless greedy engineers...
Here are their current demands:
Do you see a problem here? I sure do!
OK, here's a hint - living wages and fair working conditions are at the bottom of the list superseded by "all gender" bathrooms.
yep...
Shaman
2014 Mar 22, 9:13am
Did you expect college students to know what they want? Most of those idiots can't even choose a major!
I would hope tech workers would be smarter or at least more pragmatic, but to represent them we have Thomas wrong, so perhaps not. It's rather sad that a bunch of blue collar guys, most of whom have a shaky hold on basic math, are much better at creating a democratic organization to represent them than the college educated crowd!
Maybe you're not getting smarter in school, just more conditioned to be the perfect tools.
I never met so many smart stupid people than I did at college.
tatupu70
2014 Mar 22, 9:13am
Nope ! not anything near price fixing... all they are saying is ...
i do my business ... you do yours... and I will not interfere...
Keeping salaries lower is far far better than having to run through
layoffs due to lower revenues during recessions....
I will take lower salaries any day... over mindless greedy engineers...
Sure--because you're not an engineer! lol.
Thomas--this is ridiculous even for you. Of course it is collusion and price fixing. It is the very definition of price fixing. You have to understand this....
Here is a big problem I see with tech worker unions. The UC student workers DID team up with the UAW to form a union:
Oh Lord, college kids now days are bigger idiots than ever. These are the demands or ... ??? What? They won't come to class and will flunk the class? They won't enroll - which means someone else will take their spot? I mean, you gotta hold some cards and to me this looks like the students are holding a pair of 2's against a full house. Damn I hate stupidity.
New Renter
2014 Mar 22, 9:17am
Did you expect college students to know what they want? Most of those idiots can't even choose a major!
That may be true for first or second year undergraduates but these are graduate students.
Of course it is collusion and price fixing. It is the very definition of price fixing. You have to understand this....
Wait, wait, wait - you want to call it price fixing, okay, so what. All that has to happen is that the engineers refuse to take the employment at the price offered. I don't think anyone is holding a gun to their heads. You tell them I won't work for less than X dollars, when they offer less, you turn down the job. At some point there is a lot of work that needs to be done and no people to do it. Guess what? At that point the employers start offering more.
New Renter
2014 Mar 22, 9:20am
Oh Lord, college kids now days are bigger idiots than ever. These are the demands or ... ??? What? They won't come to class and will flunk the class? They won't enroll - which means someone else will take their spot? I mean, you gotta hold some cards and to me this looks like the students are holding a pair of 2's against a full house. Damn I hate stupidity.
NO they won't show up to teach. Colleges are critically dependent on the labor of graduate TA's. Without their labor most of the actual work of teaching won't happen.
What gets me is the UAW is allowing this crap to happen. They should be the ones to smack some sense into their members.
tatupu70
2014 Mar 22, 9:20am
All that has to happen is that the engineers refuse to take the employment at the price offered.
But they can't go to any of the other tech companies. The free market has been hijacked.
Shaman
2014 Mar 22, 9:23am
Did you expect college students to know what they want? Most of those idiots can't even choose a major!
That may be true for first or second year undergraduates but these are graduate students.
So you're saying they get worse as they continue their education? Ugh.
I especially like the ethnically and gender ambiguous character holding the sign. Bull dyke Filipino went dude? Who the hell knows? Their demands don't even make sense!
Holding up that travesty of a platform to "prove" my suggestion wouldn't work is like holding up a kindergartener's crayon drawing and attempting to prove that art is a waste of time.
But they can't go to any of the other tech companies. The free market has been hijacked.
So you go do something else. You flip burgers, you become a barista, you do something else. Eventually, they will HAVE to offer more money.
NO they won't show up to teach. Colleges are critically dependent on the labor of graduate TA's. Without their labor most of the actual work of teaching won't happen.
The sky is falling. Wow, so we'll actually make the professors teach? What an earth shaking idea. Granted, I went to college a long time ago, but in my day TA might run the lab. TA might be in the class room to help with questions. But teach the course? Uh, no, that was the professors job.
Sure--because you're not an engineer! lol.
I dont have to be...
There are plenty of examples in the past where Software was not programmed well which caused countless bugs and angry customers.
The cause ? Too many SW engineers job hoping for big pay. Therefore the programming became inconsistent and buggy.
Who pays for all this down time and lost productivity ?
The Customer who pays for the product.... therefore you get no sympathy from the user base. Got an issue ... here is a tissue.
Of course it is collusion and price fixing. It is the very definition of price fixing. You have to understand this....
Wait, wait, wait - you want to call it price fixing, okay, so what. All that has to happen is that the engineers refuse to take the employment at the price offered. I don't think anyone is holding a gun to their heads. You tell them I won't work for less than X dollars, when they offer less, you turn down the job. At some point there is a lot of work that needs to be done and no people to do it. Guess what? At that point the employers start offering more.
If the free market actually functioned, you'd be right, but when things like this happen, these supposedly self-made 'makers' who employ these engineers run to the government and beg for H1-B visas to bring in engineers from all corners of the globe.
If the free market actually functioned, you'd be right, but when things like this happen, these supposedly self-made 'makers' who employ these engineers run to the government and beg for H1-B visas to bring in engineers from all corners of the globe.
Hmmm, sounds like a good reason to not be a software engineer. Time to find another line of work.
tatupu70
2014 Mar 22, 11:20am
So you go do something else. You flip burgers, you become a barista, you do something else. Eventually, they will HAVE to offer more money.
Maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't matter. It's still collusion.
tatupu70
2014 Mar 22, 11:22am
I dont have to be...
There are plenty of examples in the past where Software was not programmed well which caused countless bugs and angry customers.
The cause ? Too many SW engineers job hoping for big pay. Therefore the programming became inconsistent and buggy.
Who pays for all this down time and lost productivity ?
The Customer who pays for the product.... therefore you get no sympathy from the user base. Got an issue ... here is a tissue.
Well done Thomas. You've once again replied with a post that is both completely off topic and thoroughly nonsensical.
New Renter
2014 Mar 22, 11:43am
Did you expect college students to know what they want? Most of those idiots can't even choose a major!
That may be true for first or second year undergraduates but these are graduate students.
So you're saying they get worse as they continue their education? Ugh.
I especially like the ethnically and gender ambiguous character holding the sign. Bull dyke Filipino went dude? Who the hell knows? Their demands don't even make sense!
Holding up that travesty of a platform to "prove" my suggestion wouldn't work is like holding up a kindergartener's crayon drawing and attempting to prove that art is a waste of time.
@ Quigley
I am not saying unionization will not work! My point is that here is an example of technicians who have a union - the UAW for christsakes - but can't get their heads out of their collective asses.
In each model there are boundary conditions - examples to emulate and examples to avoid. This is simply an example of the latter.
What I find disturbing is not so much the students are so asinine in their demands (they are enveloped in the bubble of academic idealism) but that the UAW goes along with it, so much so that they put that ridiculous cartoon on their website.
What that cartoon says to me - a sympathetic ear no less - is that the students employees care less about making a a living wage than their desire to piss next to an undocumented she/he.
Tenpoundbass
2014 Mar 22, 1:12pm
The trend for the next 5 to 10 years will be companies hiring outside "Vendors" not contractors who came through third party headhunters.
You'll be direct hires, you'll get paid on 30 day cycles, you'll be paid by deliverable based not hourly wage, or salaried. The company will have a project they want done and will have a 20-50K budget. They know that project would take over two years, with a staff of 20 people working against each other to make each other look good, and the other person who championed the winning ideas bad. An out side resource can crank these out in 2 months, with out a hitch. They are responsible for the full solution from the data to the code.
So unless your dream is to be on the team that writes the next Google's next hottest feature, I wouldn't worry to much about what companies are claiming their hiring practices are. As while the HR is blogging one thing, the Business units in these companies are reaching to the very same people, that the HR People are blogging that they'll never hire.
I'm already seeing this, and have work backed up for the next foreseeable 2 1/2 years.
I dont have to be...
There are plenty of examples in the past where Software was not programmed well which caused countless bugs and angry customers.
The cause ? Too many SW engineers job hoping for big pay. Therefore the programming became inconsistent and buggy.
Who pays for all this down time and lost productivity ?
The Customer who pays for the product.... therefore you get no sympathy from the user base. Got an issue ... here is a tissue.
Well done Thomas. You've once again replied with a post that is both completely off topic and thoroughly nonsensical.
not off topic.. it is the reason today as it was some 20-30 years ago the practice exists. its not something thats new at all.. nor has it stopped competition over the past 30 years.
It's still collusion.
a 'gentlemen agreement' not to pouch competitors employees considered collusion ?
tatupu70
2014 Mar 22, 10:37pm
a 'gentlemen agreement' not to pouch competitors employees considered collusion ?
Obviously. It is a textbook example.
http://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-fixing-cartel-involved-dozens-more-companies-over-one-million-employees/
"Back in January, I wrote about “The Techtopus” — an illegal agreement between seven tech giants, including Apple, Google, and Intel, to suppress wages for tens of thousands of tech employees. The agreement prompted a Department of Justice investigation, resulting in a settlement in which the companies agreed to curb their restricting hiring deals. The same companies were then hit with a civil suit by employees affected by the agreements.
This week, as the final summary judgement for the resulting class action suit looms, and several of the companies mentioned (Intuit, Pixar and Lucasfilm) scramble to settle out of court, Pando has obtained court documents (embedded below) which show shocking evidence of a much larger conspiracy, reaching far beyond Silicon Valley."