patrick.net

Anyone who doesn't have an ID is not a functional citizen.

However, I agree absentee ballots can be abused. I never understood this concept but it should be abolished except for military of course.

The line must and will be drawn at NATO borders, wherever they lie.
The big question is: Will Putin test this line via Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania.
Not that he has much to gain, except probing the limits of a weak America.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

To say all wars in this day and age are dumb, does not equate.

True, and no one has ever said that.

However, as you pointed out, a war with Russia over Crimea would be stupid.

Yes, Most corporations are vulnerable to product boycotts.

Dan8267 says

Although corporations have far more sway over government than the common man, when it comes to war the opinion of a hundred million Americans, dumb as they may be, has an impact.

clambo says

Anyone who doesn't have an ID is not a functional citizen.

The solution to that problem is not to violate people's most basic civil rights, but rather to ensure that everyone has a legal ID and to pay the costs with taxes on the rich.

Ending poverty enriches us all in the long run.

corntrollio says

I don't -- it just means they aren't purging voter rolls when people move.

The actual amount of voter fraud prevented by these voter ID acts is almost non-existent, as has been shown numerous times. It's solely about voter suppression/voter intimidation, and the people who want these laws have admitted it as such.

Since the only way a vote can be fair and true is to actually be able to verify that who is voting is a registered voter.

In Mexico they have far more stringent voter id cards required.

Eric Holder has decided that the voter roles cannot be purged for whatever bullshit reason he pulls out of his ass. This happened in Fla. and Ohio, not a coincidence that these are crucial swing states.

There was an incident in Minnesota where they kept having recounts, and finding ballots in the backs of cars, until the vote came out in Franken's favor.

There was another incident where the governor of Washington kept having recounts until she won because the SOS found 162 votes that came from one address at a mental institution. Which swung the election for her.

Dan8267 says

I have to question the so-called facts on a political site. How many invalid, in-person votes have been cast? Practically none. How many invalid, absentee ballets been cast? Orders of magnitudes more than in-person, yet still small.

That is tautology you can't just keep repeating it until it somehow comes true.

Dan8267 says

How many legal votes would be prevented by voter ID laws? Over a million. What scumbag believes that preventing a handful of illegal votes justifies preventing a million legal votes? Which has a greater impact on elections.

In order to have a fair and just election the voter's ID has got to be checked, period.

Dan8267 says

People who propose these voter ID laws are lying scumbags who do not want elections to be ran fairly and accurately. That is the bottom line.

This is what I mean by projecting.

indigenous says

There was another incident where the governor of Washington kept having recounts until she won because the SOS found 162 votes that came from one address at a mental institution. Which swung the election for her.

I call bullshit. You made the mental institution thing up. There were 162 ballots found on a mail tray that hadn't been previously counted:
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2002122510_ballotmystery17m.html

These 162 were in King County, but there were also several trays of ballots found in at least 4 other counties. Washington is odd in that absentee ballots must only be *postmarked* by election day, not received.

There were two recounts -- the automatic recount by the state of Washington because the initial result was so close, and then a hand manual recount paid for by the Democratic party, as is their right under Washington election law. The hand recount meant that counted ballots were scrutinized to make sure they were valid and that disqualified ones were scrutinized to make sure they were invalid. It turns out that many absentee ballots including a member of the King County Council's were wrongfully disqualified.

This election for Governor Gregoire was greatly vetted through courts in conservative counties in Washington, and the Republican challenges were still rejected. Rossi's people even complained about a few felons who had voted improperly, and it turned out that all or most of those felons lived in counties that he won and were more likely to have voted for him. And in fact, 4 felons' votes were removed from Rossi's count specifically because they were ineligible to vote -- I believe only 1 other vote was specifically excluded because it was illegal, and it wasn't for Gregoire -- it was for the 3rd party candidate.

indigenous says

There was an incident in Minnesota where they kept having recounts, and finding ballots in the backs of cars, until the vote came out in Franken's favor.

No idea where you're getting this "backs of cars" thing. The Franken/Coleman election was challenged automatically with a hand recount because it was so close (just the one). When you do a hand recount, as in the case of Washington, you carefully scrutinize ballots to make sure that counted ones were valid and to make sure that disqualified ones were rightfully disqualified. Both Franken and Coleman made several challenges, and in the end Franken was up by a little over 300 votes, after the numerous court challenges by Coleman (many of which were likely to prevent the Democrats from having 60 votes in the Senate, rather than to actually make a bona fide challenge).

I'd also add that the Ramsey County authorities found 28 instances of voter fraud and in Hennepin County, they found 6. This is still far less than the margin, and I don't know whom these people voted for.

indigenous says

Dan8267 says

I have to question the so-called facts on a political site. How many invalid, in-person votes have been cast? Practically none. How many invalid, absentee ballets been cast? Orders of magnitudes more than in-person, yet still small.

That is tautology you can't just keep repeating it until it somehow comes true.

1. A tautology is a statement that is true by self-reference. For example, Too much of anything is bad.

2. Therefore, questions cannot be tautologies.

3. And tautologies are always true regardless of whether or not they are even stated once.

What color is the sky in your world?

indigenous says

Dan8267 says

How many legal votes would be prevented by voter ID laws? Over a million. What scumbag believes that preventing a handful of illegal votes justifies preventing a million legal votes? Which has a greater impact on elections.

In order to have a fair and just election the voter's ID has got to be checked, period.

In order to be fair, Constitutional, and legal, no person must be denied the right to vote even without such an ID. The imaginary in-person voter fraud you are pretending to prevent, could easily be prevented by verifying the person's identity on spot using fingerprinting to ensure no fraud and immediately creating a voter ID and giving it to the person for free.

Put simply, even the requirement of a voter ID should not in any way, shape, or form prevent a person without one from voting. Whatever process is required for the voter ID to be required can be done onsite at the voting both. Even if a delay is required, the vote can be cast and conditionally counted; the vote would be removed only if the state proves it was an illegal vote.

Of course, bigots like you who are trying to rig elections would never accept the above process because it would prevent you from rigging elections.

Again, you're just trying to keep black people from voting.

But the legal dispute should not distract anyone from recognizing the underlying purpose of laws like these and their close relative, voter ID laws. They are intended to keep eligible voters from the polls.

Republican lawmakers who work to impose higher bars to voting — either through proof-of-citizenship or voter ID laws — are well aware that many of those otherwise-eligible voters who struggle to come up with the required documents, which include a birth certificate, passport or driver’s license, are more likely to vote Democratic. Sometimes they even say it out loud, as Mike Turzai, the majority leader in the Pennsylvania statehouse, did in 2012 when he bragged that the state’s voter ID law was going to “allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania.”

In recent months, it seemed that judges were beginning to see through the pretense of such laws, whose proponents insist they are necessary to protect “election integrity” despite the lack of any significant evidence that voter fraud of any kind exists.

In reality, as Judge Richard Posner of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit wrote last year about voter ID efforts, these laws are “now widely regarded as a means of voter suppression rather than of fraud prevention.”

And that says everything. You have been caught in your lies. Continuing to lie only indicates how damn little you care about valid elections.

indigenous says

Dan8267 says

People who propose these voter ID laws are lying scumbags who do not want elections to be ran fairly and accurately. That is the bottom line.

This is what I mean by projecting.

What you lyingly call projecting, the rest of the world calls evidence.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/EuOT1bRYdK8

I should rename this thread to Dumbest Americans believe Fox News lies.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/PEtdDqVUPg8

that evidence cuts both ways....only proving both sides are corrupt as they come....

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2014/03/19/democrats-in-pennsylvania-accepted-bribes-to-oppose-voter-identifation-laws-n1811436

Pennsylvania Democrats have been caught red handed allegedly accepting bribes in return for their opposition to voter identification law in the Keystone State. According to PJ Media's J. Christian Adams, lumps of cash and expensive Tiffany & Co. jewelry were accepted by Democrats and exchanged for votes against voter identification legislation in 2012. Despite the bribes and the no votes, the legislation passed but was struck down by a judge earlier this year.

Naturally, the Democratic Pennsylvania Attorney General Kathleen Kane hasn't charged Democratic legislators for their alleged misconduct. As usual, Kane is crying racism over the allegations.

Dan8267 says

What you lyingly call projecting, the rest of the world calls evidence.

SoftShell says

that evidence cuts both ways....only proving both sides are corrupt as they come....

No, in this subject, it doesn't. Watch the above video.

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/columnists/falkenberg/article/Senior-tries-and-tries-to-get-ID-card-so-she-can-5226268.php?t=bd34f0742fd4bfc38c&t=bd34f0742f&t=bd34f0742f

This is the criminal voter that Voter ID laws are trying to stop from voting.

Braving the chill and drizzle, a nearly 80-year-old woman in a wheelchair rolls into the Texas Department of Public Safety building on U.S. 290 on a recent morning, her stiff upper lip softened only by the presence of an oxygen tube.

She doesn't know how many more times she can get her daughters to wheel her into the DPS office so she can get a state identification card that would allow her to comply with the newly implemented voter ID law.

Both times she tried, she was told there was something else, another document, another piece of proof she needed to convince the clerks that she's the woman pictured in her expired Texas driver's license.

"I just don't understand why they're trying to keep me from voting," says Troth, a former licensed vocational nurse who considers herself an independent. "To me, they're taking my rights away."

Determined to vote, Troth says she had a friend of the family drive her to the DPS office that day to get a Texas ID. She presented the woman at the front desk with various forms of identification - her old driver license, her Social Security and Medicare cards - but was told she needed her birth certificate.

The woman was short and rude, Troth says: "I was old and she was disrespectful."

Troth says the same "rude" woman was at the front desk and, this time, the woman told her the birth certificate wasn't good enough because the name on it differed from her married name.

"I told them I didn't get married out of the womb," Troth says.

The elderly widow was instructed to come back with her marriage license. And not only that. Because she lives with her other daughter, Alana Troth, that daughter would have to come in person to verify her mother's residency.

"I was mad as hell," Troth says. She got on the phone, calling DPS, Gov. Rick Perry, and finally, state Sen. John Whitmire, D-Houston. She gave him an earful about the wrongheadedness of a law that sets up roadblocks for older folks to vote. Once the veteran Democrat explained he'd voted against voter ID, he encouraged Troth to vote by mail. No photo ID is required for that form of voting. "Answer me this," Troth told me, "If you have to have all this proof to vote in person, why can anybody just vote by mail?" I didn't have a good answer.

So much for the myth of "anyone who can't get an ID shouldn't be allowed to vote because it's so damn easy to get a photo ID".

Voter ID and minorities? I don't get it. Doesn't everyone have some kind of official ID?

Dan8267 says

1. A tautology is a statement that is true by self-reference. For example, Too much of anything is bad.

"A tautology is a logical statement in which the conclusion is equivalent to the premise."

If you keep repeating yourself with no evidence that is a tautology.

Dan8267 says

1. A tautology is a statement that is true by self-reference. For example, Too much of anything is bad.

"A tautology is a logical statement in which the conclusion is equivalent to the premise."

If you keep repeating yourself with no evidence that is a tautology.

Dan8267 says

In order to be fair, Constitutional,

There was a time when you had to have skin in the game before you could vote. This was to prevent the tyranny of the majority.

I think only certain people should Vote too, Dan.
The strongest people with the biggest guns, and the best GI Joe Kunf-Fu Grip, that could whip all of the weaker people. Weak people shouldn't vote, I mean since you would like to weed out the dumb voters. Hell why stop there?

You guys don't have any problem wishing certain groups or people couldn't vote. But you oppose VoterID's because it might infringe on votesr?

You guys really are a conflicting lot.

this is damning evidence....

CaptainShuddup says

I think only certain people should Vote too, Dan.

The strongest people with the biggest guns, and the best GI Joe Kunf-Fu Grip, that could whip all of the weaker people. Weak people shouldn't vote, I mean since you would like to weed out the dumb voters. Hell why stop there?

You guys don't have any problem wishing certain groups or people couldn't vote. But you oppose VoterID's because it might infringe on votesr?

You guys really are a conflicting lot.

indigenous says

If you keep repeating yourself with no evidence that is a tautology.

Wow, now not only are conservatives entitled to their own facts, but now to their own definitions as well. From the link to Wolfram Mathworld I provided

A tautology is a logical statement in which the conclusion is equivalent to the premise. More colloquially, it is formula in propositional calculus which is always true

Tautologies have nothing to do with how many times they are repeated.

Furthermore, the conservatives (i.e. bigots) are the only ones on this threat repeating themselves without evidence. I have provided many references exposing the voter suppression laws for what they are. You, indigenous, simply have chosen to ignore all evidence which contradicts the lies you are spreading. Saying there is no evidence does not make the evidence presented go away, although I certainly wish that saying there is no indigenous would make indigenous go away.

CaptainShuddup says

Weak people shouldn't vote, I mean since you would like to weed out the dumb voters.

Actually, I did not propose that. Nice Straw Man argument.

This thread started as a demonstration that there is a direct correlation between ignorance and the desire to go to war in the Ukraine. It later morphed into a thread about voter suppression laws, which I am against, but you conservatives are for whenever they help get your criminal ilk elected.

But hey, you are correct in implying that getting rid of all the dumb voters will ensure no republican is ever elected again.

Where did we learn that from?
Oh yeah....when "marriage" was redefined by the left.
Thanks for the lesson!

Dan8267 says

Wow, now not only are conservatives entitled to their own facts, but now to their own definitions as well.

Dan8267 says

But hey, you are correct in implying that getting rid of all the dumb voters will ensure no republican is ever elected again.

Well wait a minute not so fast. If you get rid of the dumb voter, then they wont be there in the office spouting off their Conservative views. Therefore not enticing you hip clueless brain dead Liberal voters to counteract those dumb republican votes. They don't vote for anything, they only vote against ideas, concepts and people.

You get all of the petty political MORONS out of the picture both Republican ignorant nitwits, and the Liberal monkey see monkey say morons.

I bet the most viable voters that would be left, would be the business owners against the education institution.

I don't think there's enough teachers and professors to outvote 95% of the business owners in this country. And if there IS, then that's probably the FIRST thing wrong with our education system, and why you need 30 mortgage to pay for college.

Yeah just look at education, that mess was created by the educated and educators. It doesn't look too smart if you ask me.

indigenous says

Wow yourself. This is from the Merriam Webster.

Math definition trumps water-down colloquial ones. 'Nuff said.

Dan8267 says

'Nuff said.

And he said to himself, Oh Magoo your good.

SoftShell says

Where did we learn that from?

Oh yeah....when "marriage" was redefined by the left.

Thanks for the lesson!

OK, you conservatives win. We'll use only the original definition of marriage:
An arrangement between one man and any number of 6 to 16 year-old girls he buys from their fathers in exchange for a number of goats determined by the fertility of the girl. The arrangement transfers the right to beat the girl from the father to the husband.

Happy?

Somebody wrote a headline based on their opinion for the impetus for a sound reasonable act. And you post it as proof of what?

Dan why aren't you protesting Drivers license and voters registration cards? We've already got voters registration cards, why don't we just make them more official with your photo, actually while we're at it. How about a national ID card, that can double as your Voters Registration, your SSN, and any other Federal ID needs.

CaptainShuddup says

Yeah just look at education, that mess was created by the educated and educators.

The mess of our schooling system, especially college, was created by lack of regulation in the industry. Essentially, corporations called universities were able to gain government subsidies without price controls. This led to skimming vast quantities of wealth from tuition. The teachers get paid jack diddly. The money goes to the executives.

Add our corrupt and greedy banking system to the mix, and it's no wonder why schooling is unaffordable.

sbh says

This village idiot likes the way some things sound but he doesn't know what they mean.

There is a purpose in ridiculing the village idiot. The purpose is to make sure others don't take up his mantle.

sbh says

You have admirable patience Dan, but he cannot learn. He cannot grasp his ignorance. This village idiot likes the way some things sound but he doesn't know what they mean. He likes to contest the claims of others but is terrified of number and the act of counting so he relies on obfuscation and deceit . He likes name-calling but automatically accuses others of ad hominem and projection. No matter how you throw the bones it's always the same when confronting indigence and his ignorance.

Here with have a severe case of projection.

indigenous says

projection

projection = insert witty comeback here, for I haven't the creativity to think of one

Why do liberals hate poor people so much that they want to keep them living in shadows without an ID?

If a person can't get the most basic of necessities to FUNCTION in life (i.e. an ID) they can't get a job, go to school, get married, fly on a plane, leave the country, cash a check.......let alone vote in many States.

Why do liberals believe American citizens are so dumb or incapable of getting one of life's basic necessities........and want to keep them that way?

Can any liberal name a single OECD or 1st world country that doesn't require ID to vote?

socal2 says

Why do liberals hate poor people so much that they want to keep them living in shadows without an ID?

We don't. We want to make sure poor people can still vote, even poor people who want to vote Republican. That's why we aren't hypocrites like assholes like you.

Make the ID free. Make sure the lack of ID doesn't prevent any legitimate votes. If a legitimate voter without an ID tries to vote, verify his identify on the spot, give him a free ID, and let him vote. Make it quick, simple, and painless and you can have all the IDs you want.

Of course, that's not what Republican scum want. If the voter ID laws don't prevent legal voters from casting their votes, there is no point in those laws. The only purpose those laws serve is to rig elections by preventing legal votes.

socal2 says

Why do liberals believe American citizens are so dumb or incapable of getting one of life's basic necessities........and want to keep them that way?

It is only you scumbag conservatives who are calling people like Mrs. Troth dumb. And quite frankly, it's despicable and deplorable that you would call her dumb or blame her from not being able to get an ID after the enormous ordeal she went through several times attempting to get that ID. And to blame this poor old woman for the incompetence and callousness attitude of the state bureaucracy standing in the way of her getting an ID is a just plain fucking dick move on your part.

Read this story before you go shooting off your mouth about how only stupid and incompetent people don't have photo IDs.

And then ask yourself why the state doesn't want these people to have IDs. Sure, there are people advocating that the IDs be required to vote, but those people aren't advocating getting all voters these IDs. And that is why they are Unamerican scum. There is nothing more Unamerican than taking grandma's vote away. That's just low, even for a conservative.

Dan8267 says

This

This fact that three conservatives disliked the link to a story of an old woman trying to get a voter ID tells you all you need to know about what kind of people conservatives are. They will throw granny under the bus for a dime.

Dan8267 says

We don't. We want to make sure poor people can still vote, even poor people who
want to vote Republican

But you don't want to make sure poor people can get jobs or go to school Dan. You are not helping people by encouraging them to live in the shadows with no ID.

But... but... but you got a video of an old lady in a population of 300+ million who can't manage to get an ID. Therefore our massive country has to have ridiculous loose voter requirements like we are a 3rd world country or something.

Instead of advocating for a more efficient government to provide ID's for the tiny percentage of voters who don't have IDs, unthinking Liberals seem to want no ID's at all. What a solution!

Are all these countries racists for requiring ID's to vote?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/voter-id-proponents-point-to-laws-in-other-countries/2012/07/12/gJQAVlGCfW_blog.html

socal2 says

But you don't want to make sure poor people can get jobs or go to school Dan.

No, you ignorant slut, I DO want poor people to get an education and a productive, gainful job that lifts them out of poverty. Hell, I want housewives who aren't working to have an education, in case they vote, serve on a jury, or have to do any other civic duty.

socal2 says

You are not helping people by encouraging them to live in the shadows with no ID.

I'm not encouraging them to live with no ID. I'm making a hard stand that they should not be deprived of their Constitutional rights for not having one. And I'm stating that if the state wants them to have such an ID so god-damned badly, the state can take the steps needed to make sure they have that ID by verifying the identities of all these people and giving them the ID for free and quickly.

Read the story of Mrs. Troth, I posted. She went through way more shit than an old person on a respirator should ever have to go through, and she was still denied an ID by the state. The burden of proof that a person cannot vote should be on the state, not the individual.

And don't give me any crap that the state has no idea who Mrs. Toth is. I bet they had no problem collecting taxes from her and her husband for 45 years.

socal2 says

But... but... but you got a video of an old lady in a population of 300+ million who can't manage to get an ID.

I've also posted multiple sources of evidence that show that the voter ID laws violates and is intended to violate the rights of over 1 MILLION Americans. That isn't small shit, especially when those voters are in key districts.

So 1 million+ legal voters denied the right to vote to prevent ten cases of in-person voter fraud. Meanwhile, do nothing about absentee voter fraud, which is orders of magnitudes higher, because those fraudulent votes favor Republicans.

And why exactly can't the state get all these voters proper IDs if it's so damn important to the state?

socal2 says

Instead of advocating for a more efficient government to provide ID's for the tiny percentage of voters who don't have IDs, unthinking Liberals seem to want no ID's at all.

No, what we want is to make sure that scumbag politicians don't rig elections with voter suppression like they have throughout the majority of our country's history from 1776 to 1964, if not till this very day (see war on drugs).

The thing is, if Democrats were pulling this illegal Stalinist shit, we liberals would be bitching at them. It just so happens that only Republicans are this fucking slimy.

socal2 says

Are all these countries racists for requiring ID's to vote?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/voter-id-proponents-point-to-laws-in-other-countries/2012/07/12/gJQAVlGCfW_blog.html

Do those countries go out of their way to make sure that certain people can't get voter IDs? Or do they try to make sure every voter has an ID regardless of their politics or race?

Oh, and since you brought up race... The primary purpose of the War on Drugs was to keep blacks from voting. White Americans are more likely than black Americans to have used most kinds of illegal drugs, including cocaine, marijuana and LSD. Yet blacks are far more likely to go to prison for drug offenses. Such a discrepancy can only be explained by racism and is, by definition, racial discrimination.

We liberals believe that all persons are equal under law. And that's a concept you conservatives will never embrace. That's why conservatives aren't real Americans.

Dan8267 says

No, you ignorant slut, I DO want poor people to get an education and a
productive, gainful job that lifts them out of poverty.

Dress it up all you want Dan.

But this is just another unthinking Liberal position that enables people to live off the grid.

Less than .003% of the population can't get it together to have an ID to vote, so liberals think the solution is that we must have 3rd world voting regulations.

There are many ways to get granny her ID card to vote, paid for by the gov...
The only viable reason there is pushback on voter ID cards is the illegal immigrant vote.
They are the only group that are present to vote, without any kind of citizenship verification.
So, which party benefits from the illegal immigrant vote?
Which party opposes voter ID?
Case Closed.

socal2 says

Instead of advocating for a more efficient government to provide ID's for the tiny percentage of voters who don't have IDs, unthinking Liberals seem to want no ID's at all. What a solution!

socal2 says

Dress it up all you want Dan.

But this is just another unthinking Liberal position that enables people to live off the grid.

Dodge, dodge, dodge. And don't address any of the evidence that proves you wrong.

At least when I post something on this site, I am completely honest and sincere. From your post, I can tell you don't give a rat's ass about being honest.

SoftShell says

The only viable reason there is pushback on voter ID cards is the illegal immigrant vote.

Illegal immigrants don't do in-person voter fraud. It is highly risky. They have much to lose. And there is no benefit because you'd have to repeat the act hundreds of times to have even a margin impact in the polls and tens of thousands of times to influence an election.

In contrast, absentee ballots are far less risky and allow for orders of magnitudes of more influence.

Put simply, you are full of bull.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/FmMVe763Sbc